SAAC Forum

The Cars => 1967 Shelby GT350/500 => Topic started by: Richstang on April 04, 2021, 11:39:32 AM

Title: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 04, 2021, 11:39:32 AM
The Little Red documentary didn’t really answer a lot of the nitty gritty questions I had.
Some of the most notable details though discussion or video for me were; 
   -It was never painted in a Ferrari red, just the factory Ford Candyapple Red
   -The door panels show us an August ‘66 Ford build date
   -The first owner tells us he bought it with a single 4bbl, no A/C, no compressor, and no Paxton on it.


Questions about Little Red after watching the documentary. These are probably still unknown.

1) When did the black top get spray painted on?
We know the black roof top was spray painted on and it never had a vinyl top.
-Was it added when first completed as a Shelby in December 1966?
-Or was the black top sprayed painted on when it was first updated to the 67.5 Shelby design proposal?
-Or was it added later when SAI created their version of the ’68 design prior to the LLTC July 7th, 1967?

2) When did the wheels change to 10-spokes?
It would have been ordered and shipped to LAX with Magstars in December 1966, just like all the other early ‘67's.
The large letter Goodyear tires shown at the LLTC in July suggests a wheel swap

3) When was the ‘67 louvered hood added, as Craig Jackson mentioned?
This suggests it had a standard Shelby hood when first completed December 1966. No louvered hoods were known to exist at that time. The B&W photo, taken at LAX, shows it with a darker louvered hood. It is darker than the rest of the body including the Shelby fiberglass nose. This suggests to me, it was changed prior to July 1967 where it appeared to be a closer color match to the body paint.

4) When did the outboard grille and grille lights get added to the car?
The Production Order notes it was completed in December 1966.
We don’t see the arrival of the outboard grille and lights in production until May 1967.

5) Which came first, the single or the double Paxton Supercharger? (I assume single) When were each of the versions added / removed?
One photo found, shows a single Paxton installed, quite possibly taken in July ’67 at the LLTC.
It has been suggested the EXP lettering in the side stripes was added after the LLTC. Does that coincide with the dual Paxton’s installation? We know the EXP lettering was added during Shelby’s lease while at LAX. So, did these two details go hand and hand?

6) Where did the nickname ‘Big Red’ come from and when did that start getting used?
 The Cobra Crier, Vol 1, issue 3, June 1967, notes ‘Big Red’ on display along with a supercharged GT350 at the Custom Car Show at the Sports Arena (When?).
Rumor has it this was Goodell’s nickname and not necessarily accepted by SAI employees who preferred ‘Little Red’. Is this true or just hearsay?
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 04, 2021, 11:47:36 AM
more pictures of interest
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: JD on April 04, 2021, 12:00:03 PM
Noticed too:
the position of the grille emblem set - lower than "production run" location
upper and lower grille mesh miss-match (lower is inboard grille mesh upper outboard mesh)
Later images have the turn signal bezels/unit chromed

(what does "LLTC" stand for?)
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 04, 2021, 01:01:11 PM
Noticed too:
the position of the grille emblem set - lower than "production run" location
upper and lower grille mesh miss-match (lower is inboard grille mesh upper outboard mesh)
Later images have the turn signal bezels/unit chromed

(what does "LLTC" stand for?)

LLTC = Long Lead Technical Conference

All great points JD!

The upper/lower grille differences are clear in the EXP photo!!!
That is also visible in the front view color photo shown in the documentary.

I also agree on the front turn signal housing/bezels.
In the earlier photo with the darker hood, they appear body color not chrome!

Excellent point noting the lower than normal production location of the grille emblem.
That does sit very low by comparison.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Special Ed on April 04, 2021, 01:40:56 PM
Ford did have a black vinyl top paint as i have a gallon of it i found in an old ford dealership still in an autolite ford paint can a c6az #.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: whiteykr on April 04, 2021, 01:50:40 PM
I have a few more questions . How was it sent ,motor wise,from SanJose to SAI? I believe with factoryA/C and dual quads without any Paxton.
Didn’t the car have GT500 stripes on it 1st ? Before the EXP?
What happened to the original fenders and front end? I assume it was in 68 configuration since there were so many 68 parts on it when found. Taillight bezels,qt panel reflectors,steering wheel. Was it in a wreck?
Anyway, I think it is fantastic the car still exists and not crushed like I heard my whole life.And I think the show and Craig J. did a nice job. I could watch shows like this all day instead of the garbage that is on TV these days.
Brad
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 04, 2021, 01:57:01 PM
Ford did have a black vinyl top paint as i have a gallon of it i found in an old ford dealership still in an autolite ford paint can a c6az #.

Interesting note!
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 04, 2021, 02:19:49 PM
I have a few more questions . How was it sent ,motor wise,from SanJose to SAI? I believe with factoryA/C and dual quads without any Paxton.
Didn’t the car have GT500 stripes on it 1st ? Before the EXP?
What happened to the original fenders and front end? I assume it was in 68 configuration since there were so many 68 parts on it when found. Taillight bezels,qt panel reflectors,steering wheel. Was it in a wreck?
Anyway, I think it is fantastic the car still exists and not crushed like I heard my whole life.And I think the show and Craig J. did a nice job. I could watch shows like this all day instead of the garbage that is on TV these days.
Brad

Since it was ordered by SAI, I would expect it shipped to LAX as a typical knock down unit for the '67 models.
Having the dual quads and AC would be expected, so your belief is likely correct.

When the EXP addition to the stripes was added is a good question that I also have.
It appears, from the very limited, few photos found, 'GT500' was how it was first striped on the sides.

The documentary show a damaged front end in the vintage color photos (Wyoming location per license plate?).
The nose section around headlights appears broken off/missing, while the hood and valance are visible.
We know it was updated to a '68 Shelby appearance from both documentation, and the as found details shown.
That is likely how it was sold by The Ford dealer lot, so the damaged parts were likely removed in the as found photos missing the entire nose.
Rumor has it many parts were stolen off the car too.

Based off of a production Mustang, not a development mule car such as the' 67 V-738-2, it could legally be sold if the engineering added items were removed.

 
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 04, 2021, 05:47:24 PM
Ford did have a black vinyl top paint as i have a gallon of it i found in an old ford dealership still in an autolite ford paint can a c6az #.
If I remember correctly this was a roll on product that came in a kit with a textured roller, scuff pads, masking tape, etc. They sell pretty much the same kit today as pickup bed liner. Since the 80s there is a similar 3M product and gun that sprays a textured rubberized (paintable) coating for rock chip protection.

Little vs Big could be nothing more than marketing/magazine article usage. Nobody wanted their performance car known as little in an era when BIG was better. The shop guys would certainly use the little moniker since the coupes were always considered the little kid of the Mustang lineup.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 04, 2021, 10:48:11 PM
Ford did have a black vinyl top paint as i have a gallon of it i found in an old ford dealership still in an autolite ford paint can a c6az #.
If I remember correctly this was a roll on product that came in a kit with a textured roller, scuff pads, masking tape, etc. They sell pretty much the same kit today as pickup bed liner. Since the 80s there is a similar 3M product and gun that sprays a textured rubberized (paintable) coating for rock chip protection.

Little vs Big could be nothing more than marketing/magazine article usage. Nobody wanted their performance car known as little in an era when BIG was better. The shop guys would certainly use the little moniker since the coupes were always considered the little kid of the Mustang lineup.

The nickname change from Little to Big Red would not be related to a marketing/magazine use.
This '67 Shelby hardtop #00131 was an engineering car, not for PR use. It was not used in any road tests or magazines.

The Cobra Crier was in internal Shelby American employee newsletter.
It is the only time the name Big Red was ever written anywhere that is known.

With Little Red completed in December '66, the 'Little Red' name would have been discussed among the employees for many months throughout 1967.
IF, the nickname 'Big Red' was not used until, say June, and Shelby American closed production in late July, it must not have stuck with the car.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: roddster on April 09, 2021, 03:40:46 PM
   Well, what is really needed is a time-line of the changes made to Lil'Red.  The only way for that is to do a Shelby American check, day to day of what was assigned at S/A similar to what Brian Styles did for #0139.
  To answer a few question asked: These are answered in the 68' Californai Special registry written by Paul Hewitt.  Sometimes you can find the registry for sale on Ebay, or possibly at Tony Branda's.
1) The wheels  were changed "sometime after 1/16/1967", Magstars to Ten Spokes
2) The 68' console "presumed" after 7/67
3) Single Paxton "installed before it's appearance at the L.A. Autoshow on 1/3/1967"
4) Tail light frames updated 8/67
5) Shelby decklid letters: 7/67
6) Front grill and grill trim by 8/67
7) Gas cap lid updated by 8/67
  There is other items mentioned like rear disk brakes, seat material, the registry does state there is no direct evidence of twin Paxtons ever being installed.

 8) "Big Red" is/was a name attached to Ford's Experimental gas turbine semi rig which was recently dicovered.
  My questions would be:
 It had to have been built as a standard 67 GT 500 with no mods, so, when did the fun begin? Appearantly right away in DEcember of 1966 and January 3 1967
 When did the tail light panel get painted silver?
 Is there any evidence of the seat upholstery being modified to ?
 Is there any evidence to the carpeting being Multoon(?)
 No rollbar was ever installed in the car

  Other information can come from the 1997 SAAC registry, interview with Fred Goodell

  I'd give no blame to how Craig Jackson had the car restored.  It's based on a good photo made in August/September of 1967.  Craig is a car guy, I think he did good.

 Late additional info: Just so everyone knows, the louvers in the hood line up very well with the flat areas on each side of the metal underliner for the hood.  So, a louvered and metal underlined hood is a possibility.  Did they make one? I guess some day we'll find out.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: shelbymann1970 on April 10, 2021, 05:27:55 AM
I have a few more questions . How was it sent ,motor wise,from SanJose to SAI? I believe with factoryA/C and dual quads without any Paxton.
Didn’t the car have GT500 stripes on it 1st ? Before the EXP?
What happened to the original fenders and front end? I assume it was in 68 configuration since there were so many 68 parts on it when found. Taillight bezels,qt panel reflectors,steering wheel. Was it in a wreck?
Anyway, I think it is fantastic the car still exists and not crushed like I heard my whole life.And I think the show and Craig J. did a nice job. I could watch shows like this all day instead of the garbage that is on TV these days.
Brad
From what I saw up close with the bumper mounting extension bent to the front of the car I'd say it was in volved in a wreck and also some mangled  front end  parts were in the Trunk. check out the grill support and the "68" Shelby broken header sitting on the core support in the last pic. Can anyone identify the person in the Hawaiian shirt at the front of the car in the second pic?  ;D  Gary
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: alexgt350h on April 10, 2021, 09:14:58 AM
You mean the guy standing beside my wife and I?
He is a really Special person!
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 10, 2021, 10:17:57 AM
   Well, what is really needed is a time-line of the changes made to Lil'Red.  The only way for that is to do a Shelby American check, day to day of what was assigned at S/A similar to what Brian Styles did for #0139.
  To answer a few question asked: These are answered in the 68' Californai Special registry written by Paul Hewitt.  Sometimes you can find the registry for sale on Ebay, or possibly at Tony Branda's.
1) The wheels  were changed "sometime after 1/16/1967", Magstars to Ten Spokes
2) The 68' console "presumed" after 7/67
3) Single Paxton "installed before it's appearance at the L.A. Autoshow on 1/3/1967"
4) Tail light frames updated 8/67
5) Shelby decklid letters: 7/67
6) Front grill and grill trim by 8/67
7) Gas cap lid updated by 8/67
  There is other items mentioned like rear disk brakes, seat material, the registry does state there is no direct evidence of twin Paxtons ever being installed.

 8) "Big Red" is/was a name attached to Ford's Experimental gas turbine semi rig which was recently dicovered.
  My questions would be:
 It had to have been built as a standard 67 GT 500 with no mods, so, when did the fun begin? Appearantly right away in DEcember of 1966 and January 3 1967
 When did the tail light panel get painted silver?
 Is there any evidence of the seat upholstery being modified to ?
 Is there any evidence to the carpeting being Multoon(?)
 No rollbar was ever installed in the car

  Other information can come from the 1997 SAAC registry, interview with Fred Goodell

  I'd give no blame to how Craig Jackson had the car restored.  It's based on a good photo made in August/September of 1967.  Craig is a car guy, I think he did good.

 Late additional info: Just so everyone knows, the louvers in the hood line up very well with the flat areas on each side of the metal underliner for the hood.  So, a louvered and metal underlined hood is a possibility.  Did they make one? I guess some day we'll find out.

Roddster,

A timeline would be very helpful, IF we could get the NEW details to define it AND if we could substantiate them with facts versus the past editorials.
Finding Little Red in Texas is re-writing history. Some of those details were previously mentioned in this thread as uncovered in the documentary.


Both the last ’67 registry and Paul‘s book are over 10 years old now. While there’s a ton of good info some of it is now outdated and incorrect. You know NEW details have continuously been discovered since then, correcting many of the past written errors. For those casual readers, it was noted the cars were delivered with a 390 motor. The first three (3) GT500s are now documented as ordered and delivered with dual quad 428’s. Fred Goodell mentions #00131 was painted Ferrari red in that old interview. When Jason Billups polished down the paint, on camera, we all saw it was only Candyapple Red. Those interviews suggest a 4 speed manual was installed. The documentary shows us it never had a manual transmission.  It was also suggested to have a vinyl top. The ‘as found’ photos show us otherwise with that painted on black roof.  The LLTC ’68 model introduction at Riverside was said to be in August. Now, we all know it was July 7th 1967. Four holes were found in the floorboards on each side of the car behind the front seat. That suggests it had a roll bar at one time. Since none of the photos from July 1967 and onward show it installed, the assumption was it never had one. 
I could go on… It’s time to let go of those past antiquated written myths.


Many of the seven (7) items you listed just don’t match up with current known details;
None of them answer any questions specifically about Little Red;
1) Wheels changed to 10-spokes ‘SOMETIME’ after 1/16/67. We know when production cars first appear with them, but that doesn’t tell us when LR was updated.
2) I don’t recall anyone asking about the ‘68 console. Yes, we know it would have been added with the ’68 styling update for the LLTC in July.
3) The statement ‘Single Paxton installed before the January 3rd 1967 LA Auto Show is outdated. 
The LA auto show was October 27, thru November 6, 1966 before LR was even built.
What proof of any event near at that time exists, other than editorial written in an 11 year old book?
Maybe it was at a different event, thus why we need to see the evidence!
4) I don’t recall anyone asking about the taillight frames. I assume you’re referring to the 6 screws visible in the frames shown at the LLTC. We know that was a later issued TSB notice to owners.
5) ‘SHELBY” decklid letters. It would be nice if we knew when exactly these were added, if known. Was that speculation as done for the LLTC event in July?
6) Earlier in this thread it was mentioned production use of the outboard grille / lights started in May 1967. You stated August, which is far too late.
7) I don’t recall anyone asking about the gas cap. Where’s the question there?


The ‘BIG RED’ as mentioned in the 1967 Shelby American ‘Cobra Crier was clearly not referring to the FORD concept turbine Big Rig from 4 years earlier. While the Ford truck concept was recently brought back into the spotlight once again, it has been known about for decades. I have photos of it in development back in April 1963. The June 1967 issued ‘Cobra Crier’ was referring to ‘Little Red’ as aka “Big Red’ which was SAI’s creation in LA and the only known Big Block Shelby Mustang with an added Paxton.
IT WAS NOT Ford’s concept / creation built in Detroit. SAI would not be showing a dated four (4) year old concept truck at a local LA event/car show.


Craig Jackson chose the restoration point in time when #00131 (LR) had EXP in the side stripes. We saw that newly publicized exterior photo presented in the documentary.
Hopefully some evidence will be shared proving it had the dual Paxton’s at that same point in time as the EXP lettering was added and when either was installed.


Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 67411F--0100-ENG. on April 10, 2021, 02:07:35 PM
Hello Rich,

Those are all great questions that it would be nice to have answered.  I would also like to know when did Ford and/or Shelby "officially" kill the production of any coupes and convertibles?  One would assume that it was after this decision was made that 0131 became a test bed for the Paxton(s) and strengthened drivetrain. 

As you stated, hopefully some evidence will be shared proving it had the dual Paxtons at that same point in time as the EXP lettering was added and when either was installed.  Based on the car having GT500 side stripes in the Riverside photos, it would seem quite possible that the EXP500 side stripes were not added until after the car was shipped to Ionia.


Thanks,
Eric
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Tired Sheep on April 10, 2021, 02:42:05 PM
Ehat evidence do you have the coupe went to Ao Smith?
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 67411F--0100-ENG. on April 10, 2021, 06:04:00 PM
What evidence do you have the coupe went to AO Smith?

After Shelby American, Inc. closed up in late July/early August of 1967, the first three GT500s (0100, 0131, and 0139) were all eventually shipped to Shelby Automotive and continued to be assigned to the Engineering Department.  The cars' serial numbers appear on multiple Shelby Automotive inventory documents.  Per Walter Nelson, while there 0100 and 0131 were both both updated with '68 fiberglass.  0100 even received 1969 Cougar XR7 leather front seats.  Both of these cars were part of a package sale of six engineering cars that went to Courtesy Ford in Littleton, Colorado in the spring of 1969 to be sold as used cars.  You have seen photos of 0131 with '68 fiberglass in the documentary.  I have attached a photo of 0100 that was taken in 1977 which shows the '68 fiberglass.  The other attached photo shows the interior of 0100 in early 1980, note the '69 Cougar XR7 leather front seats.

Thanks,
Eric 
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Tired Sheep on April 10, 2021, 06:40:49 PM
(http://www.thecoralsnake.com/LR2.jpg)

Doesnt look like it according to this.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 67411F--0100-ENG. on April 10, 2021, 07:26:51 PM
(http://www.thecoralsnake.com/LR2.jpg)

Doesnt look like it according to this.

Here is a copy of the what I believe is the last or very close to the last Shelby Automotive Engineering Department inventory list that 0100 and 0131 appear on prior to being sold to Courtesy Ford.  Note the date: January 24, 1969.  Also note that on my copy 0131's Ford VIN has been blanked out.  Jason Billup's has a copy that shows the Ford VIN and it appears in the documentary.  0131 is the first car listed and 0100 is the third car listed.

Eric
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Tired Sheep on April 10, 2021, 07:39:56 PM
So every car on the inventory sheet was in Ionia?

Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 67411F--0100-ENG. on April 10, 2021, 07:50:32 PM
So every car on the inventory sheet was in Ionia?

Yes.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 67st102 on April 10, 2021, 07:56:45 PM
When Shelby operations moved to Michigan in August, 1967 – they set up an engineering garage in Ionia, Michigan that had been a former car dealership.  This smaller sized building was located a block to the East of AO Smith.  There were maybe 15 employees that worked out of this facility including Chief engineer Fred Goodell, and painter Sonny Fee.  There was also a Shelby office located in the Southfield / Livonia area just outside of Detroit.  This was only an office and did not have any provisions for working on cars.

While in Ionia, the Shelby engineering garage was not fenced off or secure so if the cars were not being worked on inside the engineering facility, the other vehicles were either in the prototyping department at AO Smith or in the AO Smith lot, which was fenced off and guarded.   

There is a Shelby Engineering Cars Inventory document that exists dated January 24, 1969.  On this 2 page document are 14 vehicles with a simple inventory number assigned to it.  Little Red was inventory number 67st103.  The 1967 Shelby GT500 prototype was inventory number 67st102.  1967 GT 500 #100 is listed on the document as 67st109 and the gold 1968 GT500 number 101 conelec vehicle was assigned inventory number 68st203.   Three of the vehicles mentioned above ended up getting sold through the dealer in Littleton, Colorado – so that helps explain how that could have occurred.

In those hand written notes questioned – that obviously did not happen and  am thinking at that time Ford did not care what Carroll “wanted” to occur.  The car he was probably envisioning was what ended up to be the Green Hornet – which was Inventory number 68st133 – painted by Sonny Fee and made in Ionia, not California. 

As a side note to Eric’s comments - 67st102 – the 1967 Shelby GT500 prototype was also shipped to Ionia from California and sat in the Ionia engineering garage and was a 1968 fiberglass and fit test car for the duration of the 1968 year – so another 1967 car that received 1968 fiberglass.  This was explained to me by Fred Goodell Jr about 20 years ago. (I still have the email)  The car still wore that 1968 fiberglass while serving as a shop class car in an Ionia prison for over thirty years.  67st102 is not listed on this inventory document because it was donated to the prison on December 31, 1968.  The car still has the dried label maker adhesive of 67st102 on its windshield today.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: propayne on April 10, 2021, 08:32:10 PM
Wonderful info -

- Phillip
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: whiteykr on April 10, 2021, 10:09:48 PM
Thanks to all of you.Gary,thanks for the photo of the front of the car. I find this a fascinating and interesting topic.
Brad
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: BGlover67 on April 10, 2021, 10:20:29 PM
I really expected the documentary to be better.  Did I miss them mentioning the connection of the first GT500 fastback (100), first GT 500 Convertible (139) and first GT500 notchback (Lil Red).  I think that's where the story gets interesting. 
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 11, 2021, 01:13:54 AM
Thanks to everyone for continuing the discussion on LR after Shelby American closed in August 1967. These are some excellent details. After decades of the stories of a ‘CRUSHED” ‘Little Red’, we really do have to question everything written in the past. Asking for proof to substantiate those points is the best approach to dismissing fact from fiction.

I don’t recall seeing any documents specifically stating when LR #00131 was sent to Ionia (or AO Smith).

That hand written letter, likely from late July, listing Jobs to be completed in California, does notes it should remain in CA (after the Shelby American LAX location closure). There is no indication it would be shipped to Michigan at that time. Perhaps that was only the SAI plan. Ford may have had other requirements since they took over the Company a month prior. http://www.1967shelbyconvertible.com/documentation/original-documents/ionia-move-jobs-yet-to-be-completed-in-california.asp
This next link below, again to the handwritten letter, is the only place I recall seeing #00131 referred to as “GT EXP”…not exactly official and not exactly the same as the side stripes lettering ‘EXP 500”. http://www.1967shelbyconvertible.com/documentation/original-documents/ionia-move-vehicles-remaining-in-california.asp

That January 24, 1969 Shelby Automotive list of Engineering Vehicles posted above certainly does indicate LR was already in Michigan. When it was sent is a great question! As mentioned, we see the paperwork in the documentary that Craig Jackson talks about. It refers to #00131 as a ‘GTS-500/65’. This confirms it’s the hardtop by the 65 code. The engine is referred to as a S428-4V, No AC, Auto, & Steel Wheels. That supports the first owners’ recollection of #00131 in the documentary. Since the 428 was not certified by the EPA to sell with a Paxton, that had to be removed legally to dispose/sell it. The “EXTRAS” noted are only a ’69 sequence flasher.

I also wish both documentaries shared more detailed information on the cars with less promotion on Barrett-Jackson. They briefly mention the other two cars of the first production GT500s trio. Both documentaries were likely made for the entertainment of the masses of auto enthusiasts, not necessarily our Shelby community who strive for more detailed info. It might be disappointing to us, yes, but it was still entertaining and good for the Shelby community as a whole.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Side-Oilers on April 11, 2021, 04:14:59 PM
Rich, great info as always.  But, just as a point of discussion...

"Since the 428 was not certified by the EPA to sell with a Paxton, that had to be removed legally to dispose/sell it."


The EPA wasn't created until Dec 1970.

I would think that the decision on removing the blower probably had more to do with product liability than with smog.

Other thoughts?
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 11, 2021, 05:29:58 PM
Rich, great info as always.  But, just as a point of discussion...

"Since the 428 was not certified by the EPA to sell with a Paxton, that had to be removed legally to dispose/sell it."


The EPA wasn't created until Dec 1970.

I would think that the decision on removing the blower probably had more to do with product liability than with smog.

Other thoughts?

Thanks Van!!!
Excellent point on the EPA. That handwritten letter only mentions Federal Certification on a few cars, likely for the '68 model year. (Thanks for the info on the EPA not yet in the conversation until late 1970.) To your point, neither might have mattered since it would have been sold as a used car.

Yes, absolutely, a product liability concern would warrant the removal of the supercharger. another great point!
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: roddster on April 11, 2021, 08:23:19 PM
  Although true that the EPA was started in 1970 (ah, President Nixon, got that libbies?) there was Federal Emission Requirements, EI - the PVC system required in California based sales in 1966, then all 50 states in 1968.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 1968 on April 20, 2021, 03:08:01 PM
Does anyone know why it has air conditioning registers in the dash?  It looks like there is no a/c compressor or other a/c parts under the hood.  I presume that the a/c setup would not work/fit with the dual Paxton superchargers?
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 67411F--0100-ENG. on April 20, 2021, 04:20:48 PM
Does anyone know why it has air conditioning registers in the dash?  It looks like there is no a/c compressor or other a/c parts under the hood.  I presume that the a/c setup would not work/fit with the dual Paxton superchargers?

0131 like its sister cars, 0100 and 0139, was originally ordered and built with A/C.  The under hood A/C parts on 0131 were all removed in order to make room for the dual Paxton superchargers.

Thanks,
Eric
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 1968 on April 20, 2021, 04:39:20 PM
Does anyone know why it has air conditioning registers in the dash?  It looks like there is no a/c compressor or other a/c parts under the hood.  I presume that the a/c setup would not work/fit with the dual Paxton superchargers?

0131 like its sister cars, 0100 and 0139, were all originally ordered and built with A/C.  The under hood A/C parts on 0131 were all removed in order to make room for the dual Paxton superchargers.

Thanks,
Eric

Thanks.  That makes sense.  But as I thought about it more, I seem to recall seeing a photo of a GT 500 with dual Paxton superchargers and A/C.  It might have been a '68 GT 500.  Maybe it was on the old forum?  But I recall that somebody figured out a way to do it.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Richstang on April 20, 2021, 07:09:30 PM
I don't recall ever seeing A/C with a Paxton, never mind two Paxton's.
I'd suspect it to be nearly impossible to fit with both AC and the power steering on the left.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 1968 on April 20, 2021, 08:22:21 PM
I don't recall ever seeing A/C with a Paxton, never mind two Paxton's.
I'd suspect it to be nearly impossible to fit with both AC and the power steering on the left.

Here is a link to a '68 GT 350 with one Paxton and A/C:

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-1001-1968-shelby-gt350
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 1968 on May 10, 2021, 05:25:45 PM
I don't recall ever seeing A/C with a Paxton, never mind two Paxton's.
I'd suspect it to be nearly impossible to fit with both AC and the power steering on the left.

Here is a link to a '68 GT 350 with one Paxton and A/C:

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-1001-1968-shelby-gt350

The photo of the engine compartment was not showing up with that link, but I found a saved copy from years ago (I think it was from the same article).  The A/C compressor is relocated to the passenger side, and it is a high RPM Sanden unit, which would be more compatible with supercharger use.

Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 1968 on May 10, 2021, 05:40:06 PM
I don't recall ever seeing A/C with a Paxton, never mind two Paxton's.
I'd suspect it to be nearly impossible to fit with both AC and the power steering on the left.

Here is a link to a '68 GT 350 with one Paxton and A/C:

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-1001-1968-shelby-gt350

The photo of the engine compartment was not showing up with that link, but I found a saved copy from years ago (I think it was from the same article).  The A/C compressor is relocated to the passenger side, and it is a high RPM Sanden unit, which would be more compatible with supercharger use.
I have not seen any '67's, but here is another 1968 GT350 with a single Paxton and A/C.  It should be the same for a '67.  I have not seen any photos with dual Paxtons and A/C.  That would be difficult, to say the least...
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 10, 2021, 06:55:35 PM
I don't recall ever seeing A/C with a Paxton, never mind two Paxton's.
I'd suspect it to be nearly impossible to fit with both AC and the power steering on the left.

Here is a link to a '68 GT 350 with one Paxton and A/C:

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-1001-1968-shelby-gt350

The photo of the engine compartment was not showing up with that link, but I found a saved copy from years ago (I think it was from the same article).  The A/C compressor is relocated to the passenger side, and it is a high RPM Sanden unit, which would be more compatible with supercharger use.
I have not seen any '67's, but here is another 1968 GT350 with a single Paxton and A/C.  It should be the same for a '67.  I have not seen any photos with dual Paxtons and A/C.  That would be difficult, to say the least...
That picture shows a modern conversion . No A/C paxton cars were done back in the day regardless of if 67,68 or even 69/70 . Those types of conversions did not start showing up until the advent of the more modern compressor alternatives in the 1980's
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 1968 on May 10, 2021, 08:34:45 PM
I don't recall ever seeing A/C with a Paxton, never mind two Paxton's.
I'd suspect it to be nearly impossible to fit with both AC and the power steering on the left.

Here is a link to a '68 GT 350 with one Paxton and A/C:

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-1001-1968-shelby-gt350

The photo of the engine compartment was not showing up with that link, but I found a saved copy from years ago (I think it was from the same article).  The A/C compressor is relocated to the passenger side, and it is a high RPM Sanden unit, which would be more compatible with supercharger use.
I have not seen any '67's, but here is another 1968 GT350 with a single Paxton and A/C.  It should be the same for a '67.  I have not seen any photos with dual Paxtons and A/C.  That would be difficult, to say the least...
That picture shows a modern conversion . No A/C paxton cars were done back in the day regardless of if 67,68 or even 69/70 . Those types of conversions did not start showing up until the advent of the more modern compressor alternatives in the 1980's

Of course.  Both the Paxton and the A/C compressor and its relocation are mods.  But the question that I was responding to was whether it could be done, and those photos are proof that it has been done on a GT350.  I think that it is also theoretically possible on a '67 or '68 GT500, but you would need to fabricate a bracket or two, be very creative with the A/C hose routing, and use a small Sanden A/C compressor.  You might need to relocate the battery and the windshield washer reservoir (on late '67 and '68 cars) too.  It seems that maintaining the functioning A/C on Little Red was not considered, probably because the A/C compressor alternatives were not as extensive in 1967, as you pointed out.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: roddster on May 11, 2021, 10:31:08 AM
A couple of years back, at a MCAC N show there was a 68 GT500 with A/C  and a Paxton .  I think Tim Lea had something to do with the restoration. Or possibly the Coralsnake.   
  In short, custom blower mounting on the right side,, trunk mounted battery.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 1968 on May 11, 2021, 12:54:31 PM
A couple of years back, at a MCAC N show there was a 68 GT500 with A/C  and a Paxton .  I think Tim Lea had something to do with the restoration. Or possibly the Coralsnake.   
  In short, custom blower mounting on the right side,, trunk mounted battery.

Thanks.  That must be the one I remember seeing.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: roddster on May 12, 2021, 10:36:41 AM
Another thing: Adding a charger does not change the Rpm limit. It helps getting to the limit faster.
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: honker on May 12, 2021, 01:05:15 PM
There is this '68 with air and charger, this car is probably known here ? not too many photos with the article.

He does say he only knows of one other '68 with air & Charger ?

Getting away from '67s here though  ;)

Mike

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-1001-1968-shelby-gt350

Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: 1968 on May 12, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
There is this '68 with air and charger, this car is probably known here ? not too many photos with the article.

He does say he only knows of one other '68 with air & Charger ?

Getting away from '67s here though  ;)

Mike

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featured-vehicles/mump-1001-1968-shelby-gt350

I am pretty sure that is the car in the photo in Reply #34 of this thread.  I think that I downloaded the photo back when it was still included with the article.  Some of the photos, including that one of the engine bay, seem to have been removed from that web page.  I think that there would be no difference for 1967 or 1968.  And Little Red ended up being a little bit of each.  While it seems that those other cars with a Paxton and A/C are all GT350's, the same setup would work on a GT500 with a single 4V intake and a single Paxton, but probably would fit better with a Sanden A/C compressor if the Paxton is mounted on the driver's side.  The Sanden unit upgrade appears to be what was used in those GT350's in the photos.

See Reply #265 in the other Little Red thread regarding why a cross-ram intake would be best for dual Paxtons, but that would require modifying/cutting the hood as the cross-ram intakes sit too high for the stock hoods.  I think it was the Edelbrock cross-ram intake that was used on the two 427 Cobras with the dual Paxtons, and they had the hoods cut with a scoop added.  It seems that the Edelbrock cross-ram separates the intake for the two carbs so that each one is dedicated to the 4 cylinders on that side.  Otherwise, a single 4V intake with a single Paxton would seem like the better setup for the GT500, just like the GT350, but with reduced boost due to the larger displacement of the big block.  That is what they ended up doing with Little Red back in the day, as shown in the vintage photo below.

-JW
Title: Re: Little Red - Documentary
Post by: honker on May 12, 2021, 02:34:04 PM
JW, thanks for the heads up, I missed that you had already posted that link, and the deleted photo  ::)

Mike