My father was a bodyman. He started a shop in Rogue River Oregon 1972. Because I loved cars and him and he me I worked there from high school on until I left at age 22 then painted car professionally until age 29 when I went to college, then on to law school and a new career.
When I purchase a car—I want original paint—thus when I decided to purchase a Shelby Mustang, a GT350, I wanted a car that had as much of the original original paint as I could find. This year (2019–just in case the server is backed up this time—hopefully highly reliable cloud service) Stephen Becker brokered the sale of 6S2148 between myself and Bill DenBeste; 6S2148 has—for the most part—original paint. I personally consider it an interesting to point to ponder: why would a person who spent 12 years in the automobile refinishing profession only settle for a vehicle with almost all original paint?
So how and why am I writing this?
1) First, how: to establish that I had experience painting, start to finish in automotive refinishing,
2) Second to point out interesting differences between 6S2148 and the cars redone to show car levels,
3) Third to explore why people prefer original paint or would rather have a car with refinishing materials and expertise that incorporate modern innovations in both areas:
4) Take the pulse of the real Shelby experts—guys who have been preserving these important cars for decades, and continue to do so, to get their views.
Caveat one (1) My new friends—please understand I certainly love the fact that the procedures for painting these cars have evolved with the profession of refinishing in terms of materials and expertise. However, that is one way to preserve these cars. Without judgement, there is an alternative way: that is to restore them back to the standards of the day when they were built.
It's interesting for me to study the paint on 6S2148. When I do, it curious to me, but totally understandable, for example—that the blue stripes that came stock on my car—are so harsh in terms of their appliacation: the edges for example—there was no nice striping tapes by 3M back then, which pulled off the base paint— in nice clean lines; clean crisp lines I see on all the restored cars—the original tape lines are typical of the 3M tape products I used. Paper tape lines that leave lines that are by no means crisp, clean, lines.
Thesis: is restoring a car to the standards of the day they were built serving the car? Or is it a disservice to the car and better to restore these cars to the present day standards?
Tin, Everyone has their desire and this isn't a service or dis-service to the car. You do realize the car isn't human and doesn't care right :) (I struggle with this as well sometimes). It boils down to investment and what the owner wants. There are some that will buy a survior type car, pull the engine, trans and suspension and race it. Some will take an original car and make it better to them because the paint is tired and they want a car that looks perfect (or better) from the day it was on the lot. It depends on what your goals are and what YOU want from the hobby.
Is your struggle that your original paint is tired and your wondering if you need to get it repainted? If that is your quandry, remember its only original once and I personally wouldn't touch it but you will have to explain to everyone that it is original paint and your not just a "lazy" owner. If I were you and wanted a higher paint quality car, I would find another one that has been restored and sell or trade 2148.
There is a crowd for all types. Like Rat Rods, they make my skin crawl and IMO are the biggest piece of junks out there.
I will jump in on this discussion because I have a little experience with the emotions you are experiencing. I have had many cars over the years that I needed to make a decision with. Your opinions may vary from mine but I prefer excellence for most parts of a car. I enjoy having a day 2 build because that's the way we did back in the day. Having a few more coins than when I was teenager allows me to have a nicer paint job or better engine then back in my youth. I REALLY don't like vintage worn out paint,engines,upholstery, etc. For me a stunning restoration to better then new is what I prefer,but some cars like my 63 split window original survivor car I felt I had to leave it alone,it pained me more then words could describe to leave it alone but I did against my better judgement. So I guess everyone has that road to cross with different cars, but most look and drive better then they did 50 years ago with a new restoration. :) Just my 2 cents.
Tin,
Are you taking your car to SAAC 43?
If you do, I think you will be surprised by the attention that original paint gets. I took my restored GT500 convertible to SAAC 41 and it barely got a second glance. The car across the aisle from it got all the attention. It was pretty much the same car in red, but unrestored, owned by "Poor Ron" here on the forum. There was a crowd around that car all day, including me.
Paul
Interesting topic.
Back when these cars were coveted for their performance and appearance and investment issues were not really a concern like they are today, owners who loved and enjoyed their cars would more than likely paint a car to make it as nice as possible. One reason original is rare.
When a car is completely original paint, you know for sure that it was never wrecked.
When it is partly original, you know some panels are undamaged but also something happened to require painting some of the car.
I have a car (non-Shelby)like yours. The new paint is way better than the original. I like seeing that the car was undamaged, but also find myself wishing the previous owner just made the whole car as nice as the repainted part.
Quote from: Greg on March 24, 2018, 08:30:29 AM
Tin, Everyone has their desire... It depends on what your goals are and what YOU want from the hobby.
Is your struggle that your original paint is tired and your wondering if you need to get it repainted? If that is your quandry, remember its only original once and I personally wouldn't touch it but you will have to explain to everyone that it is original paint and your not just a "lazy" owner. If I were you and wanted a higher paint quality car, I would find another one that has been restored and sell or trade 2148.
+1
In today's world, originality seems to be "worth more" to many - just look at the "Barn Find" craze, where a dirty, unkempt, non-running car brings as much [or more] $$ vs a nicely restored example.
Dr Simeone wrote an entire book about Preservation - http://www.simeonemuseum.org/product/stewardship-historically-important-automobiles
At the end of the day, it is all about what YOU want. Good luck 8)
I'd keep the paint where it is as it is.
But it's ur car.
I get the preservation thing when the car is like 90% original.
When it is a mixed bag, I don't see how having uniform, beautiful paint hurts in desirability. JMHO 🤔
The purpose of "Concourse" is to historically preserve or represent the cars historically accurately.
Your description of the paint on your car is a PERFECT representation of why they should be valued.
There isn't anything wrong with a super modern paint finish except for one thing, that's not historically correct.
My personal opinion is that an accurate original finish should be given an insurmountable points advantage in that category.
The judges will tell you that the subject is settled, that there is a survivor category for cars like this, but the reality is that it is still an ongoing debate and "it ain't over yet". ;)
I am for sure going to be publicly reprimanded about this comment and it will be emphasized that this is just my opinion. I agree. These posts are all OPINIONS. Even dissenting ones.
Quote from: 2112 on March 24, 2018, 12:26:08 PM
I get the preservation thing when the car is like 90% original.
When it is a mixed bag, I don't see how having uniform, beautiful paint hurts in desirability. JMHO 🤔
+1
I think that an original car should be left original...as long as it is in good shape. I know that "good shape" is a relative term. However, I've seen original cars that looked...well, original. Crappy paint, rust under the hood, leaks, etc. To me, it really depends on the condition as well as the originality. I personally have no desire to drive a crappy looking car that is "original". Driving an original, nice survivor...absolutely! And, I LOVE a completely restored, pristine car as well.
I think it comes down to preference, as well as the overall condition of originality. And, if it's not very original, I would restore to better than original.
Just my 2 cents. :)
Restoring a car to day one does honor to the car. Restoring to the standards of today honors the market and owners pocketbook at sale time.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 24, 2018, 12:47:10 PM
The purpose of "Concourse" is to historically preserve or represent the cars historically accurately.
Your description of the paint on your car is a PERFECT representation of why they should be valued.
There isn't anything wrong with a super modern paint finish except for one thing, that's not historically correct.
My personal opinion is that an accurate original finish should be given an insurmountable points advantage in that category.
The judges will tell you that the subject is settled, that there is a survivor category for cars like this, but the reality is that it is still an ongoing debate and "it ain't over yet". ;)
I am for sure going to be publicly reprimanded about this comment and it will be emphasized that this is just my opinion. I agree. These posts are all OPINIONS. Even dissenting ones.
Begs the question. Does every restored car have to gunning for points in competition?
^^
We forget that most cars restored today will never see judging.
Just cruising.
Like show dogs.
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 24, 2018, 11:18:09 AM
Tin,
Are you taking your car to SAAC 43?
If you do, I think you will be surprised by the attention that original paint gets. I took my restored GT500 convertible to SAAC 41 and it barely got a second glance. The car across the aisle from it got all the attention. It was pretty much the same car in red, but unrestored, owned by "Poor Ron" here on the forum. There was a crowd around that car all day, including me.
Paul
You may be right, I have several pictures of poor ron's car. I looked through the rest and couldn't find another red '68 convertible. Since I have a KR convertible, I usually pay attention to them.
Reread post, "same car
in red".
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/187-240318164357.jpeg)
Is this it?
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/187-240318174209.jpeg)
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 24, 2018, 11:18:09 AM
Tin,
Are you taking your car to SAAC 43?
If you do, I think you will be surprised by the attention that original paint gets. I took my restored GT500 convertible to SAAC 41 and it barely got a second glance. The car across the aisle from it got all the attention. It was pretty much the same car in red, but unrestored, owned by "Poor Ron" here on the forum. There was a crowd around that car all day, including me.
Paul
Hey Paul,
I'll be there. So will 6s2148. For all of it including the track days. I'm really looking forward to it!
I won't be changing any of the paint as far as I can foresee. I'll leave all that to the next care taker to wrestle with. My decision is made. But is sure am looking forward to seeing all of those beautiful like new Shelby's and meeting all of you like minded people.
Tin
Tin
Quote from: Tinface on March 24, 2018, 03:18:12 AM
My father was a bodyman. He started a shop in Rogue River Oregon 1972. Because I loved cars and him and he me I worked there from high school on until I left at age 22 then painted car professionally until age 29 when I went to college, then on to law school and a new career.
When I purchase a car—I want oripaint—thus when I decided to purchase a Shelby Mustang, a GT350, I wanted a car that had as much of the original original paint as I could find. This year (2019–just in case the server is backed up this time—hopefully highly reliable cloud service) Stephen Becker brokered the sale of 6S2148 between myself and Bill DenBeste; 6S2148 has—for the most part—original paint. I personally consider it an interesting to point to ponder: why would a person who spent 12 years in the automobile refinishing profession only settle for a vehicle with almost all original paint?
So how and why am I writing this?
1) First, how: to establish that I had experience painting, start to finish in automotive refinishing,
2) Second to point out interesting differences between 6S2148 and the cars redone to show car levels,
3) Third to explore why people prefer original paint or would rather have a car with refinishing materials and expertise that incorporate modern innovations in both areas:
4) Take the pulse of the real Shelby experts—guys who have been preserving these important cars for decades, and continue to do so, to get their views.
Caveat one (1) My new friends—please understand I certainly love the fact that the procedures for painting these cars have evolved with the profession of refinishing in terms of materials and expertise. However, that is one way to preserve these cars. Without judgement, there is an alternative way: that is to restore them back to the standards of the day when they were built.
It's interesting for me to study the paint on 6S2148. When I do, it curious to me, but totally understandable, for example—that the blue stripes that came stock on my car—are so harsh in terms of their appliacation: the edges for example—there was no nice striping tapes by 3M back then, which pulled off the base paint— in nice clean lines; clean crisp lines I see on all the restored cars—the original tape lines are typical of the 3M tape products I used. Paper tape lines that leave lines that are by no means crisp, clean, lines.
Thesis: is restoring a car to the standards of the day they were built serving the car? Or is it a disservice to the car and better to restore these cars to the present day standards?
The path you choose for the car you own is your own to decide. How you decide and what you decide is strictly up to your specific wants and needs. Do you want a concourse correct car that get trailered from show to show, rarely gets started, and basically gets turned into a peace of artwork? Or, do you want a car you can get in, turn the key, put the car in a gear of your personal choosing and take it out for a 100+ mile ride at a moments notice? There is no right or wrong answer, as once again, it's your car, your money, and your personal wants and needs that come in to play. Your post above shows that even now, you are unsure of what you want out of the car, so you post and ask the question, which is a great first start, yet, the ultimate answer is one that we cannot give you, for it is not up to us to do so.
With that said, the ball is in your court, as it was for mine. Personally, I chose to get the car where it was pleasing to the eyes, but could be driven cross country at a moments notice, without worry of breakdown..........Again, my car, my choices.......Give it some time, you'll find the path you choose, it will just take some soul searching.......
Either way, here is wishing you a joyous trip down the path you choose.
Bill
Quote from: Bigfoot on March 24, 2018, 12:22:13 PM
I'd keep the paint where it is as it is.
But it's ur car.
I'll be keeping her the same. I just like her like that. I was just wonder how other guys felt and why. Some really interesting comments so far I think.
Totally agree with your last statement that you will not be changing any paint anytime soon. If you have a decent looking, mechanically sound car drive it and have fun. Spend the money keeping it that way.
My choice was simple 30 years ago, buying a "basketcase" painted the incorrect color and needing a lot of work I chose to restore it to a Day 2 configuration. Perhaps today I would do some things a little differently, but still would need to restore the car.
As it has been said, your car, your choice rings true. At the end of the day are you happy with what you own. Then the answer is simple.
Greek
Greek- That is a similar story to my Beauty and the Beast story of 1189. My car was a street raced, drag raced,road raced,run hard put away wet car. So it had a hard, short life of only approx. 5 years before it was parked for nearly 47 years! So bringing the car back to life has been very fun and stressful at the same time wondering and worrying what way is best. After discussing its rehabilitation with 100s of people I concluded that day 2 is what I like best its what the previous owner liked best therefore that's the life that this car will have. All components needed attention after nearly 50 years of use and abuse. Back in 1971 it was one of the most beautiful and fastest street racers back on the east coast with a gorgeous Nightmist Blue paintjob and an equally feared full boogie 427 tunnel port. So this is what created the finished image in my minds eye of how it would return to the streets and tracks again. All fresh and shiny new, with parchment interior. Ready to take on a fresh start but less the drugs and alchohol of the 1960s-70s. No BLUE CHEER for this guy :)
Quote from: Bill on March 24, 2018, 05:17:05 PM
The path you choose for the car you own is your own to decide. How you decide and what you decide is strictly up to your specific wants and needs...... so you post and ask the question, which is a great first start, yet, the ultimate answer is one that we cannot give you, for it is not up to us to do so.
With that said, the ball is in your court, as it was for mine. ......Give it some time, you'll find the path you choose, it will just take some soul searching.......
Either way, here is wishing you a joyous trip down the path you choose.
Bill
well said!
427- I can totally understand you view point. Most of the Day 2 modifications on my car can be easily reversed. Only the Monte Carlo Bar holes and making the lower scoops non-functional would require some welding. We car enthusiasts tend to make our cars what we want to own and drive. That, I think, is what makes our hobby so interesting and dynamic. We can attend a SAAC Convention and see cars that have been restored to better than new, some with slight modifications, and some modified to run the hell out of them. It is all good no matter what the preference. I, for one, like to see the all of the different examples, because that is what makes our hobby great. Everyone expressing their view of what their car should be, enjoying and appreciating what others have chosen to do makes the conventions appealing to all. Just do not put in a Bow Tie engine.
Greek
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on March 24, 2018, 03:11:03 PM
Restoring a car to day one does honor to the car. Restoring to the standards of today honors the market and owners pocketbook at sale time.
Truer words were never spoken.
Quote from: jguyer on March 24, 2018, 04:49:51 PM
Quote from: KR Convertible on March 24, 2018, 11:18:09 AM
Tin,
Are you taking your car to SAAC 43?
If you do, I think you will be surprised by the attention that original paint gets. I took my restored GT500 convertible to SAAC 41 and it barely got a second glance. The car across the aisle from it got all the attention. It was pretty much the same car in red, but unrestored, owned by "Poor Ron" here on the forum. There was a crowd around that car all day, including me.
Paul
You may be right, I have several pictures of poor ron's car. I looked through the rest and couldn't find another red '68 convertible. Since I have a KR convertible, I usually pay attention to them.
Reread post, "same car in red".
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/187-240318164357.jpeg)
Is this it?
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/187-240318174209.jpeg)
My username is "KR Convertible", which I chose before I had a car. My car is an Acapulco blue GT500 convertible #181. It was parked diagonally across from Ron's car.
It's all good...My car looks a bit beat and is the wrong color..I drive it..If it gets scratched so what...Eventually I will paint it the right color,probably base,clear, no orange peel...At that point if I scratch it I will probably cry like a baby girl....By then however I will be an old(er) fart and probably won't drive it as much so it will be less likely to get damaged..No interest in concourse quality paint as it is less visually appealing and I don't care about value as I will never sell it..mia due euro..
QuoteMy username is "KR Convertible", which I chose before I had a car. My car is an Acapulco blue GT500 convertible #181. It was parked diagonally across from Ron's car.
Back to original premise, only blue '68 convertible is seen in background of Poor Ron's original tire.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/187-250318074245.jpeg)
That's it. It's a former triple crown gold level car and barely got a second look, while Ron's unrestored car had
a crowd around it most of the day. Just goes to show that a car does not have to be perfectly restored to garner
lots of attention. An unrestored car can be a treasure-trove of details to be studied and appreciated.
They're only original once.
for me, all original is the way to go, but there is always issues, like the worst is the lead seams on the 1/4. they all have it and it gets worse with time. on a car that has "less value" I like the over restored or day 2 look. having this done now on my old cougar. driver, horrible color (gold) and crappy lead seams. phred
I find the more originality that a car has, the interesting it is, and as more & more cars are restored, the original cars are becoming more rare and more valuable, imo. If the painty is thin on the fender edges, and the gel coat is showing on the hood, so what. Protect it with a good coat of wax and leave it alone. Same goes for the interior.
Day one cars have lost something that can't be replaced. Once any part of the originality is gone, you can't get it back, and you're left with a car that looks exactly like every other restored car. I can't really call any Shelby boring, but to go from an original car to a restored one, is headed in that direction. There's got to be some remorse when the dust settles.
Z
Quote from: zray on March 26, 2018, 07:52:25 AM
I find the more originality that a car has, the interesting it is, and as more & more cars are restored, the original cars are becoming more rare and more valuable, imo. If the painty is thin on the fender edges, and the gel coat is showing on the hood, so what. Protect it with a good coat of wax and leave it alone. Same goes for the interior.
Day one cars have lost something that can't be replaced. Once any part of the originality is gone, you can't get it back, and you're left with a car that looks exactly like every other restored car. I can't really call any Shelby boring, but to go from an original car to a restored one, is headed in that direction. There's got to be some remorse when the dust settles.
Z
Sure but in retrospect now there is remorse that the car ever got driven away when the dealer delivered it because all it did was start a clock running on the cars ultimate demise.
The reality is that that clock already was ticking as it was driven out of the door at A.O.Smith and parked in the storage lot before it was even sold to a dealer.
So some of these points are just unavoidable. We're all getting older. Mention just one person who isn't?
I don't know about others but for me, in my mind now, back then I would have done things differently.
Would I have bought a 427 Cobra? I would like to think that I would have. Would I have kept it until now? I would like to think I was that clairvoyant but probably would have sold it when they went to $25,000, and that seemed like all the money in the world.
Second guessing now is of little point.
How many of the Daytonna Coupes would you have bought for $2,500 each?
Day 2 cars aren't all bad and there were different routes to get to them. Consider this one. A factory 427 day 2 car. I'll take it, then or now? ;)
Just one view. If the car retained more of its originality (an unrestored car) the exterior of the car IMHO would be more important. Since allot of the car was disassembled and redone it's sort of in limbo between an unrestored/survivor car and a restored or refurbished car.
Not sure what was done to the undercarriage to clean it up or other processes after I saw your car a number of years back and didn't bend a knee and look under it when I saw it next time. Did appreciate at the time the original paint and the strip details. I think I might have made different choices that the PO did and left the drivetrain and suspension alone and as found/purchased. If my understanding of the car and its current condition is correct then it falls between the classes ( if you focus is taking an award) at most of the national shows but people will still look and enjoy viewing the car.
I have a car in similar condition (interior and undercarriage basically untouched) so it's IMHO just a driver at this point and I'll let the next owner figure out how they want to deal with it
For any of us I think it comes down to an honest reflection of how we want to use and enjoy the car, evaluating our resources, developing and following a plan with a focus on the end goal. Do it for yourself rather than for someone else unless your just flipping the car.
I look at my house ,my car ,my wife ,all in the same light. I love them all but I don't want to go out on the town with my wife that has a dirty blouse, bra, toes sticking out the end of her shoes just because she has owned that stuff for years. Same with the house,I don't want paint peeling ,weeds growing in the yard, and a swimming pool full of algae because it gives it the original look to the house. The same holds true for my cars. A kick ass engine .paint and interior work etc puts the smile on my face as well as those that see it at the races,car shows or out the the streets. My thoughts are we purchase cars at the dealerships to get a beautiful car so why not make your pride and joy at least as good as it was 50 years ago. :)
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 26, 2018, 08:05:45 AM
Quote from: zray on March 26, 2018, 07:52:25 AM
I find the more originality that a car has, the interesting it is, and as more & more cars are restored, the original cars are becoming more rare and more valuable, imo. If the painty is thin on the fender edges, and the gel coat is showing on the hood, so what. Protect it with a good coat of wax and leave it alone. Same goes for the interior.
Day one cars have lost something that can't be replaced. Once any part of the originality is gone, you can't get it back, and you're left with a car that looks exactly like every other restored car. I can't really call any Shelby boring, but to go from an original car to a restored one, is headed in that direction. There's got to be some remorse when the dust settles.
Z
Sure but in retrospect now there is remorse that the car ever got driven away when the dealer delivered it because all it did was start a clock running on the cars ultimate demise.
The reality is that that clock already was ticking as it was driven out of the door at A.O.Smith and parked in the storage lot before it was even sold to a dealer.
So some of these points are just unavoidable. We're all getting older. Mention just one person who isn't?
I don't know about others but for me, in my mind now, back then I would have done things differently.
Would I have bought a 427 Cobra? I would like to think that I would have. Would I have kept it until now? I would like to think I was that clairvoyant but probably would have sold it when they went to $25,000, and that seemed like all the money in the world.
Second guessing now is of little point.
How many of the Daytonna Coupes would you have bought for $2,500 each?
Day 2 cars aren't all bad and there were different routes to get to them. Consider this one. A factory 427 day 2 car. I'll take it, then or now? ;)
This picture with the wheel and tire combo is pure sex! Wow!! 8)
Excellent thread. My $0.02. Survivor cars are an important bench mark to the hobby. Typically showing how crude these cars came off the assembly line consistent with the level of acceptance at the time. These cars are increasingly rare and should be preserved best practical.
Alternatively, if previously painted, rust or collision repaired all originality bets are off. If you have never closely inspected a truly magnificent show car, you owe it to yourself. A trip to SEMA or other show to seek out a Ridler Award winner, Foose's work or a handful of others. Beyond breath taking. Not just the paint, but panel alignment, uniform gaps, and perfection in form no stamping die of glass mold can yield.
Such is the route I went and 10 years later have no regrets. I don't give a rat's ass about attracting a crowd or foolish show trophies. It's what makes me happy. The best being when I push it out of the secret lair on a late, warm summer night. Then let the side oiler stretch its legs on deserted interstate for several miles.
^^^^This gentleman knows how to do it right.
Nice man-sized rubber. Not going to deliver any Mary-Kay cosmetics in those vehicles.
Also; Foose's Imposter is absolutely, without question, the finest custom made American Muscle ever imagined and brought to fruition. He brings sense to the world after I have viewed a Ring Brothers abomination.