Your thoughts? Did I defend correctly?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/610823252385260/permalink/1267996876667891/?comment_id=1268249263309319&reply_comment_id=1268261066641472¬if_id=1522340118707767¬if_t=group_comment_mention&ref=notif
Quote from: Cobrask8 on March 29, 2018, 12:31:00 PM
Your thoughts? Did I defend correctly?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/610823252385260/permalink/1267996876667891/?comment_id=1268249263309319&reply_comment_id=1268261066641472¬if_id=1522340118707767¬if_t=group_comment_mention&ref=notif
I prefer them the not use GT350 at all. Call it a Dan special 1965 creation. :D as for arguing, nobody wins
Quote from: Bill on March 29, 2018, 12:42:14 PM
I prefer them the not use GT350 at all. Call it a Dan special 1965 creation. :D as for arguing, nobody wins
Not the "Dan Special" I have enough of a history with my own "Special"..... 8)
Yeah well there's a seat for every a**...of they invest much and think it's "original" they are going to get a nasty surprise at sales time..Also if they try and pass it off as "original"to someone with an inkling of knowledge they will get laughed at....mio due euro...Trent
Quote from: Cobrask8 on March 29, 2018, 12:31:00 PM
Your thoughts? Did I defend correctly?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/610823252385260/permalink/1267996876667891/?comment_id=1268249263309319&reply_comment_id=1268261066641472¬if_id=1522340118707767¬if_t=group_comment_mention&ref=notif
+ 101
The cars are total bull sh!t and we all know it.
Call it like it is.
Just another attempt by someone to make money or re-live the past...
The past is the past and what they are doing is just..."echos of a memory."
They gotta let that sh!t go....
Waste of nice K codes. Fake in my opinion and wrecking good cars. It was never a Shelby for the last 55 years, ain't one now. Make them out of new bodies and save the K codes.
Wurd
Wow. The Eleanor craze a few years nearly destroyed the '67/'68 Mustang fastback market, and now this "project" will be responsible for doing the same for first generation K code fastbacks.
""" "This is the last chance to be the original owner of an original Shelby GT350 competition model sports car built by the original crew inside a Shelby facility. You simply can't get more original than that." """
Original, Adjective: present or existing from the beginning. Patently untrue.
Original, Noun: Something serving as a model or basis for imitations or copies. True of only the ORIGINAL 36, period.
To complete their phrase - You simply can't get more original than that...until we make yet another batch of "originals"
Can't wait to see the "original" tags they put on this lil' B.
M.
Ah, maybe this is another reason for the auction of CS' 24 personal cars that were stored in the unused warehouse. Gotta make some room for the new (ahem) Shelby factory production. But no MSO, just licensing blessing and revenue. 8)
guess you have not heard of the return of the 1968 continuation KR.....
http://www.fordmuscle.com/news/return-of-the-king-50th-anniversary-gt500kr/
I first thought they were buying K codes and 'converting' them to replica 'R' model GT350's. It appears they will now convert a customers K code or provide one. I would guess they learned it wasn't easy to find decent K codes. ;)
They will also finish it with the live axle or the IRS. It will have a starting price of $250,000. Really? Really?
Quote from: A-Snake on March 29, 2018, 04:51:59 PM
I first thought they were buying K codes and 'converting' them to replica 'R' model GT350's. It appears they will now convert a customers K code or provide one. I would guess they learned it wasn't easy to find decent K codes. ;)
They will also finish it with the live axle or the IRS. It will have a starting price of $250,000. Really? Really?
looks like $250,000 is the magic number for either of the continuation models 65 or 68
Cannot believe that anyone with an ounce of sense would be on board with this....STUPID IS WHAT STUPID DOES !... ::)
Yes, but these will be in the registry LOL
Quote from: Coralsnake on March 29, 2018, 06:05:02 PM
Yes, but these will be in the registry LOL
Whos....lmao
I expect we will see some of these licensed continuations on display and promoted at SAAC-43 for everyone's review and discussion. Probably some orders will be taken, probably for those who want a driver while the original sleeps in the garage.
Quote from: Coralsnake on March 29, 2018, 06:05:02 PM
Yes, but these will be in the registry LOL
Do you remember the crap I took on 1.0 when I stated they should not use the name GT350 with the original prototype of the IRS car ::)
Quote from: Coralsnake on March 29, 2018, 06:05:02 PM
Yes, but these will be in the registry LOL
Why would they b in our Registry?
Honestly, I can see where someone might want an R model clone on steroids built by part of the original crew.
HOWEVER, the marketing suggests the car is something it's not. And, I agree - taking a special car like an original K code is disconcerting.
And, the price? Think of what type of REAL Shelby you could buy for that money. You're well into an extremely nice, true Shelby for a quarter mil.
The only record would have to be by the manufacturer of the licensed vehicle. Shelby American only keeps records on vehicles that it has done. There is no registry that I know of for the stock 2007-2014 Ford Shelby GT500 Mustang other than the designation in the VIN for verification. It would be up to the SAAC directors, I speculate, as to whether they wanted to add these licensed vehicles to their data base. They would need a Continuation Registrar to keep up. 8)
Knock offs have been going on since antiquity. That doesn't mean it should be excused. The Ulfberht Viking sword was made of crucible steel, unheard of for that era and were regarded as Europe's most superior and mighty sword of the time. It would bend in battle where others were brittle and would break. And of course there were replicas found with the Ulfberht mark and were deterimined to be of inferior grade steel so it was hypothesized that these were knock offs dating back to that period.
http://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-ancient-technology/step-closer-mysterious-origin-viking-sword-ulfberht-002455
So the fact it is happening with Shelbys is no surprise. Human nature never changes.
^^
Wurd
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on March 29, 2018, 08:06:29 PM
Honestly, I can see where someone might want an R model clone on steroids built by part of the original crew.
HOWEVER, the marketing suggests the car is something it's not. And, I agree - taking a special car like an original K code is disconcerting.
And, the price? Think of what type of REAL Shelby you could buy for that money. You're well into an extremely nice, true Shelby for a quarter mil.
Agree, it a lot of cash that I would honestly spend elsewhere.
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on March 29, 2018, 08:06:29 PM
Honestly, I can see where someone might want an R model clone on steroids built by part of the original crew.
HOWEVER, the marketing suggests the car is something it's not. And, I agree - taking a special car like an original K code is disconcerting.
And, the price? Think of what type of REAL Shelby you could buy for that money. You're well into an extremely nice, true Shelby for a quarter mil.
Agreed ... I think for 100k I could have a R model clone that would run circles around that over priced over exaggerated Dinosaur built dinosaurs. Everyone likes something different ,That's what makes the world go around. Todays builders and technology are AWESOME!!!
You might even get some valuable dash signatures included for the 250K investment toy. 8)
Quote from: Don Johnston on March 29, 2018, 11:25:09 PM
You might even get some valuable dash signatures included for the 250K investment toy. 8)
LOL!!!!
Quote from: Don Johnston on March 29, 2018, 06:46:43 PM
I expect we will see some of these licensed continuations on display and promoted at SAAC-43
They will be there - act interested you can get a ride. The "new" R Model is how they wanted to build it back in the day. IRS, Pete Brock has done some tweeks to the front apron and rear window. Everyone with an ounce of brain knows it wasn't built in 65 and will never be worth the same money. As far as using K cars I don't really care? Yes it's more "original" but using 50 year old rode hard put away wet Mustangs makes less sense than a new unrusted/repaired replica body. When CS did the continuation convertibles back in the 80s Brunk started with real POS cars as to meet the rules to be newly manufactured it had to use 80% new parts. Poor workmanship and corner cutting didn't help those. It's a nice car but if it was me I'd build an unlicensed "original look" for a track car I'd go replica body and full cage to stiffen it up. A 450 plus cheater motor current tires on bigger wheels etc. Nostalgia is great but there are a lot of mediocre street cars today that will beat up on the best prepared cars of the 60s. Rick Titus got a lot of hate mail for stomping a well prepared 65 GT350 at Willow with CSs little Dodge Omni GLH-S street car on the pages of Hot Rod.
ON FB,
I Wrote maybe Unique Performance might step up, we know how that worked out...goes along with the 427 Cobra frames found in the attic..snake oil and mirrors!
Quote from: Shelby_0022 on March 29, 2018, 11:33:20 PM
Quote from: Don Johnston on March 29, 2018, 11:25:09 PM
You might even get some valuable dash signatures included for the 250K investment toy. 8)
LOL!!!!
And here I am sitting on a repop visor from my 66 GT I sold a few years back with Carroll, Parnelli Jones and George Follmer on it.....
Most don't care or even know who PJ or George are... :'( Ol shell is what matters to the unknowing crowd.
Is the cost $250k if you provide the K code or $250k inclusive of the car? If the latter, I would be interested in how they determine the credit when you provide the car. Regardless, it is a waste of an original K-code. They make it sound like Pete Brock et al. are wrenching on the cars themselves....
All of them have been very hands on during the build. I don't think Pete will be there very often - his parts are done and in production. The IRS has been finalized. It got some different brackets so they felt safe selling them for others to install. I'm not critical of these guys being hands on - they are all very capable but 60-80. Lots of heavy lifting better left to younger backs with a benefit of handing knowledge on to another generation. Here are the major exterior changes - Apron now includes bumper - rear window no longer has the kink in it. A shot of a test at Willow. Pete on L - Vince from SA did IRS development of new Shelbys. Rick Titus seat time in 5R001 and the two protptypes (they built a standard and an IRS for comparison) John Morton an icon who started as a student at Shelby's race school - drove BRE Datsuns for Brock and also some 427 seat time with Ken Miles. He was even one of the stunt drivers in Gumball Rally.
NOTE: Playing with the photos so they will load........
Quite a number of original street model GT350 Shelbys have been modified, converted. upgraded (select one) to R models, even some born as 1966 cars,but we seem to like them as long as they are not misrepresented as original R models, I guess.
I am not sure if this equates of using original K code Mustangs to make licensed continuations in a Shelby owned facility by former Shelby employees.
Just stirring the pot a little without negative comments about this. Personally, for the price I would rather have the correct original Shelby and use a 66 Mustang for the modified ones that contain modern upgraded parts. This process has been done for decades and the results, which are usually very appealing, are usually termed tributes or clones or some other confusing label. 8)
Quote from: Cobrask8 on March 29, 2018, 12:31:00 PM
Your thoughts? Did I defend correctly?
your thoughts look accurate.
When the guys were talking about the "continuation" GT40 Mk IVs, I never heard any reference to them being "original" (simply identical "continuation cars"). Why does this crew try to muddy the water calling them "original"?
One only needs to look at the crowd of owners with "continuation" CSX Cobras. There have been many examples of owners who firmly believe and report that they have an "original" Shelby Cobra. They will flat out deny that it is a replica, but are fully aware that they were built in the last 2 decades and not in the 60s. The confusion is real, and it's often intentional because it's profitable.
These Mustangs are going to be even muddier waters to navigate through. Unlike the Cobras which are constructed with a NEW chassis and NEW body, etc... These Mustangs were all once original K code cars. Talk about confusing. There will be many owners who will be bringing these to car shows and reporting up and down that they are original Shelby GT350s and they will be able to justify it in their minds and with their checkbooks. SAAC and MCA better figure out right now how they intend to handle these when entered into concours judging. I know one of the continuation convertibles from the 80s batch was judged a few years ago at Road America.
Great points being raised! Also, what vins will the cars be using, ie: will they keep the original K code vins from the donor cars, create a new series (OVC 001), or attempt to continue the existing series (SFM5s56?)? Anyone have any insights on that?
Quote from: sfm5 on April 04, 2018, 10:16:47 AM
Great points being raised! Also, what vins will the cars be using, ie: will they keep the original K code vins from the donor cars, create a new series (OVC 001), or attempt to continue the existing series (SFM5s56?)? Anyone have any insights on that?
Wouldn't anything other than the original VIN (or a state issued VIN) constitute VIN tampering?
If its not 60s its not an ORIGINAL! Really not much to argue over, if someone believes something let them believe and go on your merry way to where the originals hang out ;) New incarnations of anything are nice... Just not original-
I'm waiting patiently for the re-creation of the CS-ised Omnis.
The 80's are comin' BACK baby.
Quote from: ITHERTZ on April 04, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
SAAC and MCA better figure out right now how they intend to handle these when entered into concours judging.
I think it will be easy. When one of the owners brings it for judging, just flip open the 65-67 Registry to the appropriate page and ask: "if you don't mind good sir, please point to the entry that details which original R car you intend on entering for judging today"?
Bam!!!!! Modified Mustang and recreation judging is over there yonder . ;D
QSS
Personally, I can't see any of the owners taking one of these clones to MCA or SAAC and trying to justify it being "original". But, I could be wrong.
Has anyone ever brought a continuation car to MCA or SAAC and tried to pass it off as a original?
Maybe I'm assuming too much for $250K. ;)
The cost is probably what will make owners determine what to call their cars. When the price of a "continuation" Shelby type vehicle approaches the cost of a true 60's original, buyers may tend to justify the cost to themselves with the "original" statement.
Quote from: QuickSilverShelby on April 04, 2018, 03:54:40 PM
Quote from: ITHERTZ on April 04, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
SAAC and MCA better figure out right now how they intend to handle these when entered into concours judging.
I think it will be easy. When one of the owners brings it for judging, just flip open the 65-67 Registry to the appropriate page and ask: "if you don't mind good sir, please point to the entry that details which original R car you intend on entering for judging today"?
Bam!!!!! Modified Mustang and recreation judging is over there yonder . ;D
QSS
That is what I go by. Original production in the Registry. Otherwise, Modified.
Quote from: ITHERTZ on April 04, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
One only needs to look at the crowd of owners with "continuation" CSX Cobras. There have been many examples of owners who firmly believe and report that they have an "original" Shelby Cobra. They will flat out deny that it is a replica, but are fully aware that they were built in the last 2 decades and not in the 60s.
Problem here it is an original. It was built by SA. It does come with and MSO from SA. The only difference is it was made yesterday and has no history. They are worth less because there are more of them. The 1,300 2000 and 3000 series will always garner a higher price. Don't forget CS put a $500,000 price tag on the "lost frame" cars.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 04, 2018, 11:27:31 PM
Quote from: ITHERTZ on April 04, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
One only needs to look at the crowd of owners with "continuation" CSX Cobras. There have been many examples of owners who firmly believe and report that they have an "original" Shelby Cobra. They will flat out deny that it is a replica, but are fully aware that they were built in the last 2 decades and not in the 60s.
Problem here it is an original. It was built by SA. It does come with and MSO from SA. The only difference is it was made yesterday and has no history.
Please don't take offense, but you just proved my point.
Please lets not manipulate the English language, there are others out there that can put a spin on what is original. Would you purchase a FAUX,FAKE,RECREATION,WANNABE,CONTINUATION, or a number of other words to put a SPINOFF of an ORIGINAL. Not me I would prefer the ORIGINAL PICASSO art work or an ORIGINAL Rolex watch or a Gucci bag well you get my point. Having something with a muddy past, made in a foreign land, frame rails,bodies and a host of items that put a negative vibe on the man and his companies complicate matters. To right the wrongs,most prefer his products when they were more pure and called ORIGINALS as we know them to be. Just my 2 cents worth-
Stripes & scoops still sell. Who would have thunk it?
I remember looking at a 65 Shelby at a car show in Laguna Seca and the vin was SFM5S563. Can't
remember who built it as a Continuation car.
Well the horse has left the gate - the first car has been completed and shipped to Europe. Rick Titus tested it at Willow Springs on 4-5 and it was shipped 4-6. The buyer wanted it built to full 1965 FIA specs. No new body mods and solid axle.
FIA has issued the certification and the car is ready for it's new German owner to race.
More Snake Oil.
They are Original-Like. Or Replicas. Or Continuation, NOT originals.
The Nut TomH
Saw this in the Wall Street journal the other day. Looks like one had left the gate before this.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-teenage-obsession-became-a-shelby-mustang-collection-1523367001
Quote from: terlingua11 on April 13, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Saw this in the Wall Street journal the other day. Looks like one had left the gate before this.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-teenage-obsession-became-a-shelby-mustang-collection-1523367001
There were 2 prototypes - for lack of a better description. One was built with live axle and the other to refine the IRS installation. They were run side by side to gauge development. I suspect that he has one of those 2 cars.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 13, 2018, 01:44:31 PM
There were 2 prototypes - for lack of a better description. One was built with live axle and the other to refine the IRS installation. They were run side by side to gauge development. I suspect that he has one of those 2 cars.
Do you know if the two were objectively compared for ride & performance?
Quote from: 2112 on April 13, 2018, 06:35:33 PM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 13, 2018, 01:44:31 PM
There were 2 prototypes - for lack of a better description. One was built with live axle and the other to refine the IRS installation. They were run side by side to gauge development. I suspect that he has one of those 2 cars.
Do you know if the two were objectively compared for ride & performance?
I don't know about ride quality it was done to determine how much faster the IRS was than live axle - I don't have the number but it was quicker.
Quote from: terlingua11 on April 13, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
Saw this in the Wall Street journal the other day. Looks like one had left the gate before this.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-teenage-obsession-became-a-shelby-mustang-collection-1523367001
^^ A guy at work gave me a copy of the article (didn't read it thru yet). I saw that "Original Venice Crew" nomenclature and sorta wondered what is was... thought about this but not sure if the article would have enough details to be sure. More muddy water.
I guess when in doubt, "eschew obfuscation" ::)
Part of the issue is this: Lets all watch and make sure that whatever they're talking about registry is defined. SAAC, Team Shelby, whatever todays Shelby/American calls it self.