Lost the thread this was discussed in the crash, just confirming this is the T-Stat we discussed;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/EMP-Stewart-308-Thermostat-180-Degree-High-Flow-Copper-Steel-Each/331393774690?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
I have tested MR Gasket Balanced HP thermostat 180 (4364) and it works but it is not a classic style and has a rubber gasket inside but you cant seeing it. I have also tested Tuff Stuff Performance SuperCool High flow 180 thermostats (900180) and it worked great in our 428 engines with 2,12in, 54mm size. Se picture for different openings related to an old one in water. Erik
That's the style I used. Seems to give a better flow rate than the factory design. I used a 160 degree.
Quote from: 2112 on March 18, 2018, 02:31:20 AM
Lost the thread this was discussed in the crash, just confirming this is the T-Stat we discussed;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/EMP-Stewart-308-Thermostat-180-Degree-High-Flow-Copper-Steel-Each/331393774690?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
It looks like the same design . I think there is one MFG and they private label for Mr Gasket and others
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 18, 2018, 11:24:41 AM
That's the style I used. Seems to give a better flow rate than the factory design. I used a 160 degree.
160 is too low for optimum power and minimum wear.
Z
Quote from: zray on March 18, 2018, 05:47:31 PM
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 18, 2018, 11:24:41 AM
That's the style I used. Seems to give a better flow rate than the factory design. I used a 160 degree.
160 is too low for optimum power and minimum wear.
Z
Oh no here we go again LOL
Quote from: TLea on March 18, 2018, 05:54:49 PM
Quote from: zray on March 18, 2018, 05:47:31 PM
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 18, 2018, 11:24:41 AM
That's the style I used. Seems to give a better flow rate than the factory design. I used a 160 degree.
160 is too low for optimum power and minimum wear.
Z
Oh no here we go again LOL
+1. ;D
Quote from: TLea on March 18, 2018, 05:54:49 PM
Quote from: zray on March 18, 2018, 05:47:31 PM
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 18, 2018, 11:24:41 AM
That's the style I used. Seems to give a better flow rate than the factory design. I used a 160 degree.
160 is too low for optimum power and minimum wear.
Z
Oh no here we go again LOL
ha ha. wave a red flag, ya gotta expect the bull to attend the party.
I feel actual physical pain and mental anguish when I visualize that thermostat poppin' open @ 160. But hey, if someone thinks they know better than the engineers that designed and built these cars, then who am I to try and yank their head out of the sand ?
Z
when you live on the left coast and it is 110 degrees or better all summer long the angry hot big blocks love the T stat to open at 160 and while driving they usually settle in around 190-200 for optimum performance. Just some personal experiences from the left side.
Quote from: 427heaven on March 20, 2018, 06:56:07 PM
when you live on the left coast and it is 110 degrees or better all summer long the angry hot big blocks love the T stat to open at 160 and while driving they usually settle in around 190-200 for optimum performance. Just some personal experiences from the left side.
+1 . Just because it open's early doesn't mean it will stay at that temperature.
+2. Mine runs between 195 and 210 on the right coast.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 20, 2018, 07:06:21 PM
Quote from: 427heaven on March 20, 2018, 06:56:07 PM
when you live on the left coast and it is 110 degrees or better all summer long the angry hot big blocks love the T stat to open at 160 and while driving they usually settle in around 190-200 for optimum performance. Just some personal experiences from the left side.
+1 . Just because it open's early doesn't mean it will stay at that temperature.
of course not. But any extra time an engine operates below the optimal temperature range subjects the engine to increased wear.
It's well documented that a great percentage of wear does occur during start up and before the engine reaches full operating temps. Deliberately extending this "cold" period by using a early opening thermostat is nonsensical.
Z
I think we understand the law of averages that the auto manufacturers needed an AVERAGE temp T stat for cars shipped all over the world. 180 seemed to be the number- Since temps are wildly different in various parts of the world different heat ranges of T stats are available from 160-200 that's just when they open not where the engine operates at. You could write a book on variables from RPMS,LOADS,HORSEPOWER,FRONTAL SURFACE AREA,SPEEDS ETC. The common guy driving his common car,presumably stock 302-428 to the grocery store or local shows or whatever need not cringe when his T stat opens at 160 it will settle in to its 180+ range if not, a simple change to a different heat range will fix this problem typically in colder climants. :)
Quote from: 427heaven on March 21, 2018, 09:30:04 AM
I think we understand the law of averages that the auto manufacturers needed an AVERAGE temp T stat for cars shipped all over the world. 180 seemed to be the number-......."
Well, 180 was NOT the number that the Ford engineers were thinking of in 1966 across the entire V-8 range of engines, small blocks, and the big blocks that were going into the full size Fords too. They wanted the operating temperature to be 190 minimum, and 200 - 212 was optimum.
Am still looking for my '67/'68 shop manual, so can't say for sure, . But I do know for certain that '65/'66/'67 HiPo and the & C code 289's, as well as the big block engines going in the full size cars in 1966, did not come from the factory with a 180 degree thermostat. They came with 190 / 192 thermostats. Those don't even fully oven until the engine is 210 - 212 degrees F.
I'm always amazed at the number of people who think 210 - 212 degrees is overheating.....
Z
I overheat at 210
Quote from: zray on March 21, 2018, 10:21:55 AM
Quote from: 427heaven on March 21, 2018, 09:30:04 AM
I think we understand the law of averages that the auto manufacturers needed an AVERAGE temp T stat for cars shipped all over the world. 180 seemed to be the number-......."
Well, 180 was NOT the number that the Ford engineers were thinking of in 1966 across the entire V-8 range of engines, small blocks, and the big blocks that were going into the full size Fords too. They wanted the operating temperature to be 190 minimum, and 200 - 212 was optimum.
Am still looking for my '67/'68 shop manual, so can't say for sure, . But I do know for certain that '65/'66/'67 HiPo and the & C code 289's, as well as the big block engines going in the full size cars in 1966, did not come from the factory with a 180 degree thermostat. They came with 190 / 192 thermostats. Those don't even fully oven until the engine is 210 - 212 degrees F.
I'm always amazed at the number of people who think 210 - 212 degrees is overheating.....
Z
You are absolutely correct. These are 12 psi systems which means overheating with 50/50 is around 240.
I know that the issue with the thermostats is really that particularly with the big blocks, they can be very difficult to restart when hot, so people tend to want to over cool them.
I also see this even with racers that want to cool the oil down to around 180 degrees and take steps to do that.
Somewhere over 212F is where you want the oil temps to be. Probably a minimum of 220 is about right.
The discussion of -0100 with the oil cooler is a good example. The documentation showing that oil temp over 230 needed to have cooling considerations. TO ME clearly the number that Engineering was aiming at was 230.
The higher the compression ratios on these engines, even the 289's, the more difficult it is to even turn them over hot.
I truly believe that is where all this issue stems from.
I have seen my starter wire SMOKING from trying to restart a hot engine. Mr.Gaines is going to be very upset when he reads this BECAUSE I MELTED an original "production" starter solenoid. Melted to the point that it could be in a Salvatore Dalli abstract painting. His painting is valuable. My solinoid isn't since it's now garbage?
One VERY critical factor I have found is that virtually no one checks the sealing ability of the radiator caps.
I bought a Stant cooling system tester kit and have found it to be invaluable. You pressurize the complete system with it to make sure it holds pressure AND you pressure test the caps with it.
It was a hundred bucks and worth it's weight in gold!
I'm embarrassed to admit that I had several caps that wouldn't hold the pressure.
The "Mustangs" need to hold 12 psi and the Pantera 15. If they don't, you get these phantom over heating issues.
I get the part that people are stubborn and don't want to listen. It took me thirty years to get on board with this and see the light. You could use me as the poster boy for that? ;)
The first thing I do with a new radiator cap is test it for pressure holding ability. I would say that one out of three or one out of four NEW caps leak from my testing.
That right there is a problem if you can't test them yourself? ;D
The other place to look is the neck of the radiator itself. If it isn't perfectly flat, it won't permit the cap to seal entirely.
I have seen 289's with pop-up pistons (a c/r of around 11.8:1) not able to turn over hot with the stock equipment starter. MANY GT500 owners have gone to aftermarket starters for the cranking ability. Stock even 10:1 is marginal for the starter. Cold ok, but hot, probably not until the thing cools off in a hour or so?
Quote from: 6s1802 on March 21, 2018, 11:00:49 AM
I overheat at 210
That is NOT POSSIBLE IF your system is holding pressure. That simply means YOUR system is open to atmospheric pressure.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 21, 2018, 11:12:04 AM
Quote from: 6s1802 on March 21, 2018, 11:00:49 AM
I overheat at 210
That is NOT POSSIBLE IF your system is holding pressure. That simply means YOUR system is open to atmospheric pressure.
+1000
I would ask 6s1802 what is your definition of overheating, what are the symptoms ? As ShelbyDoug says, if your system is holding 12 - 13 lbs. pressure, the coolant cannot boil at 210 or even 220.
Z
I think one of us should post the anti-freeze chart here that shows boiling temps with 50/50 at various temps?
I don't have the time at the moment. Maybe later? Anyone want to do it? I think it is on the Prestone web page?
Is it still good to drill a small hole top side of thermostat as suggested in original posting on old site?
Quote from: csheff on March 21, 2018, 11:39:56 AM
Is it still good to drill a small hole top side of thermostat as suggested in original posting on old site?
Yes
Quote from: csheff on March 21, 2018, 11:39:56 AM
Is it still good to drill a small hole top side of thermostat as suggested in original posting on old site?
It is beneficial on the original style to allow air pockets to bleed out. I doubt you would need it on the high flow design, if there's even room to drill the flange.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 21, 2018, 11:32:22 AM
I think one of us should post the anti-freeze chart here that shows boiling temps with 50/50 at various temps?
I don't have the time at the moment. Maybe later? Anyone want to do it? I think it is on the Prestone web page?
couldn't navigate the Prestone site to find the chart, but there's this:
https://durathermfluids.com/pdf/techpapers/pressure-boiling-point.pdf
note, found a lot of misleading info on the Evans waterless coolant website:
https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/benefits/no-overheating/
".....Water turns into steam at 212°F. Mixing traditional ethylene glycol antifreeze with water in a 50-50 ratio increases the boiling point to 223°F, which is close to the operating temperature of an engine. Evans waterless coolants have a boiling point of over 375°F, far above the operating temperature of the engine....."
They conveniently leave out the fact that when the system is pressurized, the boiling point of 50/50 antifreeze is much much higher.
Z
NOTE: at the bottom of the page Evan's does mention that pressurized systems have a higher boiling point, only the poo-poo the effectiveness of the pressure on actual boiling point. not impressed .
That's the chart. Thanks.
It clearly shows that in order to boil over at 212 it would need to have no anti-freeze and completely open to the atmosphere.
The Pantera people constantly go through this "I'm overheating" thing.
They see a water temp of around 240 on a gauge that only goes up to 230, in a 15psi system that is good for 259.
With the Shelby's it's mostly the big block SEEMS to run hotter? It DOESN'T. It just takes up more room in the engine compartment, so it's tighter quarters. The flow through the radiator dumps into the engine compartment with less room to dissipate into.
Plus you have a temp gauge that doesn't show you actual numbers. Just high/low.
"Just adds to the paranoia. Like a Police car behind you". 8)
It is undeniable though that it can be a challenge to restart a hot 427 or 428. No question. I've even heard this from the 427 Cobra owners back in the day.
The 427 s/c had two batteries behind the passenger seat for access but you don't need two batteries for access, just to restart a hot engine.
A Tilton starter fixes a lot of that issue though AND you need to keep the battery as fully charged as you can. That means you need to run the engine for about 20 minutes EVERY DAY with an original type battery. Plus the original battery is debatably, as batteries go, on the attractive side but those things would turn into a corpse the first winter it went through.
Doug, I wanted to thank you for breaking your long posts up into paragraphs. Even if they are short ones.
Those long run-on single paragraph posts, with zero breaks, are murder to read thru on a screen.
Quote from: 2112 on March 21, 2018, 12:47:03 PM
Doug, I wanted to thank you for breaking your long posts up into paragraphs. Even if they are short ones.
Those long run-on single paragraph posts, with zero breaks, are murder to read thru on a screen.
Even harder to write. Sorry. One thought brings up another and if two people tell two people...etc
They actually are multiple thoughts and need to be punctuated as such or better. I just don't think some answers are necessarily simple ones, just presented better by me. Me bad.
160 is too low for optimum power and minimum wear.Z [/quote]
O.K.. Allow me to jump in here and stir the pot some.
This simple, strait-to-the-point statement is not necessarily incorrect, but also not necessarily accurate, depending on the many variables at hand. i.e. "IT DEPENDS" ;)
There are some ultimate requirements and limitations associated with nominal engine temperature as perceived (note that the gauge value does not necessarily indicate the actual sum at critical points), but, this required value as delivered by the thermostat may vary. And, this could definitely turn into a book, lets just list a few simplistic observations.
The oil needs to be of a temperature which promotes good flow; adequate heat to add vaporization of fuel particularly within the induction tract, but not to ignore said value within the combustion area also; and evaporation of water condensation within the crankcase; but, not excessive temperature values which may exceed these requirements, and may offer negative effects including, but not limited to, initiating a detonation scenario upon the combustion process.
If I were to identify a minimum & maximum temperature sum of the typical American V8 engines' oil and water, ideally before one entertained placing this engine under any significant some of duress: 140° - 220°, give or take? A few considerations for the cooler or warmer operating temperature might be:
COOLER = horsepower potential due in part to cooler & denser inlet charge, reduction of detonation & pre-ignition events, improved lubrication & cooling values of the oil providing reduced wear on load-bearing surfaces, etc.; perhaps indicating that for higher R.P.M.s, loads and durations, one may chose to utilize a cooler thermostat value. Also, in the warmer environments, unfortunately the cooler radiator is less efficient as increasing the temperature differential between it and the ambient temperature increases its' effectiveness.
WARMER = improved "efficiency" with improved air/fuel mixing and combustion (particularly at low engine speeds), improved emissions acceptance, also a reduction in wear from "fuel-washing" and pollution of the crankcase, and with the reduction of viscosity of oil (due to heat) a reduction in pumping losses, older engines with excessive clearances might even "seal-up" better with heat and reap an improvement in operation, etc. Oh, and for the folks in the northern territories, the heater works better! Therefor, if one "short-hops", and or "puts-about", I would definitely install a warmer thermostat value.
One of the real concerns, often overlooked, within the subject of engine temperature is not so much whether it's 20° more or less, but rather if it can be maintained at a constant sum. As the castings do not really care what temperature they are in operation (within reason), but do change dimensionally, and therefor loading and surface wear characteristics of so-called "familiarized wear surfaces" fluctuate imparting increased wear rates.
Just a few thoughts, left out a lot, but this could consume one in study. ;)
Scott.
Instead of exactly when a thermostat starts to open, maybe a good question to ask would be do all thermostats flow equally once they are fully open, at say 200°?
Poor flow would be indicated by a steady rising operating temperature. Hot spots inside of the engine are more important.
Well we could go on forever with this, but what about pinging when you are just toodling around the neighborhood at 200 degrees temp say cruising the LV strip at 110 degrees outside. All things equal quality, of fuel,timing,carbs etc. In many of my cars I don't even run a T stat I just change the hole size in a water flow restricter. your not trying to open up anything your just trying to regulate your coolant flow capabilities. With this you can find the sweet spot in any car. Not rocket science,just a little trial and error.
Here's a question. Why do we only hear the "overheating" complaint for the Shelby's and the Cobras?
What about the 352, 390, 410, 427, 428 FE Galaxie's, Thunderbirds, Cougars, and F150's, etc?
Listening to the complaints, it makes it sound to me that the entire FE line is under engineered and a total mistake to put into production? It doesn't make sense?
The two different 54mm thermostat I mention is high flow and already have small holes from factory. Not easy to see but still there in my pictures. Erik
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 21, 2018, 04:01:59 PM
Here's a question. Why do we only hear the "overheating" complaint for the Shelby's and the Cobras?
What about the 352, 390, 410, 427, 428 FE Galaxie's, Thunderbirds, Cougars, and F150's, etc?
Listening to the complaints, it makes it sound to me that the entire FE line is under engineered and a total mistake to put into production? It doesn't make sense?
With the exception of the Cougar the other cars mentioned have a substantially larger engine compartment for air to flow through. The Mustang /Cougar engine compartment is filled side to side and front to back with engine . There is very little room for air circulation compared to others. I can only guess why you are not hearing about cooling issues with the BB Cougars. Maybe you aren't networked with the Cougar crowd like you are with other performance Ford cars.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 21, 2018, 06:17:34 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 21, 2018, 04:01:59 PM
Here's a question. Why do we only hear the "overheating" complaint for the Shelby's and the Cobras?
What about the 352, 390, 410, 427, 428 FE Galaxie's, Thunderbirds, Cougars, and F150's, etc?
Listening to the complaints, it makes it sound to me that the entire FE line is under engineered and a total mistake to put into production? It doesn't make sense?
With the exception of the Cougar the other cars mentioned have a substantially larger engine compartment for air to flow through. The Mustang /Cougar engine compartment is filled side to side and front to back with engine . There is very little room for air circulation compared to others. I can only guess why you are not hearing about cooling issues with the BB Cougars. Maybe you aren't networked with the Cougar crowd like you are with other performance Ford cars.
Hum? Maybe?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 21, 2018, 06:17:34 PM
I can only guess why you are not hearing about cooling issues with the BB Cougars.
Having had an R code and several 390 Cougars back in the day most summer city driving required having the heater going to keep the gauge off H. Had to retard the timing to get a re-start when hot along with 2 gauge cables, or wait 15-20 minutes.
Quote from: Bigblock on March 22, 2018, 09:19:53 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 21, 2018, 06:17:34 PM
I can only guess why you are not hearing about cooling issues with the BB Cougars.
Having had an R code and several 390 Cougars back in the day most summer city driving required having the heater going to keep the gauge off H. Had to retard the timing to get a re-start when hot along with 2 gauge cables, or wait 15-20 minutes.
The Ford Motorsport "electronic" ignition that replaced the points systems retards the ignition on start for easier starting. There is a California only version which I think the number is retarded 14 degrees at start up.
The US version retards it also, but not as much. Makes cranking a hot engine much easier.
I wish the hood louvers on the Shelby hoods were relocated so I don't need to look through this wavy hot air while I am driving?
I'd like to know what the exact number is on "H"?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 21, 2018, 06:17:34 PM...I can only guess why you are not hearing about cooling issues with the BB Cougars...
I've owned my R code vert (with a/c) for 32 years & it only overheated 2x: once due to a bad water pump, and once due to a bad head gasket.
As far as the engine taking up more space in the engine compartment and having more air circulation issues around it, I'm not going to say no.
I had a Boss 351 in the car for over ten years. It fits the engine compartment as much as an FE does.
I had/have the battery in the trunk with the "Ford" kit and cable, and used a BB radiator. I can say that in all that time I NEVER had an issue with it running hot or hard starting, and that's a ten or eleven foot long battery cable?
In my case I can tell you exactly what the gauge temp said because I have SW gauges in place of the temp and fuel gauges in the dash. Just because the temp is on H doesn't mean it is overheating. Not on a Ford gauge.
My 351c would run to 210 to 215 and never go higher. When on the road at parkway speeds it would drop down to about 185.
I don't post this to criticize, just to compare information.
A Cleveland in a "68 Mustang" chassis is a big momma. It's up against the shock towers like a FE is.
Just to add icing to this cake, this car is factory air conditioned also.
So I'm thinking that the size of the engine is part of it, but it doesn't tell the whole story?
I will say that I did put a Tilton starter in the car almost immediately and any and all starting issues SEEMINGLY disappeared forever. The ONLY big case starter that would work was the ACCELL big ugly yellow one.
I think of it this way. There is a 12 pound system in the car for a reason. 230 to 240 operating temperatures are not out of line at all. Restarting it hot is another issue, not to mention ignition timing disagreements with the pump fuel octane?
ONE of the old ways of setting ignition timing is to turn it up until the car pings going up a hill, then back it off a couple of degrees. The issue now with the timing is the RATE at which it reaches full advance. Not necessarily the total number.
Remember that when new, these things only had a 12,000 mile/one year warranty. There is a reason for that besides Ford being cheap but I think that the FE's in particular need tons of maintenance attention?
I think mine was 240-250 when pinned on "H". I'm sure they all read different. I removed my vacuum tree and installed a mechanical gauge that I checked in boiling water for accuracy.
There was a 12 page discussion about my temperature problems before the crash. Lots of good info, but somewhat painful. Bottom line is you have to optimize everything in the system such as water jacket cleanliness, thermostat, lower hose spring, water pump impeller, radiator, fan and clutch.
You then have to think about timing, advance curve, and mixture.
I did all that. I used a new Autozone fan clutch for diagnosis and found that the car ran hotter with that than the rebuilt original Ford piece, so I assumed my clutch must be good. I finally decided to replace the fan clutch with one of Chris Brown's reproductions, and instantly dropped 20 degrees. Best money I ever spent! Lesson learned!
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 22, 2018, 11:19:33 AM
I think mine was 240-250 when pinned on "H". I'm sure they all read different. I removed my vacuum tree and installed a mechanical gauge that I checked in boiling water for accuracy.
There was a 12 page discussion about my temperature problems before the crash. Lots of good info, but somewhat painful. Bottom line is you have to optimize everything in the system such as water jacket cleanliness, thermostat, lower hose spring, water pump impeller, radiator, fan and clutch.
You then have to think about timing, advance curve, and mixture.
I did all that. I used a new Autozone fan clutch for diagnosis and found that the car ran hotter with that than the rebuilt original Ford piece, so I assumed my clutch must be good. I finally decided to replace the fan clutch with one of Chris Brown's reproductions, and instantly dropped 20 degrees. Best money I ever spent! Lesson learned!
I agree. This is what I mean about the BB needing lots of maintenance attention.
+1 on the fan clutch. For such a simple device, it's a life saver.
Anyone know of a way to definitively test a fan clutch? I hated to go from a rebuilt original to a repro, but so glad I did now!
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 22, 2018, 11:47:35 AM
Anyone know of a way to definitively test a fan clutch? I hated to go from a rebuilt original to a repro, but so glad I did now!
I don't. Ask the rebuilder. It probably needs to be hooked up to a variable speed "lathe" device where you can change speeds and measure the change to the the fan speed?
Sounds like a complex device to build to test just one?
Usually, they are under $100 and you swap it out to diagnose it. The repro is around $400, so it's a bit more painful. That's why I used the cheap one for testing. Big mistake.
The one I need is a C7ZX. It's a pretty rare one and even if I found one, that doesn't mean it would be good as is.
I've HAD to make decisions like you made myself. So that becomes a $500 fan clutch instead of a $400 one?
Been there done that. I probably will make the same mistake again in the future. A leopard can't change his spots.
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 22, 2018, 11:47:35 AM
Anyone know of a way to definitively test a fan clutch? I hated to go from a rebuilt original to a repro, but so glad I did now!
That even an expert would be hard pressed to tell from an original
Quote from: 2112 on March 21, 2018, 03:13:25 PM
Instead of exactly when a thermostat starts to open, maybe a good question to ask would be do all thermostats flow equally once they are fully open, at say 200°?
the factory stock 190/192 thermostats are not fully open at 200 F. They open fully at 210-212 F if they are within factory specifications. .The shop manual is a pretty handy reference to know those specifications. I keep one in the garage, and one in the bathroom. So no matter where I am, there is good reading material close by.
As far as your question goes, yes they all flow equally when open if from the same manufacturer.
Z
Quote from: zray on March 23, 2018, 02:17:25 AM
As far as your question goes, yes they all flow equally when open if from the same manufacturer.
Z
I thought someone mentioned one manufacturer's flowed better than the others.
There are two sizes for the FE's. The Shelby's take the small one. The Cobras take the large one. How much that effects the flow, I don't know but there has to be some kind of effect?
There was only one type back in the day. There are now "high flow" designs. This is one area where you want to use the improved high flow design as opposed to an original Ford stamped unit.
Quote from: 2112 on March 23, 2018, 02:23:46 AM
Quote from: zray on March 23, 2018, 02:17:25 AM
As far as your question goes, yes they all flow equally when open if from the same manufacturer.
Z
I thought someone mentioned one manufacturer's flowed better than the others.
I tried a few high flow thermostats, but not all of them by any means. The Stant, Milodon, And Edlebbrock are the ones I tried. They may flow more than the original Ford / MotorCraft thermostats. I have no reason to doubt them.
But in my case this increased flow did not translate into. a lower coolant temperature as measured by my mechanical AutoMeter temperature gauge. This is completely anecdotal as I wasn't adhering to scientific protocols in my comparisons, but the increased flow, if any, didn't translate into a lower engine temperature for me.
On the other hand, a FlowKooler water pump did lower the engine temperature when driving around town in stop and go traffic, by nearly 10 degrees.
certainly YMMV.
Z
I don't think the issue is with a thermostat that is restrictive. People remove the thermostats entirely and get the same results.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 23, 2018, 01:39:26 PM
I don't think the issue is with a thermostat that is restrictive. People remove the thermostats entirely and get the same results.
+ 1000 ..... just takes a while to overheat, if that's what it was doing before.
I was taught to have a checklist when trying to diagnose a tricky overheating issue. By tricky I mean the obvious stuff has already been checked, like a loose belt, low coolant level, bad thermostat that won't hold pressure, collapsing radiator hose or other hose blockage, etc.
First start where the heat is produced, and work backward from there:
1st flush the block at best you can. If a lot of crud comes out, consider having a radiator shop do a professional block flush
If car still overheats, then ...
2nd. Check radiator flow with an IR gun as the car goes from cold to warm(er). Any cold areas or areas that are slow to warn up, indicate a plugged up tube. Have the radiator professionally boiled out.
If car still overheats, then ...
3rd. Check water pump for broken or damaged impeller. Replace water pump if in doubt.
More often than not, problem overheating is a combination of #1 and #2. It's amazing how much a radiator filter will help in preventing overheating issues from retuning. I like the Tefba filter, and AeroFlow is making a nice black anodized aluminum version of it
https://www.aeroflowperformance.com/af64-2043
after I had 6s1117's engine overhauled in 1999, & even though the block was boiled out, I put on a Tefba filter. That thing continued to catch iron dust and iron grit for the next 2+ years until it slowly tapered off. Over a 1/2 cup total. All of that would've ended up plugging the radiator w/o the filter in place.
Z
I'm thinking that it may be worthwhile to ceramic coat the exhaust manifolds? That stuff does reduce radiated heat which is the majority of the problem.
GT40's used a lot of sheet metal ducting. It's ironic that such a small car would have more room to do so then the Mustang chassis and a big block.
Well, if we are covering overheating, it goes without saying that if timing and fuel delivery aren't correct, you can be fighting that source of excess heat generation as well.
Quote from: 2112 on March 23, 2018, 05:34:02 PM
Well, if we are covering overheating, it goes without saying that if timing and fuel delivery aren't correct, you can be fighting that source of excess heat generation as well.
It's not necessarily overheating. It's more the inability of the engine compartment to disperse the heat.
Do all FE's use the same thermostat? With the '67 housing/neck being different, does it take a unique T-stat?
Quote from: 2112 on March 24, 2018, 04:20:22 PM
Do all FE's use the same thermostat? With the '67 housing/neck being different, does it take a unique T-stat?
No they all did not use the same thermostat. The earlier FE's used the larger diameter thermostat and the later (Approx. Dec 66 on up) FE's used the smaller diameter thermostat.
+1 And large diameter holes flow better then small ones- :)
Here's two PI intakes showing the difference in the thermostat hole size.
On the left is a C6AE-H on the right C7AE-F
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/107-250318073548.jpeg)
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/107-250318073648.jpeg)
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 24, 2018, 04:35:38 PM
Quote from: 2112 on March 24, 2018, 04:20:22 PM
Do all FE's use the same thermostat? With the '67 housing/neck being different, does it take a unique T-stat?
No they all did not use the same thermostat. The earlier FE's used the larger diameter thermostat and the later (Approx. Dec 66 on up) FE's used the smaller diameter thermostat.
Do you know what diameters those are? As an example, I know a 351C uses a 2.12" O.D. diameter
The indentation on the FE housing that I have is 2-1/16". So probably 2" is what the thermostat is. I have some thermostats in the "drawer" in my shop but I'm not there right now.
I just happen to have the housing with me playing with it. Contemplating this surgery thing on the Scott Drake unit.