SAAC Forum

The Cars => 1966 Shelby GT350/GT350H => Topic started by: silverton_ford on May 15, 2021, 08:51:45 PM

Title: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: silverton_ford on May 15, 2021, 08:51:45 PM
Did anyone else notice a huge spike in the value on the 1966 GT350 on Hagerty's value guide?

Hopefully you can see this page, but you may have to log in if you have an account.  I don't know.  Here is a link to the entire value guide for the 66 GT350 - - https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/values/52493?yearRange=15 (https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/values/52493?yearRange=15)

Notice the value differences from January 2021 to May 2021 in the snapshot from the site below.  Top column is # 1 condition down to # 4 condition.   This is base model GT350, not the Hertz, Carryover or Convertible.  Hertz and Convertible have their own separate analysis.  For a Carryover they say to add 35% to these figures, these figures do not include Carryover cars.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/44-150521204151.jpeg)

I realize there is the argument that an insurance value guide may be higher than others to help increase insurance rates.  I don't know if that is true or not and not really my point here.   I am more impressed by the level these figures jumped.  Simply amazing!

Does Heacock, Grundy or any of the other big name collector car insurance companies have a similar value guide?  How do they compare?

What are other's opinions?
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: trotrof1 on May 15, 2021, 10:24:05 PM
These escalating valuations may be partially the reason fewer old school cars are attending cars shows and are being supplanted by newer cars. Look on Ebay and see how much they bid up a rusty, gutted, 60s muscle car these days.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: Shelby_r_b on May 16, 2021, 12:05:34 AM
It's interesting that you posted this, Brian.  I recently looked out of curiosity, and was amazed at the numbers / increase on 66 Shelbys (again, non-Hertz, Carryovers, etc.).

It does seem that 66s have gone up quite a bit in value, and the same could be said for 65s and 67s - I haven't looked at 68s and beyond.

Incredible!
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: shelbydoug on May 16, 2021, 06:51:08 AM
I had a claim with State Farm on a non-Shelby car but with one that Hagerty valued at $9,200 in it's then present condition.

State Farm said it was only worth $1,100.


In the debate State Farm produced an "evaluation" from an independent underwriter that showed the number but yet could produce no evidence such as current auction results.

They refused to accept other evaluations such as Hagerty's as hearsay.


So this really is relevant in that the only place that will accept your $350,000 valuation is Hagerty. If for sake of discussion, you had a claim against a State Farm insured, expect an extended argument.

They will produce "evidence" with no documentation showing a much lower valuation and refuse to accept "auction results" as unsubstantiated so you'll be back to negotiating a number.


Lots of things are reducing the useage of "vintage vehicles" including this one but also the traffic generally is heavier, the owners are older and no one wants to advertise what they have.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: CSX 4133 on May 16, 2021, 08:51:59 AM

Funny this subject has come up, I received a call from Hagerty wanting me to revisit my valuations on the Shelby's just this last week.

Make sure you are asking the right questions regarding your particular policy.

https://www.lelandwest.com/stated-value-vs-agreed-value-classic-car-insurance.cfm
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: Tired Sheep on May 16, 2021, 09:58:44 AM
Maybe we could post some of those $300,000 plus  1966s?

I would like to see them
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 68stangcjfb on May 16, 2021, 10:46:30 AM
On the Hagerty site, it looks like almost all the 1962 to 1970 Shelby's and Cobras went up over the last few months. Interesting that a 1965 Daytona Coupe is now worth $30,600.000 in #1 condition according to them and $19,600.000 in #4 condition!
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: SFM6S087 on May 16, 2021, 11:52:39 AM
The Hagerty valuation seems on the high side to me. Does anyone know of any cars actually selling in those ranges?

Steve
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 67 GT350 on May 16, 2021, 12:04:14 PM
The Hagerty valuation seems on the high side to me. Does anyone know of any cars actually selling in those ranges?

Steve

Nope.
But any year Shelby is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In the auction world, it is only worth what one person wants to pay over the 2nd place person wants to pay.
If cars are valuable as said, then why pay extra to put a reserve on your car? Start it out at a buck and according to Hagerty, it will make you happy at the auctions ending, OR not?
Funny fact, I have a friend who went to insure his 65 GT350, Hagerty was not only high on values, but they wanted way more to insure his car over what he got at American Classic Ins.....Connection? You be the common sense judge.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 16, 2021, 12:39:18 PM
The Hagerty valuation seems on the high side to me. Does anyone know of any cars actually selling in those ranges?

Steve

Nope.
But any year Shelby is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In the auction world, it is only worth what one person wants to pay over the 2nd place person wants to pay.
If cars are valuable as said, then why pay extra to put a reserve on your car? Start it out at a buck and according to Hagerty, it will make you happy at the auctions ending, OR not?
Funny fact, I have a friend who went to insure his 65 GT350, Hagerty was not only high on values, but they wanted way more to insure his car over what he got at American Classic Ins.....Connection? You be the common sense judge.
FYI In the auction world the house can and do many times bid up a car to the reserve. So you may not be bidding against another 2nd place person buyer but the house instead. It is not supposed to happen in no reserve auctions however I am sure it does from time to time. In those scenarios it is worth what the one buyer is willing to pay for it.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 67 GT350 on May 16, 2021, 01:47:23 PM
The Hagerty valuation seems on the high side to me. Does anyone know of any cars actually selling in those ranges?

Steve

Nope.
But any year Shelby is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In the auction world, it is only worth what one person wants to pay over the 2nd place person wants to pay.
If cars are valuable as said, then why pay extra to put a reserve on your car? Start it out at a buck and according to Hagerty, it will make you happy at the auctions ending, OR not?
Funny fact, I have a friend who went to insure his 65 GT350, Hagerty was not only high on values, but they wanted way more to insure his car over what he got at American Classic Ins.....Connection? You be the common sense judge.
FYI In the auction world the house can and do many times bid up a car to the reserve. So you may not be bidding against another 2nd place person buyer but the house instead. It is not supposed to happen in no reserve auctions however I am sure it does from time to time. In those scenarios it is worth what the one buyer is willing to pay for it.

Funny you said that about auctions, I was bidding on my old 67 GT350 a few years back and it did seem like they were pulling up bids from the air. I knew this because there was 2 of us bidding, and when I pulled out it kept going up, and the auctioneer was pointing off in space..I guess they have to bid up to the reserve, or else there would be many cars going back home and where would these auction houses get their money? Is that a case where normal people (like me) just don't know? Can't do that on ebay unless you have a "friend"
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: Bob Gaines on May 16, 2021, 02:10:30 PM
I was at BJ (no reserve auction) one year and watched first hand when Reggie Jackson didn't need a friend to bid up his car because he did it himself in front of cameras etc. I watched it again later on TV as the infraction was recorded for posterity.  I never heard if he got scolded for that or not. I doubt it . Anyone else would have gotten kicked out.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: MustangMann on May 16, 2021, 03:16:13 PM
As we all know, the auctions can provide us with some guidance as to a vehicles value, but sometimes, things are not as they seem.  I was involved in the private sale of a concourse Carryover '66 GT350 that sold for over $300k in 2018.  Unfortunately, these private sales often go unnoticed to the big companies that evaluate the market.  On the other hand....maybe that is a good thing!

Ken
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: sfm5 on May 16, 2021, 04:43:09 PM
Not certain what timeframe goes into updating Hagerty valuations, but when I think of the '66's that have sold over the past year they did go for noticeably higher than in the past. The ones that come up on BaT seem to routinely sell for over $200K. I also notice an absence of 67 gt350s at auctions lately - where did they go?
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: jguyer on May 16, 2021, 05:14:48 PM
I had a claim with State Farm on a non-Shelby car but with one that Hagerty valued at $9,200 in it's then present condition.

State Farm said it was only worth $1,100.


In the debate State Farm produced an "evaluation" from an independent underwriter that showed the number but yet could produce no evidence such as current auction results.

They refused to accept other evaluations such as Hagerty's as hearsay.


So this really is relevant in that the only place that will accept your $350,000 valuation is Hagerty. If for sake of discussion, you had a claim against a State Farm insured, expect an extended argument.

They will produce "evidence" with no documentation showing a much lower valuation and refuse to accept "auction results" as unsubstantiated so you'll be back to negotiating a number.


Lots of things are reducing the useage of "vintage vehicles" including this one but also the traffic generally is heavier, the owners are older and no one wants to advertise what they have.
I will just say, State Farm was a poor choice 52 years ago, when my mother had it. Obviously, they have not improved.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: pmustang on May 16, 2021, 06:05:14 PM
Of course they shot up. sold mine a. few months ago :-)
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: NC TRACKRAT on May 16, 2021, 06:59:45 PM
It's important to keep in mind that the insurance companies won't put up too much of a fight when you want to increase the insurance value (hence, a higher premium to pay), while they may well protest when you file a claim.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: red66 on May 16, 2021, 09:58:16 PM

Three years ago, I conducted a survey of actual auction results for 1966 GT350s for the previous five years.  After discarding the extremely low figures for rust buckets or cars with incorrect equipment as well as those selling on the extreme high end (1966 GT350 convertible, celebrity cars, charity fund raisers, etc.), I found that Hagerty's of $175,000 and up for correct condition 1 and 2 cars was more accurate than most other sources.  Also, a friend purchased a 4-speed numbers matching condition car for $175,000 the year before.

If you have one of these cars and purchase and agreed value policy from Hagerty, that is the price they will pay in the event of loss with no deductible.

Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: SFM6S087 on May 17, 2021, 10:22:18 AM
By definition, an "agreed value" policy will pay the exact amount that was agreed upon in the case of a total loss. Not something less.

Steve
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: silverton_ford on May 17, 2021, 12:43:01 PM
Here is an explanation by Hagerty on how they see the market.

https://insider.hagerty.com/trends/hagerty-price-guide-45/ (https://insider.hagerty.com/trends/hagerty-price-guide-45/)
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 67 GT350 on May 19, 2021, 06:28:33 PM
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-ford-mustang-254/

I am not sure why people do not put their car on this forum first, when they would like to sell their car? If you can get the same price here and not pay fees, you would be doing both the buyer and seller a favor. At least try here first and if it does not sell then do auction houses. Why not sell it here? Or do you actually think you will get more at an auction....? Remember fees....Or do you just want too much and are afraid you will let it go to cheap? Remember, you can come down.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: Rickmustang on May 19, 2021, 06:59:41 PM
On BAT, does only the buyer pay the fees?
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 67 GT350 on May 19, 2021, 08:23:58 PM
On BAT, does only the buyer pay the fees?

The buyer pays a fee, I am not sure but they don't make much if the seller pays nothing then.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: Shelby_r_b on May 19, 2021, 08:27:52 PM
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-ford-mustang-254/

I am not sure why people do not put their car on this forum first, when they would like to sell their car? If you can get the same price here and not pay fees, you would be doing both the buyer and seller a favor. At least try here first and if it does not sell then do auction houses. Why not sell it here? Or do you actually think you will get more at an auction....? Remember fees....Or do you just want too much and are afraid you will let it go to cheap? Remember, you can come down.

Typically, people put their cars through online or in person auctions, because they believe they will get more return, even after paying seller fees. Even some of the faithful from this site have moved to the auction route. In the end, it’s all about marketing / visibility; which generally leads to a higher sales price.

Just my 2 cents
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 67 GT350 on May 19, 2021, 08:54:44 PM
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-ford-mustang-254/

I am not sure why people do not put their car on this forum first, when they would like to sell their car? If you can get the same price here and not pay fees, you would be doing both the buyer and seller a favor. At least try here first and if it does not sell then do auction houses. Why not sell it here? Or do you actually think you will get more at an auction....? Remember fees....Or do you just want too much and are afraid you will let it go to cheap? Remember, you can come down.

Typically, people put their cars through online or in person auctions, because they believe they will get more return, even after paying seller fees. Even some of the faithful from this site have moved to the auction route. In the end, it’s all about marketing / visibility; which generally leads to a higher sales price.

Just my 2 cents

I think you are right in some cases....

Concourse, rare, or famous car will get the hype and promotion from the popular auction types. And possibly bring in the big money.
Average cars, and drivers usually bring in less. An "original" car or a big story car might bring in more.

I would say if you want to see
long term" for sale cars look to ebay, after all its free to relist, those cars really are not for sale so to speak. Usually big reserve or huge Buy It Now with a hefty reserve.

A lot of ways, it reminds me of real estate, some people have never done a thing to their house, (remodel), and think it is worth the same as the house next door. I wish I had a dollar every time someone said to me, "One just like this one went for $$$ on Ebay." "I think mine is worth that."
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: JD on May 19, 2021, 10:01:39 PM
BaT (seller) Listing Fees and Options

https://bringatrailer.com/submit-a-vehicle/

Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 67 GT350 on May 20, 2021, 10:20:56 AM
BaT (seller) Listing Fees and Options

https://bringatrailer.com/submit-a-vehicle/

Cheap for the seller, but for the buyer 5%...ouch! 5000.00 cap.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: CharlesTurner on May 20, 2021, 10:42:26 AM
Cheap for the seller, but for the buyer 5%...ouch! 5000.00 cap.

On a $200k car, selling at a big auction would typically be 10% of hammer, so $20k.  $5k for the same car on BaT is a good deal... but that's assuming one can get the same $200k that it might sell for auction. 

Results can go the opposite, so it's not a given that cars will bring less on BaT.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 67 GT350 on May 20, 2021, 11:22:57 AM
Cheap for the seller, but for the buyer 5%...ouch! 5000.00 cap.

On a $200k car, selling at a big auction would typically be 10% of hammer, so $20k.  $5k for the same car on BaT is a good deal... but that's assuming one can get the same $200k that it might sell for auction. 

Results can go the opposite, so it's not a given that cars will bring less on BaT.
I guess I should change the post, from why would you not SELL here, to why would you buy elsewhere, when you can just buy here and not pay crazy fees?
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 6s2055 on May 20, 2021, 02:43:34 PM
I would question why anyone with any classic car would choose any company like State Farm etc. when companies like Grundy, Haggerty can provide the coverage needed at more than a competitive price. Doing otherwise is a big risk....IMO.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 5s386 on May 21, 2021, 07:47:21 PM
What is the value of a rebody 65 or 66 Shelby currently? I've seen a 65 Shelby sell at auction for over $340K and it was restored as a rebody twice. Also saw a 66 Shelby rebody sell for $150K on Ebay.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 67 GT350 on May 21, 2021, 09:58:46 PM
What is the value of a rebody 65 or 66 Shelby currently? I've seen a 65 Shelby sell at auction for over $340K and it was restored as a rebody twice. Also saw a 66 Shelby rebody sell for $150K on Ebay.

PLEASE let us know on here, I would hate to get one of them.
Is there a complete list of re-body cars, other than the maybe the registry's that we do not have yet.
I also would bet that there are many more that nobody knows about.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: J_Speegle on May 21, 2021, 11:35:25 PM
Where would you stop with a list?  Just rebodied or the currently more popular with unibody reconstruction or even clipped cars?

One other challenge with a list would be that new people to the cars or those passing through might assume that if the car is not on the/a list then is must be OK. And we know where those stories lead to ------- someone becoming "that guy"
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: camp upshur on May 22, 2021, 02:16:56 AM

not only where do you stop w such a list, but where do you start?
another gossip column like 'the registry'? without editing, fact checking, or attribution - look at the damage done to cars (such as SFM5S038, thankfully not mine) without a scintilla of verified fact? because some passerby spit put a speculative cheap shot? thence codified in 'the registry'?
conversely, since our hobby relies on unverified submissions as fact what's to prevent the publishing of pap such as the gaudy narratives we see the auction houses churn out?

a buyer simply must educate themselves on what they are looking at.
regarding suspicion of a 'rebody' which would presumably have all of the authentic SAI pieces from the donor/original: it would come down to an analysis of the unibody. when was the original donor created? when was it delivered? from that one could deduce the Dearborn/Nashville date code stamping range of the panels/glass. that should be enough one started....from there it gets to be fun. especially if you're thinking of dropping a couple hundred (large).

Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: GT350DAVE on May 22, 2021, 09:10:05 AM
That's why you contact a Registrar. Not everything is in print. We Registrars also believe strongly in inspections.
Dave
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 67 GT350 on May 22, 2021, 12:05:29 PM
Yes to all, you are right, bad idea and bad suggestion.....and asking the registrar probably is the best idea.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: SFM6S087 on May 22, 2021, 05:37:59 PM
With all due respect, keep in mind that the Registrars are human, and therefore occasionally make mistakes. Sometimes it’s as simple as accidentally mixing up the data between two different cars. Sometimes it’s taking the word of a single person because that person has proven reliable in the past. Sometimes there are judgment calls to be made when conflicting information is received. The possibilities for errors to creep into the records are limitless. And, yes, I’ve seen real life examples of several of those. All of them corrected when brought to light, I’m happy to say.

In spite of all that, the Registrars do an amazing job and have my undying gratitude for their hard work. Just don’t expect perfection from humans.

My point is that if it’s critical that some bit of information is correct then check with as many sources as possible. Just because something is in the Registry does not make it unquestionably 100% accurate. It’s a great starting point, but getting confirmation from other sources is always a good idea.

Steve
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 427hunter on May 22, 2021, 05:55:33 PM
It appears almost every thread has to get off topic and negative. Great work ! 
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: GT350DAVE on May 23, 2021, 01:56:14 PM

not only where do you stop w such a list, but where do you start?
another gossip column like 'the registry'? without editing, fact checking, or attribution - look at the damage done to cars (such as SFM5S038, thankfully not mine) without a scintilla of verified fact? because some passerby spit put a speculative cheap shot? thence codified in 'the registry'?
conversely, since our hobby relies on unverified submissions as fact what's to prevent the publishing of pap such as the gaudy narratives we see the auction houses churn out?

a buyer simply must educate themselves on what they are looking at.
regarding suspicion of a 'rebody' which would presumably have all of the authentic SAI pieces from the donor/original: it would come down to an analysis of the unibody. when was the original donor created? when was it delivered? from that one could deduce the Dearborn/Nashville date code stamping range of the panels/glass. that should be enough one started....from there it gets to be fun. especially if you're thinking of dropping a couple hundred (large).

Camp upshur,
I reread your above post and did the homework you should have done by calling the 1965 Registrar. your "another gossip column like the Registry? without editing fact checking or attribution - look at the damage to SFM5S038, thankfully not mine) without a scintilla of verified fact?"

The information about this car came from an article in Mustangs and Fords 1/99 and discussions with previous owners. It is accurate and your assessment is not.
Call the 1965 Registrar before you throw rocks at the Registry and Registrar and get your facts straight. You owe it to him after slamming his credibility on a public forum. The only cheap shot was yours.
Dave
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: BGlover67 on May 23, 2021, 02:54:00 PM
What started out as an interesting and relevant topic quickly degenerated into bashing the registry, really?  There may be a lot of problems with this hobby as of yet, but the Registry and the folks who put it together aren't where you should be starting.  pretty sad. :'(
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: 427hunter on May 23, 2021, 05:52:12 PM
What started out as an interesting and relevant topic quickly degenerated into bashing the registry, really?  There may be a lot of problems with this hobby as of yet, but the Registry and the folks who put it together aren't where you should be starting.  pretty sad. :'(


It is interesting it's always the same players, "Camp Upshur" who "verified" a 65 gt350 that turned out to have restamped inner fender numbers is always bashing the registry, and those who for whatever reason feel the need  to share a negative opinion. Off topic and angry should be the forum motto.
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: JBinAlabama on June 02, 2021, 11:43:09 PM
I’m new here and no expert. However I do have enough sense to check with a registrar and someone who does know before purchasing. Best I can tell there are a lot of questionable cars out there but the sure enough documented cars are considerably more valuable  for a variety of reasons. An awful lot of things can happen over 50 years to a car.
I appreciate Mr. Pardee‘s information more than I can tell you on his opinion to this model year.
Hope to get to know some of you guys over the next few years as a newbie I will have many questions🤙🏼
Title: Re: Hagerty Value Guide - 1966 GT350 shot up!
Post by: chris NOS on June 03, 2021, 03:43:45 AM
jbinAlabama  you would be suprised how many time somebody is buying a car and checking only after if it's legit !!!
welcome on SAAC forum.