I posted this on the FE forum with no response so I thought I would try over here, and even though we're not talking Shelby's I realize there are knowledgeable people over here on the FE's so..........
It seems most comment that the Carter #4442-S is the proper unit for the '67 427 Fairlanes, perhaps being Ford #COAZ-9350-D, and sometimes the Carter #4399 (?) (difference?) is injected into the conversation, these perhaps as I have read applicable to a date of before 02/01/67? Yes - No?
Then curiously descending numerically for a later listed application, the Carter #4441-S, as perhaps being Ford #C7AZ-9350-A, is listed as being for '68-'70 Ford 427-428, as being applicable post the 02/01/67 date? Yes - No?
So where does the Carter #4254-S (descending numerically even further?) fit in? ???
Over the decades we have accumulated a few Carter "X" fuel pumps #4254-S that I removed from various 427 engines and set to the side ages ago because I don't throw to much away, and as it seems much of what I did toss turns out to be what everyone wants now, but that's another issue! ::)
The question is: Is the above information correct, and then what application is correct for this Carter #4254-S? In looking it up, I find the application description of 1967 Ford 427, and that would be for what vehicle? Why not the '67 427 Fairlane? :-\
Thank you,
Scott.
The Carter #4441-S, Ford #C7AZ-9350-A was used on the 427 side oiler equipped 1968 Cougar GT-E beginning in August 1967 when the first batch of 427 GT-E's were produced. When the 428CJ came out mid 1968 model year many of the parts from the 427 GT-E were also used on the 428CJ.
Yes the 4442S is correct for the R code and W code 1967 Fairlanes and Comets.
I have not seen a 4254S - how many check valves does it have? It's not anything Ford ever used in production IMHO.
To add to the confusion my 67 R-code Fairlane has an A/C fuel pump number 4986. The original owner says that is what it came with, I find no mention of A/c pump anywhere in the MPC in the pump or rebuild kit area. Hollander manual does list both an A/C pump, number 4918 and Carter, number M9031 for the 67 427 Fairlane. As I am sure you found the MPC lists the Carter 4442 as correct for that application, but no listing for 4254. Of course the catalog vs production are only distant cousins at times.
I have the AC pump also.
The FE's ARE very confusing and frankly functionally, I don't know what the differences are to the pumps themselves.
I just keep saying to myself what Mr.Gaines said, i.e., "we only look at part numbers and dates in 'Thoroughbred' Concours', Div. 1. In Div.II we just look for the button top pump".
Do the best that you can and if you are preparing to sell the car, just be careful of the way that you phrase it.
EVEN IF you had a "factory virgin" here to sell, few would believe it and there is enough contradicting evidence to cast doubt in even most of the experts eyes.
Just think of representing the car as very driveable and saved from the dead. Right there that will gain a lot of attention from some very serious knowledgeable buyers.
Some parts are just not replaceable and reasonable substitutes in character to the original car are acceptable to most.
Through the magic of Google I found that the Carter 4254-S was original equipment on Chris Craft boats using the 427 Ford engine from 1966 - 1970. One place has rebuild kits that include three check valves. I don't know if the pump actually uses three check valves or not.
This first picture shows the AC fuel pump on 427s getting ready to be installed in Cobras, not exactly sure what year. The second and third picture is an AC fuel pump model 0294, dated February of 1965 inside, just like the pumps on those engines in picture one. I've seen pictures of '66 427 Fairlanes with both the AC pump and Carter pumps installed, but have no knowledge of originality or pump model number. Obviously there is only 57 of those built, but could shed light on a possible changeover to Ford using Carter more on HP big block engines than in previous years. Also, possibly many of the 66 Fairlanes were converted to electric pumps and various engines in and out of the cars while being raced makes it difficult to verify. It seems that AC style (possibly Airtex as well) pumps are used more prevalently on big block vehicles prior to 1966. Throw in several mid year, 1967 model, production changes on the Fairlane, so early 427 cars used an AC pump, later cars used a Carter???
Quote from: 430dragpack on November 30, 2020, 12:10:46 PM
This first picture shows the AC fuel pump on 427s getting ready to be installed in Cobras, not exactly sure what year. The second and third picture is an AC fuel pump model 0294, dated February of 1965 inside, just like the pumps on those engines in picture one. I've seen pictures of '66 427 Fairlanes with both the AC pump and Carter pumps installed, but have no knowledge of originality or pump model number. Obviously there is only 57 of those built, but could shed light on a possible changeover to Ford using Carter more on HP big block engines than in previous years. Also, possibly many of the 66 Fairlanes were converted to electric pumps and various engines in and out of the cars while being raced makes it difficult to verify. It seems that AC style (possibly Airtex as well) pumps are used more prevalently on big block vehicles prior to 1966. It seems there there were several mid year production changes on the Fairlane, so early 427 cars used an AC pump, later cars used a Carter???
65 would be the year of the picture given the 427 Cobras started production in 65 and the shade of the block appears black in a BW picture . Blue would show up lighter shade in a BW picture. Block color was supposed to change in approximately August of 1965 according to records . Black transmission also indicates Cobra usage.
Quote from: Royce Peterson on November 30, 2020, 10:59:47 AM
Through the magic of Google I found that the Carter 4254-S was original equipment on Chris Craft boats using the 427 Ford engine from 1966 - 1970. One place has rebuild kits that include three check valves.
Of curiosity, do you remember the web-site where you saw this info (both the reference and the kits available), I did several searches and can't make it appear for me?
Thank you,
Scott.
It's interesting, as revealed in the posted listing by 430dragpack, that the Carter #4442 pump it appears was assigned both the COAZ-D and the C7AZ-B (at a later date) numbers,...........I wonder why? Generally one would think Ford Motor Co. would have changed the part number due to a physical component change requirement or vendor change; but Carter it appears didn't seem per the numbers to acknowledge any change? ???
Also, in photos from 430dragpack of the "AC" fuel pumps, apparently installed on the 427's in '65, are these the correct external physical presentation, and I realize it would appear they were the same 0294 number, one should expect for the chronologically later installations of the Fairlanes? For some reason I seem to recall seeing the "AC" cast on the upper body, but perhaps I'm just confused with something else? :-\
And, THANK YOU! for those whom responded to my inquiry! :D
Thank you,
Scott.
Quote from: pbf777 on December 01, 2020, 01:44:44 PM
It's interesting, as revealed in the posted listing by 430dragpack, that the Carter #4442 pump it appears was assigned both the COAZ-D and the C7AZ-B (at a later date) numbers,...........I wonder why? Generally one would think Ford Motor Co. would have changed the part number due to a physical component change requirement or vendor change; but Carter it appears didn't seem per the numbers to acknowledge any change? ???
Also, in photos from 430dragpack of the "AC" fuel pumps, apparently installed on the 427's in '65, are these the correct external physical presentation, and I realize it would appear they were the same 0294 number, one should expect for the chronologically later installations of the Fairlanes? For some reason I seem to recall seeing the "AC" cast on the upper body, but perhaps I'm just confused with something else? :-\
And, THANK YOU! for those whom responded to my inquiry! :D
Thank you,
Scott.
I can not make it out in the picture but I would expect to see the AC trademark on the upper pump body.
I'm in the process of rebuilding my pump, but here it is compared to another vintage AC pump that is a remanufactured pump from years back, showing some physical differences. The parts that are circled correspond to the pumps on the Cobra engines, especially if you look at the pump that is fully circled. You can see the side step on the top section, the extra side rib on the middle section and the little gusset on the top by the mounting flange. Yes, it does have AC on the very top.
Sent you a link by PM.
Quote from: pbf777 on November 30, 2020, 01:35:51 PM
Quote from: Royce Peterson on November 30, 2020, 10:59:47 AM
Through the magic of Google I found that the Carter 4254-S was original equipment on Chris Craft boats using the 427 Ford engine from 1966 - 1970. One place has rebuild kits that include three check valves.
Of curiosity, do you remember the web-site where you saw this info (both the reference and the kits available), I did several searches and can't make it appear for me?
Thank you,
Scott.
Quote from: 430dragpack on December 01, 2020, 02:16:05 PM
................., but here it is compared to another vintage AC pump that is a remanufactured pump from years back, showing some physical differences.
This "other" pump I'm assuming is not an AC #0294 vs. an example of changed production execution under the same part number at some other time in history? ???
And yes, I do see also many other differences in the castings of the two examples you provided; and as you indicated that your "correct" example is dated '65 as probably are the units pictured mounted on the engines and do appear similar, my next curiosity is whether the pumps made later, say in '67 also appear as such, even with a different Ford part number? ???
Thank you,
Scott.
Quote from: pbf777 on December 01, 2020, 08:22:17 PM
Quote from: 430dragpack on December 01, 2020, 02:16:05 PM
................., but here it is compared to another vintage AC pump that is a remanufactured pump from years back, showing some physical differences.
This "other" pump I'm assuming is not an AC #0294 vs. an example of changed production execution under the same part number at some other time in history? ???
And yes, I do see also many other differences in the castings of the two examples you provided; and as you indicated that your "correct" example is dated '65 as probably are the units pictured mounted on the engines and do appear similar, my next curiosity is whether the pumps made later, say in '67 also appear as such, even with a different Ford part number? ???
Thank you,
Scott.
Mine too!! Here is the 65 date with two slashes, kind of similar to how Ford does their "date wheel" like on aluminum components. Yes, the other pump in the pictures is not a 0294, but is a FE replacement/reman pump, merely to point out the physical differences.
Here is a picture of one of the 66 427 Fairlanes and it has an AC style pump on it. I don't have any idea how original the car is, but thought it was interesting.
Here is the common Airtex 362 Ford FE pump, 2 variations, one earlier than the other. Very similar to the AC pumps.
Quote from: 430dragpack on December 02, 2020, 08:20:16 AM
Here is a picture of one of the 66 427 Fairlanes and it has an AC style pump on it. I don't have any idea how original the car is, but thought it was interesting.
I don'r know Fairlane identification ques like I do Mustang however it is interesting that the engine in the picture uses a rare to find introduced in 67 production C7AE - Thermostat housing(can tell by the shape). That housing uses the smaller thermostat which was not typically used until 1967 production on engines. If a 66 engine maybe that part got changed out by a PO. A common C5AE marked thermostat (different shape)would be more typical on a 66 engine IMO. I only bring it up because it could call into question the credibility of other components on a 66 engine.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 02, 2020, 11:24:51 AM
Quote from: 430dragpack on December 02, 2020, 08:20:16 AM
Here is a picture of one of the 66 427 Fairlanes and it has an AC style pump on it. I don't have any idea how original the car is, but thought it was interesting.
I don'r know Fairlane identification ques like I do Mustang however it is interesting that the engine in the picture uses a rare to find introduced in 67 production C7AE - Thermostat housing(can tell by the shape). That housing uses the smaller thermostat which was not typically used until 1967 production on engines. If a 66 engine maybe that part got changed out by a PO. A common C5AE marked thermostat (different shape)would be more typical on a 66 engine IMO. I only bring it up because it could call into question the credibility of other components on a 66 engine.
Yep, that's why I thought it was interesting and said no knowledge of originality. It could even be(most likely) the Airtex 362 pump instead of an AC 0294.
Quote from: Royce Peterson on November 30, 2020, 10:59:47 AM
Through the magic of Google I found that the Carter 4254-S was original equipment on Chris Craft boats using the 427 Ford engine from 1966 - 1970.
I contacted the people at this web-site to inquire as to the foundation of the application description (and I purchased product also, as I needed such and I wasn't just another deadbeat looking for the free information and then proceed elsewhere to do business ::) ) and was informed that their application conclusion in this case was based on the familiar inquiry they have received over time rather than perhaps any true documentation from Carter stating such. So I'm confident that this is probably an accurate statement for C.C., but then how many calls would one recall for say the few '67 "R" code Fairlane's produced, of a few which may have received this pump, from the few remaining examples from owners needing repair, of a pump considered wrong for the restoration of a car perhaps worthy of the expense of seeking the "correct" unit? :-\
Also, again the Chris-Craft 427's appeared in 1966 (and actually I believe still available beyond 1970, maybe '72 or so?) and the Carter reference I have seen describes the 4254-S as being for: "1967 427", and not onward as presented elsewhere with other unit application descriptions. :)
I'm still curious as to if any documentation on the 4254-S from Carter was available beyond that which we currently have, which is bleak. And B.T.W., 430dragpack, who authored or where did the list you presented come from?
And what was the time period for the change from "CARbureTER" to "CARTER" as cast on the upper housings, as it seems there was a period of over lapping in their uses? ???
Scott.
Quote from: pbf777 on December 02, 2020, 02:27:57 PM
Quote from: Royce Peterson on November 30, 2020, 10:59:47 AM
Through the magic of Google I found that the Carter 4254-S was original equipment on Chris Craft boats using the 427 Ford engine from 1966 - 1970.
I'm still curious as to if any documentation on the 4254-S from Carter was available beyond that which we currently have, which is bleak. And B.T.W., 430dragpack, who authored or where did the list you presented come from?
And what was the time period for the change from "CARbureTER" to "CARTER" as cast on the upper housings, as it seems there was a period of over lapping in their uses? ???
Scott.
Author Warner Robert. Fern Park, Fl.
1968-69. I've had plenty of the 1970 model year 4910S BOSS 302 fuel pumps that were of the CARbureTER logo and CARTER, that were originals used intermixed in the same year.
Quote from: 430dragpack on December 02, 2020, 03:06:35 PM
Author Warner Robert. Fern Park, Fl.
If that's the little, light blue, pocket reference for Ford part numbers and applications authored by Robert Warner Lane, he was an employee of ours before and up to the time of this reference guide undertaking. :-\
Scott.
I think it would be interesting to know the pressure of all the un-verifiable application pumps, that may give some insight as well. Here is a higher pressure Carter sold by Ford for high-performance engines.
Thank you again 430dragpack! :)
An interesting pump listing not shown before; I wonder if it turns out to be the Carter #4539 unit shown on the other listing as an "or" possible application, although the C7 prefix would make it a retrofit for the earlier application listing or.............is it possible the 4254-S introduced for the as stated by Carter, the "1967 427" as solely a dealer available retrofit H.P. pump in the Ford system to be instituted as required as a retrofit in 1967 hence, the C7 Ford numbering, but perhaps no real specifically defined fitment by either Carter or Ford except as a "Class" rating as "D.S.O." aka. Ford Parts Dept. "race" parts? ???
Scott.
B.T.W. Sunday I spotted a Carter "button-top" fuel pump laying in a pile of "stuff" on a swap-meet vendors table, in N.O.S. condition but out of the box, some ageing (patina ::) ), but still mostly bright & shinny, never bolted up, couldn't read the numbers stamped as they were only lightly stamped and I need glasses, so I though what the heck, hey, how much for this? He says do you know what it fits? I said well, I can't see the numbers but it is for a small block Ford. He says yeah, and it's brand new! I said: well it's unused for it's intended purpose, but it's not exactly new, but how much do you want for it anyway? He said: you can have it for $15 bucks; I followed with I'll go $10 bucks; he said $12 bucks and you can have it! Back at the truck with my glasses I could read the stamped numbers of 4201S with a date code of 22A9, so I assume a service replacement, but still for $12 bucks! 8)
Found this '66 427 Fairlane auction result from May 2018 Mecum. Says it was restored by Bob Perkins. It has an AC fuel pump on it, says AC on top like the 0294 pump.
Found this today in a March 1967, Ford shop manual.
(https://i.imgur.com/221DRLc.jpg)
Did anyone locate a source for rebuild kit for the AC fuel pump? Thanks.