GT500KR Starter, should I rebuild it or....? To prevent hot starting potential problem.
This car had the starter replaced under warranty at Gotham Ford @ 2836 miles. From what I can determine by reading the shop order, it was related to heated starting. The starter was replaced with PN C8AZ 11002 A. ($27.18)
The case stamping and front nose casting engineering numbers) don't seem right, but this may have been replaced again at some point. ( 15k mile on odometer)
If this car has good cabling, battery, starter solenoid and grounding, can I use an original starter without having starter " failure" due to heat?
I've included photos of the starter markings for any comments..
I had a horrible hot start problem on a 428 cobra jet back in the day, even with good strong battery cables and good grounding. I think the core issue is more around the rebuilt starters just don't have the torque that a new manufacture starter would. You might also want to check the cooling system to make sure it's cooling as good as it can and not running hot.
First off, you are presuming that the starter was replaced due to starter failure. It is more likely that it was just how the service department reacted to a hard start complaint.
Welcome to the world of big block Mustangs.
There are several things going on with hot re-starts. It isn't necessarily that the car is over heating. It probably wasn't.
On a stock BB, you get heat soak of the carb within a half a minute or so of shutting down and often vapor lock in the fuel line.
The original carb gaskets are not heat isolating parts.
SOMETIMES the fuel will BOIL out of the bowls and SPILL INTO THE INTAKE MANIFOLD and flood the engine out.
In addition, the original battery cables and starter cable are too small a gauge.
You need to deal with those issues first.
Some have found using an aftermarket type of starter necessary. I use them on all three of my cars. It isn't just the BB's that can have issues but I'd recommend that you go to at least a 0 gauge cable. A 00 is what I use as well as dealing with isolating the carb(s) and fuel lines. Success so far.
ACCELL makes a large type starter that looks just like the original Ford. You can camouflage it to look like the Ford. That one I have in my Pantera. Without that starter, the car can be temperamental on a hot restart depending on the circumstances.
My GT500 and GT350 both have Tilton race starters in them. Those happen to be re-packaged Toyota starters. They are both fantastic and have never failed.
If you intend to show the car in judged Concourse, go the ACCELL big starter route with a can of Ford blue spray paint.
My '67 GT500 AND '68 GT350, both benefited from replacing the original fuel log with a Delrin fuel log. That really helps. You could feel the original fuel log very hot to the touch on hot engine. Too hot to touch really.
Delrin never gets hot or cold. It does not absorb or loose heat calories. The fuel log will not be hot to the touch on a hot engine. So the fuel in it won't be heated either.
There is also a Delrin fuel pump gasket that helps isolate the mechanical fuel pump from the engine block.
All three needed the heavy gauge cables. The GT350 is a 347 and was really having hot restart issues. It has 2-4's on a C60A "trans-am" intake so it got a Delrin fuel log also.
I should mention that drag racers often use carb heat isolaters made of PLYWOOD. Mine are just plain ole' black Delrin.
So here's the thing. You can be original or you can eliminate the problems. You can't have both simultaneously.
First of all that is not an original cobra jet starter. Cobra jet starter should have a C8 AF. Second of all that's just for a point of authenticity having the right starter. The problem with the starters is the people that rebuild them don't really know what they're doing. The guy I use can make a high powered starter out of any case it's all about the windings and setting it up and building it correctly. We've probably got 40 or 50 big block rebuilds and I've never had an issue
Quote from: TLea on October 24, 2021, 05:32:16 PM
First of all that is not an original cobra jet starter. Cobra jet starter should have a C8 AF. Second of all that's just for a point of authenticity having the right starter. The problem with the starters is the people that rebuild them don't really know what they're doing. The guy I use can make a high powered starter out of any case it's all about the windings and setting it up and building it correctly. We've probably got 40 or 50 big block rebuilds and I've never had an issue
+1 what he said. High torque windings are what I get my rebuilder to use. They cost more but have benefits . Also your timing has to be right to allow the engine to spin easier. A over bored engine that gets hot will also complicate things. Some rebuilt engines are built tight which buts a strain on a hot starter. If you are running headers you can try to heat wrap the starter but if you already gone down the day 2 road just get one of the various make gear reduced starters and be done with it. If you have gone headers the authenticity of the original starter will not make a difference one way or the other.
-2
QuoteIf you intend to show the car in judged Concourse, go the ACCELL big starter route with a can of Ford blue spray paint.
"Concours" cars should not have blue starters
;)
a vote for "DELRIN" is a vote for progress
Quote from: FL SAAC on October 25, 2021, 08:47:45 AM
a vote for "DELRIN" is a vote for progress
I understand he is running for office in Florida?
Quote from: Tired Sheep on October 25, 2021, 07:10:10 AM
-2
QuoteIf you intend to show the car in judged Concourse, go the ACCELL big starter route with a can of Ford blue spray paint.
"Concours" cars should not have blue starters
;)
I can't speak of 428CJ's but my 350 was Ford blue with yellow ink stamps. Why would '68 428's be finished differently?
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 25, 2021, 09:45:13 AM
Quote from: FL SAAC on October 25, 2021, 08:47:45 AM
a vote for "DELRIN" is a vote for progress
I understand he is running for office in Florida?
DELRIN can't stand a chance against the best Governor in the universe DESANTIS !
Mr. Gaines has great advice. My 428CJ was about impossible to start after a drive, short (5 minute) shutdown and attempt at a restart. Embarrassing to be getting gas, telling people about the car, hop in it and........barely cranks. I finally woke up and set the timing correctly and the hot start issue and about three other issues, all vanished. Check the timing, and then check it again. Then move on to other possibilities.
Quote from: rhjanes on October 25, 2021, 10:36:22 AM
Mr. Gaines has great advice. My 428CJ was about impossible to start after a drive, short (5 minute) shutdown and attempt at a restart. Embarrassing to be getting gas, telling people about the car, hop in it and........barely cranks. I finally woke up and set the timing correctly and the hot start issue and about three other issues, all vanished. Check the timing, and then check it again. Then move on to other possibilities.
After quite some discussions about "correct" versus "best" initial timing - interested what your setting was?
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 25, 2021, 09:51:00 AM
Quote from: Tired Sheep on October 25, 2021, 07:10:10 AM
-2
QuoteIf you intend to show the car in judged Concourse, go the ACCELL big starter route with a can of Ford blue spray paint.
"Concours" cars should not have blue starters
;)
I can't speak of 428CJ's but my 350 was Ford blue with yellow ink stamps. Why would '68 428's be finished differently?
65-70 Shelby GT350's (regular Mustangs too) all had the typical painted black starters from the factory. The ink stamps on the 65-67 starters were typically white. Later cars like 68 typically had metal stamped ID numbers and letters. I am not disputing that you may have found a blue starter on your car but it was most likely replaced. I knew a owner that painted everything under the hood of the many Mustangs and Shelby's he owned Ford engine light blue for example. He even painted his house that color.
When one says ALL, it precludes the possibility of anything else. I got my '68 on April 4, 1971. 11am.
Nothing on the engine had been touched.
The first time it was at a Shelby Convention I was told it wasn't a real Shelby because it had chrome reflectors sitting in flush in the quarter panels and 68's didn't come that way.
So I am used to doubters.
I always wanted to see -01106 and -01108, the other two Hertz cars in the group to compare "irregularities".
You can understand my apprehension in associating with Concours Judges I'm sure. It isn't a pretty sight. So far Kopec has never had to call for police assistance but there is always a first time.
As far as Desantis being the best Governor in the Universe, that doesn't say much for the Universe now does it? The Aliens aren't going to be happy with impugning the Universe. ;)
I wouldn't make public statements like that but then again I wouldn't perform the Cranberries "Zombie" either. Too many gun happy people out there.
Quote from: ctann on October 25, 2021, 11:41:38 AM
Quote from: rhjanes on October 25, 2021, 10:36:22 AM
Mr. Gaines has great advice. My 428CJ was about impossible to start after a drive, short (5 minute) shutdown and attempt at a restart. Embarrassing to be getting gas, telling people about the car, hop in it and........barely cranks. I finally woke up and set the timing correctly and the hot start issue and about three other issues, all vanished. Check the timing, and then check it again. Then move on to other possibilities.
After quite some discussions about "correct" versus "best" initial timing - interested what your setting was?
Honestly, it's been set for some 15 years and I don't remember. IIRC, it's about 2 degrees off from what the shop manual says. I run 93 octane with no alcohol in it. I don't run it hard at all, but no pings or detonation and it cranks pretty easy, even after a 30 minute run in 90 degree Texas weather.
All the stuff about setting using vacuum and such, didn't work for my car.
And, every car is different! Depends on the Cam, mechanical and vacuum advance on the distributor (mine was rebuilt and set by Tim, also some 20+ years ago).
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 25, 2021, 12:41:35 PM
When one says ALL, it precludes the possibility of anything else. I got my '68 on April 4, 1971. 11am.
Nothing on the engine had been touched.
The first time it was at a Shelby Convention I was told it wasn't a real Shelby because it had chrome reflectors sitting in flush in the quarter panels and 68's didn't come that way.
So I am used to doubters.
I always wanted to see -01106 and -01108, the other two Hertz cars in the group to compare "irregularities".
You can understand my apprehension in associating with Concours Judges I'm sure. It isn't a pretty sight. So far Kopec has never had to call for police assistance but there is always a first time.
As far as Desantis being the best Governor in the Universe, that doesn't say much for the Universe now does it? The Aliens aren't going to be happy with impugning the Universe. ;)
I wouldn't make public statements like that but then again I wouldn't perform the Cranberries "Zombie" either. Too many gun happy people out there.
I said "all" in this case because the evidence overwhelmingly supports a replacement starter regardless of it being on your car 3 years after it was built. Painted blue is out of the ordinary given the case was typically painted black on big block ,small block, 65-70 Shelby and regular Mustang. The yellow ink stamp is something else that is out of the ordinary given the ink stamps were typically white . Last but not least 68 production most typically was metal stamped and not ink stamped. Any one of these out of the ordinary things in this 68 context could signify a anomaly but all 3 on the same 68 starter is very hard to believe. Extra ordinary claims require extra ordinary proof. That proof is not why I am repeating my point. I know better then to try and convince you once your mind is made up . Of course you do what is best for you . I am trying to make a point here because others reading your post may get the idea that blue with yellow ink stamp is the way to go for a historical correct look on a 1968 Shelby GT350. The general conscience for the Shelby judging community and I dare say it is reasonable to conclude the same for the 68 regular Mustang community is that it would not be a good thing for others to copy that blue starter yellow ink stamp information for their 68 if they are concerned about the typical historical assemblyline look.
I'm fine with a black starter. I agree that my original starter is the only blue starter that I have ever seen. I don't look at a lot of starters though. I guess now I can safely save the blue paint for another purpose.
Here's the thing. The color of the starter isn't going to make it easier to start a heat soaked engine. There are other things that you need to do to reduce this tendency.
As far as proof of the starter color, I'll repeat what Pete once said to me like a Pentecostal Minister from the pulpit, "YOU CAN'T PROVE ANYTHING. YOU WEREN'T THERE ON THE DAY YOUR CAR WAS BUILT TO DOCUMENT IT!" ::)
I can't disagree with the absolute logic of that. I try to deal in probabilities. I don't want him to throw lightening bolts at me. The FACT that it was as described I will now keep to myself...maybe. ;)
It's just difficult for me to conceive of even now that Hertz NY, NY service department (Gotham Ford) to have been possibly so intentionally Satanically devious?
So all considered, I plead nolo contendere.
...and incidentally, it isn't Ford blue that I painted my house. It is called "Corporate Blue". It is just coincidental that they are similar! The roof shingles are called "Deep Space Universe Blue", sparkle a bit like stars in the Cosmos and just fit the color palate. So there. :)
Quote from: TLea on October 24, 2021, 05:32:16 PM
First of all that is not an original cobra jet starter. Cobra jet starter should have a C8 AF. Second of all that's just for a point of authenticity having the right starter. The problem with the starters is the people that rebuild them don't really know what they're doing. The guy I use can make a high powered starter out of any case it's all about the windings and setting it up and building it correctly. We've probably got 40 or 50 big block rebuilds and I've never had an issue
2375 starter original rebuilt a few years ago
I agree with Tlea, that if you rewind the coil field in a rebuild, in many cases you can improve the torque output of the original starter.
I've been involved with this for 50 years or so and I can't think of ANY rebuilders that would even offer that. If they do, then I see that as a new option.
At most, they would turn the armature and put new brushes in them but mostly just a new Bendix and clean it up.
What was suggested to me that proved to be true was that on a heat soaked engine, the starter requires maximum voltage and it tends to reduce the voltage to the coil and causes the ignition not to fire.
The way to fix that is to use larger gauge cables from the battery and to the starter.
The first time my son saw the solenoid smoking trying to restart the car, he went running for the fire extinguisher and tried to disconnect the battery thinking that there was a big dead short.
He's smarter now but still he starts trembling if the engine doesn't kick right up. ;D
I told him you just need to keep flamable liquids away from the solenoid. ::)
Maybe the shop was Precision Power in downtown Lansing?
I dealt with a very slow hot cranking 428PI in my GT500 for a couple of years. Even bought a heat shield for the starter, and it didn't help. It wasn't until I had to replace the battery (completely dead) that the problem disappeared. Turns out that I had a bad cell in the battery, and once the engine got hot, it would only slowly crank. Once I had a brand new battery in it, problem has never happened again, and I even removed the heat shield