When we're the VINs added to the Engine and Trans for 69s? Was it at Ford or Smith? Was it different for earlier models built at Shelby in California?
Thanks
AO Smith did not add VINs. All Ford products have the numbers in the same places. No, California makes no difference.
Your question refers to "early models built in California" are you asking about pre 1968 Shelbys?
Quote from: SChatman on February 28, 2021, 10:58:26 AM
When we're the VINs added to the Engine and Trans for 69s? Was it at Ford or Smith? Was it different for earlier models built at Shelby in California?
Thanks
The particular assemblyine Ford Plant added the VINs regardless of early or late Shelby.
The 1969 Shelby's were built at the Dearborn Rouge plant. No 1969 Shelby was built in California. The VIN was stamped on the engine assembly prior to installation in the car at the Dearborn Rouge Assembly plant.
Not all factory VIN's were stamped on the block in 1969, some had them had partial, rough, hand stamped VIN's into the back of the drivers side head.
Bill
Quote from: Bill on February 28, 2021, 01:51:43 PM
Not all factory VIN's were stamped on the block in 1969, some had them had partial, rough, hand stamped VIN's into the back of the drivers side head.
Early 69s (built in 68) may get away with no numbers. They changed the law 1-1-69 on how to mark the cars and parts so they could identify cars easily and track down stolen parts. Prior to that manufacturers weren't required to serialize the parts but many did some for warranty identification.
A. History and Overview of the VIN System
Since 1954, American automobile manufacturers have used a vehicle identification number (VIN) to describe and identify each of the motor vehicles they manufacture. The early VINs came in a wide array of configurations and variations, depending on the individual manufacturer. A move to create a more systematic VIN scheme was made in 1968, with the enactment of Federal motor vehicle safety standard (FMVSS) No. 115, which took effect January 1, 1969. That standard required each passenger car to have a VIN that is permanently "sunk or embossed" on a part of the vehicle visible through the glazing by a person standing at the left windshield pillar. Manufacturers were required to avoid having a VIN be repeated within a 10-year period.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on February 28, 2021, 02:24:24 PM
Early 69s (built in 68) may get away with no numbers. They changed the law 1-1-69 on how to mark the cars and parts so they could identify cars easily and track down stolen parts. Prior to that manufacturers weren't required to serialize the parts but many did some for warranty identification.
Believe (don't have the copy in front of me at the moment) you will find that the change was mandatory 1/1/68. Though many US companies were doign it to some engines and transmissions for years prior
I agree it would seem unlikely that they would do it for 1968 , pause and then restart.
The 1969 FORD production assembly manuals have directions for adding the VINs.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-280221162833.jpeg)
Scan of a document I've posted in the past from an auto thief book from the time period. One of my father's reference guides for work and when teaching the subject
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/9/6-071217184041.jpeg)
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 28, 2021, 02:43:42 PM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on February 28, 2021, 02:24:24 PM
Early 69s (built in 68) may get away with no numbers. They changed the law 1-1-69 on how to mark the cars and parts so they could identify cars easily and track down stolen parts. Prior to that manufacturers weren't required to serialize the parts but many did some for warranty identification.
Believe (don't have the copy in front of me at the moment) you will find that the change was mandatory 1/1/68. Though many US companies were doign it to some engines and transmissions for years prior
There was no set requirement or format for VINS prior to the 68 law. Some manufacturers and states registered cars by engine number and others by body numbers. I had a 54 Studebaker that had been registered by the engine number. The engine was gone so paperwork matched nothing. Studebaker factory records showed that engine had been installed in the body I had so DMV changed the title. Most manufacturers phase in changes early so they are consistent for the entire model year.
It had to be done by 1-1-69. This is from the DOT website about VINs:
VIN scheme was made in 1968, with the enactment of Federal motor vehicle safety standard (FMVSS) No. 115, which took effect January 1, 1969.
And dont forget all the ford plants doing it different at different times so always check the date codes.
At least San Jose started Job 1 for 68 production for all engine and transmission combinations. Guess to get a head start on the 1/1/68 requirement. Sure no one at the plants wanted to get hit with penalties and such
Guess the current DOT site could be in error or its a misprint. Likely no one there now that was around back then :) Kind of like when Ford put out that they didn't stamp all engines and transmissions except for high performance engines in one of their brochures a few years back.
Thanks everybody, I knew it was required for VINs to be stamped on the drive train at some point, I just wasn't sure where it was done. I was on a Facebook site where a few people were saying "numbers matching" had to do with correct date coded parts not vin numbers and I had always heard it was having the original drive train with VIN numbers stamped on them.
Quote from: SChatman on March 01, 2021, 12:21:44 AM
Thanks everybody, I knew it was required for VINs to be stamped on the drive train at some point, I just wasn't sure where it was done. I was on a Facebook site where a few people were saying "numbers matching" had to do with correct date coded parts not vin numbers and I had always heard it was having the original drive train with VIN numbers stamped on them.
"Numbers Matching" means allot of different things to different people. Just like "restored" "original" "rebuilt" on and on.
Its always a good practice IMHO to ask what the term means to the person using it or making the claim so there is less confusion or misunderstanding
Of course, I had completely forgotten about 1954 Studebakers...
..and Facebook
I have an April built 69 and if I remember correctly the date codes seemed correct but there was no VIN stamping on the engine - matching the Shelby # or otherwise. The previous owner believed it may have not been stamped in error. I know I've seen earlier original cars with extra VIN's, No VIN's and, mixed VIN's. I've seen 69/70 cars with partial VIN's on shock towers (maybe plant code and sequential number). However, it sounds like from these posts that its unlikely a 69/70 Shelby or Mustang got out the door without the VIN on the engine? If that's the case I'll have to try and get to it again and relook but I'm pretty sure there's nothing at all. Great topic, thanks.
Things have to be taken in totality, the history of the car, the casting dates and the stampings.
I believe the original post is specifically about stamping VINs on engines.
These numbers were supposed to be hidden.
Most times when people say they are missing, they are looking in the wrong places or the stampings are not cleaned off properly. The stampings can easily be painted over or covered by corrosion . Some have other agendas.
Some are seeking a loose interpretation so they claim matching numbers. It is really not that big of a factor for most people.
Quote from: Coralsnake on March 01, 2021, 08:59:28 AM
Things have to be taken in totality, the history of the car, the casting dates and the stampings.
I believe the original post is specifically about stamping VINs on engines.
These numbers were supposed to be hidden.
Most times when people say they are missing, they are looking in the wrong places or the stampings are not cleaned off properly. The stampings can easily be painted over or covered by corrosion . Some have other agendas.
Some are seeking a loose interpretation so they claim matching numbers. It is really not that big of a factor for most people.
+1 .Well said.
Quote from: J_Speegle on March 01, 2021, 12:14:40 AM
At least San Jose started Job 1 for 68 production for all engine and transmission combinations. Guess to get a head start on the 1/1/68 requirement. Sure no one at the plants wanted to get hit with penalties and such
Guess the current DOT site could be in error or its a misprint. Likely no one there now that was around back then :) Kind of like when Ford put out that they didn't stamp all engines and transmissions except for high performance engines in one of their brochures a few years back.
Read
took effect January 1, 1969 for yourself - Section II Paragraph I. Yes nobody is still there from the time but all their paperwork is. Before the law was written all the manufacturers would have been given an opportunity to comment and get a a head start on the future.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/fmvss/VIN_Final_Rule_April_08.pdf
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on March 01, 2021, 11:02:05 AM
Quote from: J_Speegle on March 01, 2021, 12:14:40 AM
At least San Jose started Job 1 for 68 production for all engine and transmission combinations. Guess to get a head start on the 1/1/68 requirement. Sure no one at the plants wanted to get hit with penalties and such
Guess the current DOT site could be in error or its a misprint. Likely no one there now that was around back then :) Kind of like when Ford put out that they didn't stamp all engines and transmissions except for high performance engines in one of their brochures a few years back.
Read took effect January 1, 1969 for yourself - Section II Paragraph I. Yes nobody is still there from the time but all their paperwork is. Before the law was written all the manufacturers would have been given an opportunity to comment and get a a head start on the future.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/fmvss/VIN_Final_Rule_April_08.pdf
Given the back and forth I decided to googled the subject. From the Federal Register , Daily Journal of the United States Government .https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2008/04/30/08-1197/vehicle-identification-number-requirements . It appears to be a DOT document which it is reasonable to assume carries credibility. . If you scroll down to A. History and Overview of the VIN System in regard to VIN info it states what took effect January 1 of 1969 was - That standard required each passenger car to have a VIN that is permanently "sunk or embossed" on a part of the vehicle visible through the glazing by a person standing at the left windshield pillar. Although VIN related this Jan 1 of 1969 mandate does not appear to apply to subject of the thread which is when the VIN was added to the engine and trans.
I think we might also add a requirement does not preclude Ford from doing it voluntarily.
So far I havent seen any "evidence" they were not stamped in accordance with production manuals.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on March 01, 2021, 11:02:05 AM
Read took effect January 1, 1969 for yourself - Section II Paragraph I. Yes nobody is still there from the time but all their paperwork is. Before the law was written all the manufacturers would have been given an opportunity to comment and get a a head start on the future.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.gov/files/fmvss/VIN_Final_Rule_April_08.pdf
Believe we are "talking" past each other and not about the same thing My references and focus was towards the stamping of engine and transmissions
So where should the vin be on a early 69 gt350 engine
It should be here:
http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-280221162833.jpeg
Quote from: shlb69 on March 04, 2021, 09:11:24 PM
So where should the vin be on a early 69 gt350 engine
My December 1968 completed shelby has the last 5 digits of the vin on the rear of block, and on top of fmx transmission.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-050321092723.jpeg)
Rear face of block as installed, just below left cylinder head on 351.
...right where the Ford book says
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/8-050321093252.jpeg)
Back to the original poster...
If you have matching date codes that is not the same as "matching numbers"
Big difference. Please let Facebook know that
Quote from: Bill on February 28, 2021, 01:51:43 PM
Not all factory VIN's were stamped on the block in 1969, some had them had partial, rough, hand stamped VIN's into the back of the drivers side head.
Bill
you mean like this? ;D
Quote from: SChatman on March 01, 2021, 12:21:44 AM
Thanks everybody, I knew it was required for VINs to be stamped on the drive train at some point, I just wasn't sure where it was done. I was on a Facebook site where a few people were saying "numbers matching" had to do with correct date coded parts not vin numbers and I had always heard it was having the original drive train with VIN numbers stamped on them.
I really appreciate conversing on sites like this as Facebook is a breeding ground for the misinformed who will argue that they are right. If you correct you are a knowitall to some. BTW do you know they built Boss 302 coupes along with sportroofs in 69 and 70?Yep I heard it on Facebook so it must be true. SMH...
Funny in that I swear I had read years ago the Jan1,1968 on a govt site but could have been another? I have had engines and trans vin stamped from both Metuchin and Dearborn for the 68 year. not one unstamped 68 have I seen yet but my numbers are limited.