When the factory assembled a 65 HiPo engine, logical to install timing cover and water pump with their attaching bolts in place before painting it all black, Was the bare stamped steel upper alternator bracket bolted to the engine before the engine was painted or was the bracket painted black and then attached to the engine using bolts that were not painted black? Would think bracket was painted black before it was attached to engine. Otherwise, really hard to completely paint entire bracket while on engine.
Would think attaching the upper alternator bracket and then painting engine would make it more difficult to later install the alternator and spacer.
Any bolts not painted?
Anyone explain engine painting and bracket assembly sequence?
Quote from: mygt350 on January 18, 2021, 11:41:30 AM
When the factory assembled a 65 HiPo engine, logical to install timing cover and water pump with their attaching bolts in place before painting it all black, Was the bare stamped steel upper alternator bracket bolted to the engine before the engine was painted or was the bracket painted black and then attached to the engine using bolts that were not painted black? Would think bracket was painted black before it was attached to engine. Otherwise, really hard to completely paint entire bracket while on engine.
Would think attaching the upper alternator bracket and then painting engine would make it more difficult to later install the alternator and spacer.
Any bolts not painted?
Anyone explain engine painting and bracket assembly sequence?
The already painted bracket was installed after the engine was painted. The already installed bolts were reused to attach the bracket. It would not be uncommon for the reused bolts to have scar marks from tools during the unbolting and bolting process. Another place that bolts were reused is on the intake manifold. No perfect painted bolts in these areas would be typical.
+1 brackets ''dipped" , in very thin paint , by the outside vendor.
Thanks for the clarification! Makes sense.
Follow on question regarding coating of the hipo balancer and the lower pulley:
1. Assume hipo balancer was painted/coated before it was installed on engine. Was the large balancer attaching nut "natural" or coated in some way?
2. Assume lower pulley was dipped by outside source in same manner as alternator bracket prior attachment. Were the three lower pully attaching bolts "natural" or coated in some way?
Quote from: mygt350 on January 18, 2021, 12:51:39 PM
Thanks for the clarification! Makes sense.
Follow on question regarding coating of the hipo balancer and the lower pulley:
1. Assume hipo balancer was painted/coated before it was installed on engine. Was the large balancer attaching nut "natural" or coated in some way?
2. Assume lower pulley was dipped by outside source in same manner as alternator bracket prior attachment. Were the three lower pully attaching bolts "natural" or coated in some way?
The balancer was painted prior to install. Pulley got a similar looking coat as the bracket.
Thanks Bob.
Would you happen to know what type coating was applied to the balancer bolt and 3 pulley bolts?
Quote from: mygt350 on January 18, 2021, 01:36:26 PM
Thanks Bob.
Would you happen to know what type coating was applied to the balancer bolt and 3 pulley bolts?
Balance bolt is P/O and so is the washer. I have many times found evidence of silver plating on the pulley bolts so that is my default.
Assuming iron intake and cast thermostat housing were bolted to the engine prior painting black by Ford. Once engine went to Shelby, SA removed the black painted thermostat and its black painted bolts as well as the black iron intake and its black painted bolts. The iron intake was replaced by the Cobra alum intake using the black painted bolts from the iron intake. The thermostat housing was reinstalled to the Cobra intake by SA, again using the painted black bolts from Ford.
So should expect to see some degree of scratches on the black painted intake and thermostat housing bolts?
Trying to consolidate what was plated/dipped/painted/allowed to rust, etc. Always get questions like why is thermostat housing black and intake is natural alum....
Thanks to all who are contributing.
Quote from: mygt350 on January 18, 2021, 02:25:04 PM
Assuming iron intake and cast thermostat housing were bolted to the engine prior painting black by Ford. Once engine went to Shelby, SA removed the black painted thermostat and its black painted bolts as well as the black iron intake and its black painted bolts. The iron intake was replaced by the Cobra alum intake using the black painted bolts from the iron intake. The thermostat housing was reinstalled to the Cobra intake by SA, again using the painted black bolts from Ford.
So should expect to see some degree of scratches on the black painted intake and thermostat housing bolts?
Trying to consolidate what was plated/dipped/painted/allowed to rust, etc. Always get questions like why is thermostat housing black and intake is natural alum....
Thanks to all who are contributing.
Yes regardless of if Shelby installed early 65 or Ford installed later ,intake bolts and thermostat housing bolts would show reuse installtion evidence.
Quote from: mygt350 on January 18, 2021, 12:51:39 PM
2. Assume lower pulley was dipped by outside source in same manner as alternator bracket prior attachment.
Sprayed like water pump pulley not dipped so that the balance remains unaffected by paint build up plus does not affect the ability for the pulley to site flush against the balancer. Often for the water pump pulley you can find where the center of the pulley was left unpainted to assure the same flat connection to the fan spacer plus the water pump flange
Am confused about pulley coatings. Was the water pump pulley and balancer pulley dipped or spray painted?
Quote from: mygt350 on January 18, 2021, 03:36:51 PM
Am confused about pulley coatings. Was the water pump pulley and balancer pulley dipped or spray painted?
As Jeff indicated pulley's typically were sprayed same with balancer because of balance issues. Even with the spray process drips sometime happened but not near as much as if dipped.
Quote from: mygt350 on January 18, 2021, 03:36:51 PM
Am confused about pulley coatings. Was the water pump pulley and balancer pulley dipped or spray painted?
Here are a couple of unrestored examples to illustrate on these pulleys across the classic period. Another note worth mentioning is that paint on the center hubs - especially allot would make installing them on a water pump or crank since there is little if any gap between the two metal surfaced.
Different application but shows results and area covered on many
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/13/6-040120153958.jpeg)
Crankshaft pulley
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/15/6-180121161759.jpeg)
As a side note. On NOS pulleys the inner edge of crank pulleys I have pictures of are bare steel as well as about a 1/16" around the hole also as if (for those service parts) they used a prepared mask of some type
So, water pump pulley, lower pulley and balancer spray painted same color as black dipped alternator brackets. No paint in bolt holes or where V belt fits.
The balancer was usually more on the satin to low gloss side of black, the pulley's had a little more gloss.
What would the texture/gloss level be for the engine block which would include timing cover and water pump attaching bolts?
Would the heater hose fitting on the intake also be painted black?
Quote from: Rbwiii on January 19, 2021, 03:17:05 PM
Would the heater hose fitting on the intake also be painted black?
There is evidence to support both ways but a new elbow fitting was the most typical from photos and original cars. I am guessing it was problematic to remove the fitting (unlike the thermostat housing) without marring it up (metal and paint damage ) is the most logical reason .
Quote from: Rbwiii on January 19, 2021, 03:17:05 PM
Would the heater hose fitting on the intake also be painted black?
They are normally not painted on a '65 engine.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on January 19, 2021, 03:21:27 PM
Quote from: Rbwiii on January 19, 2021, 03:17:05 PM
Would the heater hose fitting on the intake also be painted black?
There is evidence to support both ways but a new elbow fitting was the most typical from photos and original cars. I am guessing it was problematic to remove the fitting (unlike the thermostat housing) without marring it up (metal and paint damage ) is the most logical reason .
+1 more time and effort than installing a new one. The "fire sale" manifold and carburetors ( take offs ) were pictured with the fittings in them.
Randy
For whatever it's worth, the parts list for SFM5006 did not include an intake heater hose fitting. There may have been a time where they were re-using the Ford stock intake fittings and then switched?
So assume hipo engines had heater fitting installed prior to being painted black. During the intake swap, SA removed the painted thermostat housing and reused the housing and the black painted bolts on the Cobra intake. SA may or may not have swapped the heater fitting. My really faded memory is that the fitting on 5S228 was natural and not painted black?????
Quote from: CharlesTurner on January 19, 2021, 04:28:09 PM
For whatever it's worth, the parts list for SFM5006 did not include an intake heater hose fitting. There may have been a time where they were re-using the Ford stock intake fittings and then switched?
Charles,
At that time I think things were more relaxed ( at Venice) than when they got to the airport and production was in full swing. I think once they figured out how much time it cost , new ones were installed instead of reusing the originals. Just My Personal Opinion.
Randy
A few somewhat clear examples to help. Most are magazine pictures so these should be earlier cars. Upper left is 5S114 for example. Unfortunately they are black and white pictures so we are left to compare finished by tone of the elbow and surround part finishes.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/15/6-190121174637.jpeg)
Since the threads isn't so far, specific to a certain production period, we must not forget to mention the late "black intake" cars because those would have been painted along with the intake manifold by mistake.
The heater tube on 5S114 really appears natural and I will go with that but make note some black tubes may have been removed from the black painted iron intakes and installed on Cobra intakes and leave the transition date to a follow on discussion about the markings (or lack of) on each specific bolt.
Quote from: mygt350 on January 19, 2021, 06:15:07 PM
The heater tube on 5S114 really appears natural and I will go with that but make note some black tubes may have been removed from the black painted iron intakes and installed on Cobra intakes and leave the transition date to a follow on discussion about the markings (or lack of) on each specific bolt.
Now remember that "natural" just means unpainted for some people. You will need to assure that you have one plated correctly ;)
Quote from: mygt350 on January 19, 2021, 06:15:07 PM
The heater tube on 5S114 really appears natural and I will go with that but make note some black tubes may have been removed from the black painted iron intakes and installed on Cobra intakes and leave the transition date to a follow on discussion about the markings (or lack of) on each specific bolt.
The finish is most typically zinc dichromate which is gold. I wouldn't be surprised to find some silver. That chromate coating wears off easily . Underneath the coating is silver because the chromate has to have a zinc base to stick to.
+1 Bob ,
I have had more than one NOS that were zinc without the gold dichromate. It is also important to note that the plating was "industrial quality" , more like a "flash plating" to curb rust that a "current" trip to the plater part would be. this is why many have rust on them after all these years. I know mine does.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on January 20, 2021, 11:00:50 AM
+1 Bob ,
I have had more than one NOS that were zinc without the gold dichromate. It is also important to note that the plating was "industrial quality" , more like a "flash plating" to curb rust that a "current" trip to the plater part would be. this is why many have rust on them after all these years. I know mine does.
Randy
+1 New cars were never intended to stay assembly line fresh. Most components were not considered 'appearance' items. Anything not specified as what we use to call Class A Appearance might have only had 16 hours to a few days of corrosion protection in mind when drawn up and costs calculated. I would not have trouble believing that many mechanical parts only had to be corrosion free long enough to get installed. (I did not work in automotive but I did work in a manufacturing and assembly plant for 37 years and some parts just had to be clean enough for operators to be able to safely handle and install them. How they looked later was not a concern at all. Even some of the bulk steel and aluminum purchased in large coils only had to be protected from corrosion so stamping dies and roll mills would not get fouled with corrosion byproducts. If the parts corroded a little later it didn't matter as long as production operators didn't have safety or installation issues.)
Sorry Dan ,
My information came from seeing the notations on various Ford blue prints over the years. The heater elbow in question would not have one spec for assembly line and another for Parts and Service division. I doubt they were ever ''bare steel" on the blueprint.
Quote from: gt350hr on January 20, 2021, 12:32:06 PM
Sorry Dan ,
My information came from seeing the notations on various Ford blue prints over the years. The heater elbow in question would not have one spec for assembly line and another for Parts and Service division. I doubt they were ever ''bare steel" on the blueprint.
Understood but how much plating thickness and how much dichromate conversion coating extent could be highly variable. It is also possible that there was more than one manufacturing plant and or more than one supplier that would mean almost nothing to the assembly line workers. To me it is not authentic to make every part on every car assembled months apart exactly the same in appearance UNLESS one manufacturing lot covered all that type of product. One lot would not have covered the tens of thousands of 1965 Fords that used that part for example.
Then there are possibility of deviations. Assembly plants of all kinds know about deviations. They have some purchased part or material with at least one detail that does not meet specifications and or drawings. For all kinds of reasons, the assembly plant can accept the out of tolerance condition. That is another layer of variability at the end product level.
Service parts might not be made by the same company(ies) that made the assembly line parts, or same period, or manufacturing plant, or even country. Today looking back decades that was another layer of variability.
My only point is I would not expect, in this case, every heater elbow in every 1965 Mustang engine that used this part, Shelby or not, over months of time to be exactly 100% alike in appearance. I recommend finding unmolested examples assembled in short time frame around whatever you are working on to see what assembly of the time was like.
I see your point. I will say this not "all" parts were "perfect" . I'm sure you are aware as to how electro chemical plating is done and how parts like this are wired to racks for the plating process. These were very "low time" plated parts as I mentioned and probably not closely inspected for voids in the plating . They were sent in bulk boxes to the engine assembly plants for "line installation" . That is the way SAI got them. I saw a partial box full of them years ago. Fast forward to having one plated now days and the plater would "most likely' want to make it nice looking since you are paying much more than the pennies added to the cost of the original parts to Ford. It might "cook" for 10-15 minutes instead of three to five back then.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on January 20, 2021, 04:13:55 PM
I see your point. I will say this not "all" parts were "perfect" . I'm sure you are aware as to how electro chemical plating is done and how parts like this are wired to racks for the plating process. These were very "low time" plated parts as I mentioned and probably not closely inspected for voids in the plating . They were sent in bulk boxes to the engine assembly plants for "line installation" . That is the way SAI got them. I saw a partial box full of them years ago. Fast forward to having one plated now days and the plater would "most likely' want to make it nice looking since you are paying much more than the pennies added to the cost of the original parts to Ford. It might "cook" for 10-15 minutes instead of three to five back then.
Randy
Applies to most plated parts. Unless you tell them otherwise replating shops will probably put much more plating on than O.E.M's required. They also tend to go wild with dichromate conversion coatings also.
Seems like there could easily be some instances where SA removed the black painted water tube on the cast iron manifold and reinstalled it in the cobra intake. More likely, due to time/effort, SA used "new" tubes that may have been finished in different levels of zinc dichromate which is a gold color. However, thin chromate coating wears off easily. Underneath the coating is silver because the chromate has to have a zinc base to stick to. Thinner levels of chromate and wear would appear more silver.
The bulk box I saw in the '70s had silver zinc plated parts. Every individually boxed "OTC" part was gold dichromate plated that I have owned.
Randy
Ford published the plating specifics in their parts plating schedule, which is reproduced in the AMK guide to fasteners and other places. The thickness is called out as well as typical salt spray test specifics. This covers all the fastener prefixes like S2, S7, S8, S36, etc.. As mentioned, there most certainly was some variance, but would expect there to be quality control tests done periodically. I wouldn't characterize it as the wild-wild-west and don't mean to infer anyone has done that here, but it's important to note there were engineering specifications.
The gold S36 plating is zinc with dichromate. Any of those parts have a shiny zinc base plating. I have stripped the gold on pieces and re-applied with success. The gold was most likely decorative or indicated certain usage. I've noticed some electrical fasteners seem to have this finish more than basic zinc S8.