does anyone have pictures and details about 67 starters for small block 4 speed. I believe i have correct starter housing but not sure about the band and the cover.
When was your car built?
Two different versions were used during 67 productions. The early version was installed through the production year IMHO while in the later production period either the late or early were being installed so best to start out with what time period your asking about
mid production for 1376
Can't make out the date - it's at the end of the bottom line stamping on that version.
On first look of course the paint job is incorrect as pointed out in earlier threads. Fully assembled, painted semi-gloss black with a fading away of paint on the snout to no paint in most or all where the starter attaches to the bell housing and engine plate to ensure good grounding for operation.
Metal plug is a replacement, it is a similar shape to an original depends on how exact you want. Appears, can see an edge, to be missing the heavy paper gasket under the band
Band machine screw and nut would have been a straight slotted head and a square nut
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/14/6-040121164643.jpeg)
Going though additional pictures think the electrical stud has a non-factory like gasket and the retaining nut is incorrect but will check
To add to Jeff's observations - Even though your hand is probably covering the ribs ;) on the 1970 and later nose cone you can still tell it is a latter 70's housing because of the ribs or protrusions that are seen sticking out on the exterior band of the nose cone compared to the all smooth band on a earlier 1960's style nose cone . The band on a 60's part is smooth where as the later parts have the ribs or protrusions along the outside band. It is just easier to explain the rib feature as the most noticeable non 60's feature when searching out a viable vintage part. Even though it is out of sight once installed but you can still tell its a later style nose cone part none the less .
Maybe these images will help?
I think I got them from this forum in October of this year, they seem to display some of the points Jeff and Bob are discussing.
I can delete them if they are more confusing than helpful...
Quote from: JD on January 04, 2021, 09:56:15 PM
Maybe these images will help?
I think I got them from this forum in October of this year, they seem to display some of the points Jeff and Bob are discussing.
I can delete them if they are more confusing than helpful...
All good except the round back bendix cover which is a 65 early 66 feature.
Here is the correct Mustang small block nose cone, regardless of transmission, until the larger diameter, manual flywheel was used in Mustangs(1968),etc. , C3OF-11131-A, compared to a later style with the strengthening ribs as Bob described.
Here is the correct cover as Bob describes and part of the paper gasket under the band Jeff describes. This is '66 dated, but I can't make out the month. I have another original big block, ink stamped starter that is dated Jan. Of '66 and it has the earlier cover, so sometime around/after that is the possible changeover for the cover?? Now all he needs to know is when Ford approximately switched to the die stamped housing. I don't really want to dig through all my starters to look at dates right now, it is a great arm workout!! :o
Great pictures. Now we can get the stamp in the correct location.
I have a question;
I measured height of 5 different nose cones.
Why are some taller than their counterparts?
I always kind of though that, auto to a 4 speed car, that rationalization does not appear to be correct>
OR, small flywheel to larger flywheel., which brings in the added strength webs?
BTW, when did the big clutch larger flywheel begin, Bronco ?
John
Quote from: Harris Speedster on January 05, 2021, 12:13:53 PM
BTW, when did the big clutch larger flywheel begin, Bronco ?
John
1965 Galaxies, trucks and probably others. That's why the small block, large diameter manual trans. flywheel(BOSS 302,etc) originally used the C5TF-A nose cone until about Jan-Feb of 1970 with the C7AF-F starter, then went to the DOTZ-A (NO ribs) nose cone at about the same time they started using the D0AF-C starter, replacing the C7AF-F starter. Small block, Small diameter manuals and about all automatics used the C3OF-A nose cone until 1970 model year when the D0OF-A nose cone started then the D2(ribbed)nose cones. Confused yet? There is also a D0AF-D nose cone for a large flywheel manual that has the ribs, but haven't seen enough to determine their usage, the few I've seen are dated 1972.
Top cone in picture is the C5TF-A, large flywheel manual trans, bottom is the C3OF-A. The C3 is about 1/2" longer than the C5TF from mounting flange to the bushing end. The overall thickness of all the nose cones is pretty much the same at ~3.5".
Second picture is the C5TF-A and D0TZ-A that replaced it.
Quote from: J_Speegle on January 04, 2021, 04:51:00 PM
Can't make out the date - it's at the end of the bottom line stamping on that version.
jeff i looked at date and it appears to be may 67 date so just a little late for 1376...so my guess its looking like this would be better for an early 68 car and needs all the other changes mentioned in post replies. thanks for info
Thanks 430 these are the details and info i was looking for. A+++ and thanks for all the other replies Bob, JD, and others
If you need a C3 nose cone, I have some extras.
Chris
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 05, 2021, 03:35:11 PM
If you need a C3 nose cone, I have some extras.
Chris
p/m about nose
Quote from: imming1965 on January 05, 2021, 04:27:46 PM
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 05, 2021, 03:35:11 PM
If you need a C3 nose cone, I have some extras.
Chris
p/m about nose
Got it. Upon further inspection of your starter, it appears to be a C7AF-C which is not correct for a small block, but rather a big block(and has the wrong nose for that). You need a die stamped C7AF-B, dated appropriately, or possibly an earlier ink stamped, C4OF-A or C4ZF-A, others with known original ink stamped starters will hopefully jump in, just not sure of the time frame of the switch. And since 1376 was completed on April 12th of '67, there's a good chance it could be either ink or die stamped. The Registry also has noted "All original, un-restored", so if it had an original ink stamped starter on it and it has worn off, some may assume it isn't the original because there isn't any part number.
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 05, 2021, 07:21:13 PM
Quote from: imming1965 on January 05, 2021, 04:27:46 PM
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 05, 2021, 03:35:11 PM
If you need a C3 nose cone, I have some extras.
Chris
p/m about nose
Got it. Upon further inspection of your starter, it appears to be a C7AF-C which is not correct for a small block, but rather a big block(and has the wrong nose for that). You need a die stamped C7AF-B, dated appropriately, or possibly an earlier ink stamped, C4OF-A or C4ZF-A, others with known original ink stamped starters will hopefully jump in, just not sure of the time frame of the switch. And since 1376 was completed on April 12th of '67, there's a good chance it could be either ink or die stamped. The Registry also has noted "All original, un-restored", so if it had an original ink stamped starter on it and it has worn off, some may assume it isn't the original because there isn't any part number.
Most likely will have a ink stamped version.
I managed to look at a few of the n.o.s. starters I have and posted some pics, which I hope help with detailing and figuring out what may be correct for your car. The first starter has an ink stamp with the following info, "C7ZF-11001-A", dated "7G28C". The nose has a part # C6OF-11131-A casting. There is no die stamp on this starter. Notice the black paint is faded as it gets closer to the collar of the nose.
Quote from: George Schalk on January 06, 2021, 02:02:24 PM
I managed to look at a few of the n.o.s. starters I have and posted some pics, which I hope help with detailing and figuring out what may be correct for your car. The first starter has an ink stamp with the following info, "C7ZF-11001-A", dated "7G28C". The nose has a part # C6OF-11131-A casting. There is no die stamp on this starter. Notice the black paint is faded as it gets closer to the collar of the nose.
Good pictures, but that is for a 170 cid, 6 cylinder, so the nose cone isn't correct for a small block. It's orientation is almost opposite of a small block.
These are pics of a second n.o.s. starter that was manufactured in 1969. This one has a die stamp and no ink stamp. The die stamp is "C7AF-11001-B" with a date of "9C20B". This one also has a white gasket under the metal band, a yellow paint mark and the nose has a part #D0OF-11131-A. Again, the black paint is faded as it gets close to the seat collar of the nose. This starter would be to late for a '67 car, but very similar paint details.
The yellow paint mark does not mean all starters should have this marking. I have another n.o.s. starter identical to this one with a date of "9F14B" that does not have the yellow paint mark on it.
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 06, 2021, 02:17:38 PM
Quote from: George Schalk on January 06, 2021, 02:02:24 PM
I managed to look at a few of the n.o.s. starters I have and posted some pics, which I hope help with detailing and figuring out what may be correct for your car. The first starter has an ink stamp with the following info, "C7ZF-11001-A", dated "7G28C". The nose has a part # C6OF-11131-A casting. There is no die stamp on this starter. Notice the black paint is faded as it gets closer to the collar of the nose.
Good pictures, but that is for a 170 cid, 6 cylinder, so the nose cone isn't correct for a small block. It's orientation is almost opposite of a small block.
The pics are to show some of the basic detail from period starters. I hope it helps.
Quote from: George Schalk on January 06, 2021, 02:24:29 PM
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 06, 2021, 02:17:38 PM
Quote from: George Schalk on January 06, 2021, 02:02:24 PM
I managed to look at a few of the n.o.s. starters I have and posted some pics, which I hope help with detailing and figuring out what may be correct for your car. The first starter has an ink stamp with the following info, "C7ZF-11001-A", dated "7G28C". The nose has a part # C6OF-11131-A casting. There is no die stamp on this starter. Notice the black paint is faded as it gets closer to the collar of the nose.
Good pictures, but that is for a 170 cid, 6 cylinder, so the nose cone isn't correct for a small block. It's orientation is almost opposite of a small block.
The pics are to show some of the basic detail from period starters. I hope it helps.
Yes, I understand and thanks again for the pictures. I just wanted to make sure you were not trying to say the C6OF-A nose cone was correct for his application. Your second starter would work fine on his car but obviously not dated correctly and the nose cone is the replacement for the C3OF-A.
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 06, 2021, 02:29:08 PM
Quote from: George Schalk on January 06, 2021, 02:24:29 PM
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 06, 2021, 02:17:38 PM
Quote from: George Schalk on January 06, 2021, 02:02:24 PM
I managed to look at a few of the n.o.s. starters I have and posted some pics, which I hope help with detailing and figuring out what may be correct for your car. The first starter has an ink stamp with the following info, "C7ZF-11001-A", dated "7G28C". The nose has a part # C6OF-11131-A casting. There is no die stamp on this starter. Notice the black paint is faded as it gets closer to the collar of the nose.
Good pictures, but that is for a 170 cid, 6 cylinder, so the nose cone isn't correct for a small block. It's orientation is almost opposite of a small block.
The pics are to show some of the basic detail from period starters. I hope it helps.
Yes, I understand and thanks again for the pictures. I just wanted to make sure you were not trying to say the C6OF-A nose cone was correct for his application. Your second starter would work fine on his car but obviously not dated correctly and the nose cone is the replacement for the C3OF-A.
Although a later version and not technically correct the D0OF nose cone in this case on the second starter would pass most scrutiny once installed. What is seen on the outside once installed is what gives the look that is expected .
Just for clarification, the car being discussed, #1376, was completed at Ford on March 02, 1967. I believe that is still in the ink-stamped period, although at the end. This would have been before the die-stamped starters became the prominent assembly line part. I believe an ink-stamped starter was original on this car (it may still be with the parts that came off at tear-down).
The April 12, 1967 date mentioned above is the SA completion date.
Tom Gilliam
tom.gilliam@logan-aluminum.com
Quote from: tgilliam on January 06, 2021, 09:31:34 PM
Just for clarification, the car being discussed, #1376, was completed at Ford on March 02, 1967. I believe that is still in the ink-stamped period, although at the end. This would have been before the die-stamped starters became the prominent assembly line part. I believe an ink-stamped starter was original on this car (it may still be with the parts that came off at tear-down).
The April 12, 1967 date mentioned above is the SA completion date.
Tom Gilliam
tom.gilliam@logan-aluminum.com
Tom, I think that the transitioned to the metal stamp happened much later in 67 maybe August but that is just a guess based on the latest ink stamp dates I have been able to read on specific 67 289 and FE engines. I will find 10 metal unstamped cases that I can't read for every one that I can read and even less that I can read the date. There may have been a time during the transition when both types were used before old stock was used up.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 06, 2021, 11:51:17 PM
Quote from: tgilliam on January 06, 2021, 09:31:34 PM
Just for clarification, the car being discussed, #1376, was completed at Ford on March 02, 1967. I believe that is still in the ink-stamped period, although at the end. This would have been before the die-stamped starters became the prominent assembly line part. I believe an ink-stamped starter was original on this car (it may still be with the parts that came off at tear-down).
The April 12, 1967 date mentioned above is the SA completion date.
Tom Gilliam
tom.gilliam@logan-aluminum.com
Tom, I think that the transitioned to the metal stamp happened much later in 67 maybe August but that is just a guess based on the latest ink stamp dates I have been able to read on specific 67 289 and FE engines. I will find 10 metal unstamped cases that I can't read for every one that I can read and even less that I can read the date. There may have been a time during the transition when both types were used before old stock was used up.
So true, Bob.
So, no one has a picture of an original '67 GT350, C7AF-B ink stamp starter? What are guys doing when they restore/re-stamp them? Surely not using the cheesy sticker! I would assume a C7AF-B ink stamp starter would be an Autolite as well.
Here's a neat photo off the cover of a 1968 Ford Shop Tip. Big block C7OF-A ink stamped, almost looks like 7B dated. This brings up the point of the GT500s using the ink stamp starter as well.
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 07, 2021, 10:50:20 AM
Here's a neat photo off the cover of a 1968 Ford Shop Tip. Big block C7OF-A ink stamped, almost looks like 7B dated. This brings up the point of the GT500s using the ink stamp starter as well.
Yes ,nothing I have seen leads me to believe that the BB and SB starters transitioned from the ink stamp to metal stamp differently.
Quote from: 430dragpack on January 07, 2021, 09:26:37 AM
So, no one has a picture of an original '67 GT350, C7AF-B ink stamp starter? What are guys doing when they restore/re-stamp them? Surely not using the cheesy sticker! I would assume a C7AF-B ink stamp starter would be an Autolite as well.
We just make stamps and restamp them;) One of the challenges in making the stamp is that very few if any of the original stampings is a complete one as each one is often missing a corner, section or detail. And service replacements (the source for many reproduction parts) are stamped differently than assembly line
Agree with Bob that the ink/paint stamped versions were used at the same time the plant was receive the metal stamped ones for a while. Might have been a case where one supplying plant was still marking them older way and another the newer way. Do have records of 68 San Jose cars being assembled with the ink/paint stamped versions and the latest date found I have is one dated 7L November 1967 so at least into mid product.
Again don't take that as an indicator that only that version was used/installed during later 67 and earlier 68 San Jose production
I know this is a few months old thread, but I found a C7AF-11001-C starter with a date 8E6. What engines were the these starters used for?
Quote from: 69mach351w on March 18, 2021, 09:37:45 PM
I know this is a few months old thread, but I found a C7AF-11001-C starter with a date 8E6. What engines were the these starters used for?
That would be for a 68 302 4 speed if the case matched the nose. You can't completely trust the metal stamp on the case because many rebuilders don't use a lot of care keeping the correct case and nose cones parts together.
Thanks Bob. I was needing one for my 67 coupe 289. I think I'm going to get it rebuilt 👍🏻
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 18, 2021, 11:13:57 PM
Quote from: 69mach351w on March 18, 2021, 09:37:45 PM
I know this is a few months old thread, but I found a C7AF-11001-C starter with a date 8E6. What engines were the these starters used for?
That would be for a 68 302 4 speed if the case matched the nose. You can't completely trust the metal stamp on the case because many rebuilders don't use a lot of care keeping the correct case and nose cones parts together.
The C7AF-C is for 390/427s. A C7AF-F and possibly a C7AF-D are for the small block manual trans, according to the MPC.
Quote from: 430dragpack on March 25, 2021, 09:43:11 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 18, 2021, 11:13:57 PM
Quote from: 69mach351w on March 18, 2021, 09:37:45 PM
I know this is a few months old thread, but I found a C7AF-11001-C starter with a date 8E6. What engines were the these starters used for?
That would be for a 68 302 4 speed if the case matched the nose. You can't completely trust the metal stamp on the case because many rebuilders don't use a lot of care keeping the correct case and nose cones parts together.
The C7AF-C is for 390/427s. A C7AF-F and possibly a C7AF-D are for the small block manual trans, according to the MPC.
Chris is correct . Sorry I must have misread the post . It should have a 3 ear nose cone for a big block. If it has 2 ears then it would be a example of a rebuilder using various parts to make up a working unit regardless of application stamped on the barrel case.