They've finally posted the entire interview.
Love Herbie, love the Head Hunters and gotta love his story.
- Phillip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1SQn4stkXA
Back in 2007 I was in the LA area on business. A friend suggested we go to the Shelby annual show at Newport Pier. There were maybe 20 - 25 cars there all Shelby Mustangs. It started raining, light at first, then a bit steadier. Just then the white 260 Cobra pulls in and parks pretty much in the middle of the show. Herbie and his daughter got out. She was driving. Even though it was raining she opened the hood for all of us to see.
It was a great car then and now. Always enjoyed Herbie's music. I have a couple of his albums on 8 Track tape. They get played regularly in the shop.
BTW the other car that was truly remarkable at that show was an unrestored 1967 GT500.
Phillip, thanks for posting ! this might have been up on the old forum ? 8)
Mike
(image: Road & Track/Ken Dallison) might have been part of an article by Peter Egan ?
When that Cobra finally does go up for sale (auction?) I bet it brings more than 2 million.
As a teenager in the early/mid '70s I was a BIG progressive rock and jazz fusion fan. Loved the Head Hunters, and Return to Forever (RIP Chick Corea), Tony Williams Lifetime, Mahavishnu Orchestra, etc.
I would be up in my room, crank that up on my turntable and draw and paint all night long.
Love the AC badge on the back and the early steering wheel.
Also just love those wire wheels!
- Phillip
Quote from: Royce Peterson on February 19, 2021, 07:40:04 PM
Back in 2007 I was in the LA area on business. A friend suggested we go to the Shelby annual show at Newport Pier. There were maybe 20 - 25 cars there all Shelby Mustangs. It started raining, light at first, then a bit steadier. Just then the white 260 Cobra pulls in and parks pretty much in the middle of the show. Herbie and his daughter got out. She was driving. Even though it was raining she opened the hood for all of us to see.
It was a great car then and now. Always enjoyed Herbie's music. I have a couple of his albums on 8 Track tape. They get played regularly in the shop.
BTW the other car that was truly remarkable at that show was an unrestored 1967 GT500.
Very cool story Royce!
- Phillip
Even cooler - they were using the side curtains and had the top up. You never see even a kit car Cobra being driven in the rain.
I've seen it in person and it's just awesome! Car #8
As Cobras go, it's actually car #6, as in CSX 2006.
Ned .
Herbie and Hank are about the only "original owners" left right?
Quote from: Cobra Ned on March 08, 2021, 08:32:20 AM
As Cobras go, it's actually car #6, as in CSX 2006.
Since the numbering started with CSX 2000, wouldn't CSX 2006 be the 7th car?
Saw it in the back of a bmw repair shop once ;)Its a cool one.
I enjoyed watching this a lot, thanks for posting. Great stories, great guys and a great car. (Crazy it came with a two-barrel carb!)
Several did , 2005 was another.
Would that mean those cars with the 2 barrel were the base 260 164 horsepower engine of the time that was being used in other Fords? If so, I know the cars are light as feathers and they got a dual exhaust system but really, how fast were they?
IIRC, the 260 cars were rated 260 horsepower with a 4V carburetor. I was under the impression that the 260 engine as used in early Cobras came with a mechanical cam as well as a higher compression ratio than the garden variety 260 of the day.
Your right. 260 horsepower solid cam 4v 260 in first cobra.
Mechanical cam , yes, but they still had flat top pistons with no valve reliefs. They were right at 10-1 with a 48 cc head or 9.5 with a 53. The first engines were "special builds" and had "XHP 260" on the valve cover, and the sequential build number after that.
The 2v engines were the same except for the carburetor?
Quote from: 68stangcjfb on March 09, 2021, 01:51:11 PM
Would that mean those cars with the 2 barrel were the base 260 164 horsepower engine of the time that was being used in other Fords? If so, I know the cars are light as feathers and they got a dual exhaust system but really, how fast were they? CSX2000 being painted different colors and given to different magazines for road testing obviously had a 289 hipo in it?
This thread has drifted away from the original topic.
CSX2000 got two different XHP-260 engines since arrival in the USA. XHP-260 engines were protoypes made by Ford engineers, Some parts were production 260, some production parts that got modified by the engineers, and many parts were custom made. Even parts like big bolts had part numbers marked on them. Most of the protoype parts had individual serial numbers marked on them. Bob Mannel did a reverse engineering study on XHP-260-4 out of a Cobra for me and the owner of the unrestored engine back around April 2013. The more interesting, to us, findings are documented in his online version of his book.
Engine XHP-260-4 came out of a Cobra and got transplanted into a racing Ferrari. Circa 1993 the engine was removed from the Ferrari as it regained a Ferrari engine like it originally had. Bob Mannel's study and publication covers the various known details. I have over 2,000 close pictures of components and some technical data files Bob made during the study. The details of all the prototype and preproduction parts in this old engine are staggering to comprehend. Based on a key part's serial numbering I believe only 35 each XHP-260 engines were made. Cobras were not the only vehicle and Shelby American wasn't the only users. XHP-260 engines represented racing technology as Ford engineering understood it in 1961. By the time HP289s went into production in March 1963 a lot changed, mostly in cylinder head components. Still, HP289s were 1962 technology.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/274-090321170948.jpeg)
After XHP-260 engines there was a semi-production High Performance 260. Ford made at least 137 of them because #137 was installed in a new Cobra. The HP260s are the grandparents of the HP289 components wise except cylinder head assemblies which were like XHP-260 engines. Again, Cobras were not the only vehicle and Shelby American wasn't the only users. Dearborn Steel Tubing Company built up a prototype Ford Falcon with a HP260 engine and Ford allowed a magazine company to road test it and publish the results.
Ford did not start testing preproduction HP289s until the September October 1962 time frame. HP289 production started the first work day of March 1963.
Quote from: 68stangcjfb on March 09, 2021, 01:51:11 PM
Would that mean those cars with the 2 barrel were the base 260 164 horsepower engine of the time that was being used in other Fords? If so, I know the cars are light as feathers and they got a dual exhaust system but really, how fast were they? CSX2000 being painted different colors and given to different magazines for road testing obviously had a 289 hipo in it?
Carroll let me drive CSX2000, back in 1999, for Motor Trend's 50th Anniversary special issue. It smoked quite a bit when you were into the throttle, but still ran strong.
I certainly didn't want to beat on it, but I'd say it felt as powerful as other early (unmodified) ones I've driven.
Dan and Bob's work is incredible. Documenting such a rare prototype engine is really important and revealing. These were really "ground breaking" builds that led to "common engines'' later on. Nice work!
Quote from: gt350hr on March 10, 2021, 12:40:44 PM
Dan and Bob's work is incredible. Documenting such a rare prototype engine is really important and revealing. These were really "ground breaking" builds that led to "common engines'' later on. Nice work!
+1. If you are a ford racing enthusiast and don't have a copy of Bob's book, you are doing yourself a major disservice. Appendix I on the HP 289 and HP C4 transmission is worth the price alone. Absolutely a bible for the Ford small block line of engines.
Quote from: gt350hr on March 10, 2021, 12:40:44 PM
Dan and Bob's work is incredible. Documenting such a rare prototype engine is really important and revealing. These were really "ground breaking" builds that led to "common engines'' later on. Nice work!
Bob had a prototype HP289 engine of his own for a while but I think he sold it. It is interesting to us to see how Ford engineers did things and get a look into what they were thinking while developing engines. Everybody with HP289 powered cars should be glad some of the XHP-260 and HP260 part designs didn't survive into HP289s.
Quote from: gt350hr on March 08, 2021, 12:32:18 PM
Ned .
Herbie and Hank are about the only "original owners" left right?
You'd think so, but nope: there are 8 leaf-spring Cobras still in the hands of their original owners, and 7 coil-spring cars. That doesn't include a couple owned by the families of the original owners.
^^^ That is amazing!
- Phillip
+1 Thanks as always Ned!
My friend, Chris Layton has recalled the story to me on when Herbie bought the car out I believe Manhattan. Said he walked in to the dealership and told him he wanted to car. they did not believe him. He left went to the bank got cash came back and paid them! I have not watched the Jay Leno interview yet. So hopefully I'm not reiterating on what happened with the car.
Chris
Quote from: cbrown on March 14, 2021, 08:03:01 PM
My friend, Chris Layton has recalled the story to me on when Herbie bought the car out I believe Manhattan. Said he walked in to the dealership and told him he wanted to car. they did not believe him. He left went to the bank got cash came back and paid them! I have not watched the Jay Leno interview yet. So hopefully I'm not reiterating on what happened with the car.
Chris
True story. Salesman barely gave him the time of day, stated something like, "Do you know how much this car costs?", basically blew him off. Herbie came back with cash and bought the car. He has stated something along the lines of, "The car would never mean as much to anyone else as it does to me", as it was his first big purchase after he started making money as a musician. Gross oversimplification of the story, but basically that is what happened.
Great thread, cbrown and 68gtcoupe thanks for the story behind the purchase of the Cobra !
Not a Shelby, but much the same,
Reminds me of Canadian rocker Rompin' Ronnie Hawkins going into a dealer in 1967 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and looking at a
Rolls Royce. The salesman blew him off, so he went to the bank drew out $18,500 Canadian put it in a bag returned to the dealer
and dumped the money on the floor, and drove away in the car. The part I like is he asked the manager what the salesman's
commission would be, $1,500, took that money out of the bag and bought the car 8)
Gordon Lightfoot, another Canadian singer, wrote a song about it called "Silver Cloud Talk'n Blues"
Mike
Quote from: honker on March 15, 2021, 10:08:14 AM
Not a Shelby, but much the same,
Reminds me of Canadian rocker Rompin' Ronnie Hawkins going into a dealer in 1967 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and looking at a
Rolls Royce. The salesman blew him off, so he went to the bank drew out $18,500 Canadian put it in a bag returned to the dealer
and dumped the money on the floor, and drove away in the car. The part I like is he asked the manager what the salesman's
commission would be, $1,500, took that money out of the bag and bought the car 8)
Mike
Reminds me of back in the late 70's I was working at a Mercury dealer in NW Detroit,
one day a guy comes in in his "super fly" disco outfit and pulls enough cash out of his fanny pouch to buy a Lincoln Continental,
bright blue, white interior, with white vinyl top, on the spot.
We all were betting the likelihood the cash was the product of certain non-legal activities !!??
regards,
jim p
Quote from: Dan Case on March 09, 2021, 05:04:41 PM
Quote from: 68stangcjfb on March 09, 2021, 01:51:11 PM
Would that mean those cars with the 2 barrel were the base 260 164 horsepower engine of the time that was being used in other Fords? If so, I know the cars are light as feathers and they got a dual exhaust system but really, how fast were they? CSX2000 being painted different colors and given to different magazines for road testing obviously had a 289 hipo in it?
This thread has drifted away from the original topic.
CSX2000 got two different XHP-260 engines since arrival in the USA. XHP-260 engines were protoypes made by Ford engineers, Some parts were production 260, some production parts that got modified by the engineers, and many parts were custom made. Even parts like big bolts had part numbers marked on them. Most of the protoype parts had individual serial numbers marked on them. Bob Mannel did a reverse engineering study on XHP-260-4 out of a Cobra for me and the owner of the unrestored engine back around April 2013. The more interesting, to us, findings are documented in his online version of his book.
Engine XHP-260-4 came out of a Cobra and got transplanted into a racing Ferrari. Circa 1993 the engine was removed from the Ferrari as it regained a Ferrari engine like it originally had. Bob Mannel's study and publication covers the various known details. I have over 2,000 close pictures of components and some technical data files Bob made during the study. The details of all the prototype and preproduction parts in this old engine are staggering to comprehend. Based on a key part's serial numbering I believe only 35 each XHP-260 engines were made. Cobras were not the only vehicle and Shelby American wasn't the only users. XHP-260 engines represented racing technology as Ford engineering understood it in 1961. By the time HP289s went into production in March 1963 a lot changed, mostly in cylinder head components. Still, HP289s were 1962 technology.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/274-090321170948.jpeg)
After XHP-260 engines there was a semi-production High Performance 260. Ford made at least 137 of them because #137 was installed in a new Cobra. The HP260s are the grandparents of the HP289 components wise except cylinder head assemblies which were like XHP-260 engines. Again, Cobras were not the only vehicle and Shelby American wasn't the only users. Dearborn Steel Tubing Company built up a prototype Ford Falcon with a HP260 engine and Ford allowed a magazine company to road test it and publish the results.
Ford did not start testing preproduction HP289s until the September October 1962 time frame. HP289 production started the first work day of March 1963.
This photo from Peterson's website shows the XHP-260-8 in CSX2002 during the testing at RIR with Krause driving.
I suspect this is just prior to the initial race, 8 hr Invitational Oct 12~14th 1962?
jim p
^^^^^^^ Excuse my ignorance on two items in the above pix.^^^^^^^ But I'd appreciate knowing...
1. Magneto? Didn't know the Cobra race cars ran those in 1962.
2. Intake manifold. Aluminum or cast iron? Why paint an aluminum intake?
Quote from: Side-Oilers on March 15, 2021, 03:25:54 PM
^^^^^^^ Excuse my ignorance on two items in the above pix.^^^^^^^ But I'd appreciate knowing...
1. Magneto? Didn't know the Cobra race cars ran those in 1962.
2. Intake manifold. Aluminum or cast iron? Why paint an aluminum intake?
Believe that would be the Spalding Flamethrower ignition system perhaps?
Can't comment on the intake manifold
Quote from: Side-Oilers on March 15, 2021, 03:25:54 PM
^^^^^^^ Excuse my ignorance on two items in the above pix.^^^^^^^ But I'd appreciate knowing...
1. Magneto? Didn't know the Cobra race cars ran those in 1962.
2. Intake manifold. Aluminum or cast iron? Why paint an aluminum intake?
1. Shelby American initially used SPALDING® ignitions even though all the XHP-260, HP260, and 1963½ HP289 engines came from Ford with dual point mechanical advance ignition distributors; three very different dual point assemblies. Use continued to at least the Sebring race 1963. For example CSX2128 was first raced with a Spalding unit and later in 1963 with a Ford dual point. Use by Shelby American depended on time frame. Customers could use whatever they wanted probably.
2. Cast iron. It is likely that Shelby's crew painted the engine black as Ford's practice for prototype iron engines was paint individual parts and assemblies in odd colors to help keep track of them; as in don't let them get out the door by accident. XHP-260 engines were supplied with experimental cast iron Ford 4V intake manifolds. Unless you count Holman-Moody's operations single 4V aluminum intake manifolds was not in the market place. Ford 260 engines were announced to the world as available for order as a 1962½ model year addition February 17, 1962. Some of the parts in XHP-260 engines were made in the second quarter 1961. A little later Shelby American bought Holman-Moody aluminum 4V low rise 260 intakes and normally milled the Holman-Moody logo off before installing in a Cobra. The aluminum intake became a regular street and race part for Cobras but only a handful were installed. The first COBRA lettered aluminum intake came out about mid 1963 as street and race option. It was provided by Holman-Moody by replacing their logo with COBRA text. Unfortunately the intake was designed for a 260 c.i.d. engine in terms of 1961 racing technology. They were offered as a regular production option on HP289 powered Cobras, a bad idea it turned out performance wise, until about the end of summer 1964. 4V intakes for 260 engines is a very complicated subject as Ford went through several design iterations in a very short time period. The Holman-Moody intake created for rally racing Ford Falcons in Europe got revised over and over to change logo or have no logo; there was even a version for Sunbeam Tigers. The aftermarket getting swamped with versions of aftermarket aluminum 4V intakes did not happen it seems until Shelby American came out with the first racing COBRA high rise intake in 1964. Years later Shelby American advertising indicated that the COBRA high rise intake 'kicked off' the post 1964 performance 4V aluminum intake market.
Fantastic and endlessly fascinating information.
- Phillip
Quote from: propayne on March 15, 2021, 04:42:19 PM
Fantastic and endlessly fascinating information.
- Phillip
"Cobra" engines and their details is an extremely complicated set of subjects. My main file started on an index card decades ago and is now 94 pages in length. Then some specific subjects have their own files and some are quite large by themselves.
I enjoy learning new and interesting things about these cars, especially the early ones. Thanks for the information!
Quote from: 68gtcoupe on March 15, 2021, 05:04:56 PM
I enjoy learning new and interesting things about these cars, especially the early ones. Thanks for the information!
You are welcome. Cobras are very complicated study material.
Dan ,
In looking at your photo, the intake appears "taller" than a production intake AND it has the half inch phenolic spacer under the carb. For the "resto crowd" , notice the "high tech" "pinched off" choke tube. Let's see that at Pebble Beach!
Your exhausting research shows EXACTLY how much ''seat of the pants" stuff was done early on . This is in direct contrast to those feel everything was "uniform". SO many are "over restored" versus a "period" photo like this. Pretty doesn't win races , performance does.
Quote from: gt350hr on March 15, 2021, 05:21:30 PM
Dan ,
In looking at your photo, the intake appears "taller" than a production intake AND it has the half inch phenolic spacer under the carb. For the "resto crowd" , notice the "high tech" "pinched off" choke tube. Let's see that at Pebble Beach!
Your exhausting research shows EXACTLY how much ''seat of the pants" stuff was done early on . This is in direct contrast to those feel everything was "uniform". SO many are "over restored" versus a "period" photo like this. Pretty doesn't win races , performance does.
LOL, if it is pretty chances are 1) SA didn't do it OR 2) somebody took crude SA shop work and made it pretty. Ever here the phrase 'cut to length, beat to fit, and paint to match' ?
Both XHP-260 and HP260 engines were built by Ford with a thick phenolic carburetor spacer. They had a Ford part number ink stamped onto them but don't bother trying to find a Ford record of it. There was a earlier production part Ford apparently increased size of (machined an existing molded part) the four bores in order to work with the prototype Ford 4100-A carburetors.
I don't know anybody that will restore anything Cobra or 427 Cobra made in the Shelby team groups to the way it was. If you look in day one race car pictures you will see items, especially throttle linking parts, that look cadmium plated. Most were not, especially before mid 1965. If the part was for a team car it probably didn't get painted or plated. Many things that appear to be clear cadmium plated were painted with magnesium color aircraft type engine paint. That includes various parts street and race. Sometime parts got painted black. One length of Weber linkage got spray painted a sort of robin's egg blue. Factory levers for Weber carburetors for opposed systems were hand made and today look really crude. They painted them AFTER installation with a brush right over any grease, oil, layout dye, or whatever was on the part as installed.
Crude, Shelby's production department used a sharp pointed tool and a hammer to drive holes in oil pans for a place to install an oil temperature sensor. A brass male x female adapter fitting was pushed into each hole with some brazing flux. The fitting was brazed into the oil pan. Done. No cleaning of heat scale or excess hardened flux inside or outside the oil pan. No paint touch up. I have found lots of heat scale and flux inside stock steel oil pans even after a few decades. I could discuss other standard crude practices for hours. Yes, I spot RESTORED cars claimed to be unrestored real quick when all the S-A details are way too pretty.
Example: Typical oil temperature sensor installation. Very low mile unrestored late 427 Cobra.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/274-150321175406.jpeg)
Example: Typical inside oil detail CSX2201-CSX2589 cars with electric temperature sensor. Note dark gray scale. Scale pops off in flakes and can cause severe engine damage especially if scale gets embedded in bearing inserts. The red rust blush on this pan is in no doubt due that the engine was out of the car and stored 'dry' between about 1975 and 2007.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/274-150321180240.jpeg)
Wow, Dan...you continue to amaze and delight with your knowledge! We REALLY appreciate it!
Was there any measurable performance or maintenance advantage to using the Spalding versus the Ford ignitions?
Your pix of the inside of the oil pan: How scary to have had to rely on that "Get 'er done now" installation. Of course, very few, if any original (or until the engine was rebuilt) Cobra owners had any idea of the "workmanship."
To your knowledge, did any of those bung fittings ever blow out of the pan?
Quote from: Side-Oilers on March 15, 2021, 07:59:56 PM
Wow, Dan...you continue to amaze and delight with your knowledge! We REALLY appreciate it!
Was there any measurable performance or maintenance advantage to using the Spalding versus the Ford ignitions?
Your pix of the inside of the oil pan: How scary to have had to rely on that "Get 'er done now" installation. Of course, very few, if any original (or until the engine was rebuilt) Cobra owners had any idea of the "workmanship." And
To your knowledge, did any of those bung fittings ever blow out of the pan?
Ignition, I have no idea but the Ford units proved satisfactory for many racing victories in Cobras and were used while winning various championships wherever they raced.
I have never heard of a fitting coming out of an oil pan by itself. It is not that rare to find an original pan that had had its fitting removed and the hole closed in some manner. (Normally an engine moved from a Cobra to some other type vehicle.)
Just because any given Cobra's engine got overhauled, rebuilt, or blue printed does not mean anybody noticed and or cared about removing flux and scale inside oil pans. I doubt most people would have thought anything of some discoloration. I had the oil pan off our black car in 1984. There was still hardened flux clinging to the threads of the brass fitting and of course a halo of dark heating scale around the new port. (I installed a COBRA POWERED BY FORD aluminum oil pan at the time. The original pan is stored carefully in case the next owner wants to restore the car to day one.)
Early on Shelby American fabricators did not clean the insides of racing oil pans and rocker arm covers that they created from what came on the engines from Ford. Brazing was part of the fabrication process for both pans and covers. Parts were fabricated and painted on the outside, usually black. Oil pump pickups were also modified for endurance reasons. A string of engine failures got Ford Motor Company's notice. Ford did failure analysis on some of the failed race engines and found the damage was initiated by heat created steel scale getting loose in the engines. The scale is very hard and brittle. Anyway the recommendation was to cadmium plate modified oil pump pickups, oil pans, and rocker arm covers. As part of the plating process assemblies were "pickled" in acid to get bare steel everywhere for plating. The acid removed the scale and left over flux. The problem of engine failures due to heat scale was then in the past. The Shelby works pan we are using in our red car was fabricated before the introduction of cadmium plating. It had never been plated. For our engine project we had it cadmium plated and yes before preparation for plating in the 21st century there was still some scale left attached and some hardened flux in places.
The advantage of the Spaulding ignition initially was the point cam was softer and allowed more RPM before point float which limited RPM. Ford eventually used "low inertia" point from the transistorized ignitions to curb point float.
Randy