Not sure if this is the correct forum, but looking at a Cobra dual quad for sale, but don't think it has the correct Carter carbs. It has j2-9400s but reading correct ones should be 3258S and 3259S.
Also, was the Cobra Carter dual quad intake ever reproduced? I read the Holley version was.
If anyone can confirm, or provide more info on how to authenticate, it would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rich
Blue Thunder is the one reproducing the Ford SB 2x4. The Carter 2x4 was a very early introduction and seen offered on SB Cobras.
It is not a particularly high performance design. It is similar to the 2x4's offered on GM's of the time.
It's a low riser design and you shouldn't expect anything spectacular out of it.
The Carters that you mentioned are the original list numbers but probably aren't of interest to anyone but a 289 Cobra owner that had them new on the car?
They're more of a curiosity. The Holley set up is a better concept offer 3x2's and 2x4's.
Randy (GT350R) calls it the "slug" but it just needs a little port matching to wake it up. Having run it I can tell you that it makes nice power and is a bit unique to drive.
...but no. No reproductions of the 2x4 Carter COBRA that I am aware of.
This topic comes up once in a while and the general consensus is that they are not reproduced. As with anything from almost 60 years ago there has been major performance improvements but if you are looking for a good boost of performance and a totally cool look under your hood run it. I run one and have over the last 40 years and couldnt be happier. They run good , look good, and have that wow factor when you pop the hood. You will be the only one on your block with one as I have been in my neck of the woods. Same with the early VETTE or HEMI or COBRA.... Old is Gold, modern parts- are your true go fast friends.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm considering it even if it doesn't have the correct carbs, obviously the price has to reflect that.
As you said 427heaven, it will look cool under the hood and add some pop to my 289 hipo.
Thanks,
Rich
Quote from: livetoride60 on November 29, 2021, 09:57:56 AM
Not sure if this is the correct forum, but looking at a Cobra dual quad for sale, but don't think it has the correct Carter carbs. It has j2-9400s but reading correct ones should be 3258S and 3259S.
Also, was the Cobra Carter dual quad intake ever reproduced? I read the Holley version was.
If anyone can confirm, or provide more info on how to authenticate, it would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rich
My advice is to resist the urge. If you want duel fours get the later Ford intake/intakes designed for the Holley carbs. There is a reason/reasons that the carter set up went extinct . Best of luck what ever you decide.
This is a better and more impressive set up I think then the Carters? Likely cheaper as well.
I agree with Bob on this. IF you're gonna' take a plunge, if you insist, do it right!
It is kinda' like a plunge. Like you plunged off a cliff when you open them up.
Green Peace is gonna' hate you. Don't let them see it. ;)
You have to hear the secondaries when they open up? It's like a racing sail boat when you open the big sail. There's this big "WHOMP" !
These are the List 3300/3301's. You would think it was drastically over carb'd wouldn't you? You'd be drastically wrong! I was shocked. My whiplash will heal soon I think?
2 1850's work nicely also. There is no room left to fit carbs. The back one is right up against the firewall and the front about 1/2" from touching the distributor cap.
Think of this set up as a double pumper (of your choice of size) with vacuum controlled after burners like a fighter jet has. The only thing is that they will feed into your narcissism and if you didn't have any before, you will after. ;D
I don't know who originally conceived of this but they are very dangerous individuals?
Dual fours plus A/C is Cool Squared.
Quote from: Side-Oilers on November 30, 2021, 03:45:35 PM
Dual fours plus A/C is Cool Squared.
Well I'm just too cool to stand myself. ::)
Next time I have a stuck float, flooding, can't get the fuel level right, and burn myself on the headers again, remind me how cool I am, 'cause I forget that kinda' stuff real fast and maybe I'll believe you, ok? ::)
It's my coolness that always has me in trouble but foolishness is a more accurate term?
Same couple guys talking about this for years... Nice looking Doug, just lacking the early Cobra heritage 62- 63 - 64.
Quote from: 427heaven on November 30, 2021, 04:08:21 PM
Same couple guys talking about this for years... Nice looking Doug, just lacking the early Cobra heritage 62- 63 - 64.
True. This is the C60A "Trans Am" intake. That was for the Cobra's little brothers.
The Carter preceded even the over the counter "High Riser" by at least two years.
A 289 Cobra would be more correct with the Carters admittedly. You might want to look at that linkage though to verify that it is progressive. As I saw it, they were tied together and ran on both carbs all the time?
The Ford 3x2 Holley's that Jeff Burgy ran all of the time is a very nice set up as well on a 289. I'm cheating here a bit with a 347 kit stuffed in, so the cubes do help.
I'm just showing off the wares here like the Devil. Just attempting to corrupt another poor soul to a lifetime of "Holy sh it skis". Me bad.
Shelby American started installing 2-4V induction as a new Cobra factory option in September 1963 based on new car invoices. The first well known COBRA high rise intakes came out in 1965 MUSTANG GT350s in late 1964.
Quote from: Dan Case on November 30, 2021, 04:20:02 PM
Shelby American started installing 2-4V induction as a new Cobra factory option in September 1963 based on new car invoices. The first well known COBRA high rise intakes came out in 1965 MUSTANG GT350s in late 1964.
Yes. No argument but the 2x4 SB Holley set up was only over the counter. In SOME catalogs that intake manifold is referred to as a 2x4 "High Rise". That is what I was referring to. Not the single 4v COBRA high rise.
They don't even show up until around '66.
Back in the day I only saw one 289 Cobra with the dual Carters and he would run against 427 Cobras neck and neck. So I wouldn't call it all looks.
It had the American Racing wheels on it as well so we always thought it might be one of the Dragonsnakes at the time. Legends and speculation always abounded around Cobras then.
Holleys have got their problems. They just became popular because of their tuning ability. I will admit that two Holleys on the same set up are probably four times as difficult to deal with when something is wrong as only one is?
So far for me most of the issues focus on linkage issues.
The OP did not state what he was considering the setup for.
Good.... So I guess you can stop telling people that a single 715 is way too big for a 289 eh Doug? 😂😂😂😂
715 is a great size in a Holley due to venturi/throttle bore relationship.
For a driver, I'm more of a fan of the 3x2 setup, but for all out power, it is hard to beat 2x4.
If you want a hybrid, building two 1848s is a worthy venture.
Oh and regarding the float issue, remember the carbs are backwards and probably not level. Most backwards 2x4s run way better with the secondaries a hair lower than normal. (Yes the float level can richen the a/f ratio even at idle)
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on November 30, 2021, 07:06:31 PM
Good.... So I guess you can stop telling people that a single 715 is way too big for a 289 eh Doug? 😂😂😂😂
715 is a great size in a Holley due to venturi/throttle bore relationship.
For a driver, I'm more of a fan of the 3x2 setup, but for all out power, it is hard to beat 2x4.
If you want a hybrid, building two 1848s is a worthy venture.
Oh and regarding the float issue, remember the carbs are backwards and probably not level. Most backwards 2x4s run way better with the secondaries a hair lower than normal. (Yes the float level can richen the a/f ratio even at idle)
Yes I do still think a 715 is too big on a 289 in a single 4 on the street. Even on the track I find them flat and lacking crispness. I'm constantly waiting for the power to come on. I feel like I can be checking my email?
If I might quote Ford on that subject here, "a 600cfm carb on your small block Ford is all you need except if you are intending to run at Lemans". That's the horses mouth if you ask me.
Two 600's on a Ford 2x4 intake is not to big at all. It has to do with the throttle opening progression and the throttle crispness that is maintained. I'm not running a 289 though. It's a 347 with AFR heads. A bit of a different animal.
To me, a 4776, 600cfm double pumper is way more responsive then a 715 ever was or ever will be.
Just two 1850's with progressive linkages are similar to a single 4776 response wise but with after burners opened by engine demand and a way better intake manifold then the S2MS Cobra.
In all fairness to Holley though, what has to be considered here is the intake manifold design. All of the Ford 2x4 intakes have better fuel distribution then even the COBRA S2MS intake does.
What is now run in "Vintage" is a Blue Thunder S2MS which has additional runner volume cast in and even those manifolds are internally reworked but don't say anything that is a secret no one is supposed to know?
The two small block 2x4 Holley intakes both have wide open throttle characteristics of an individual runner intakes, particularly the C6OA "Trans AM" intake and it's variants. That affects throttle crispness and fuel distribution. As cast it has nearly identical runner lengths of around 4.5 inches. A number that the Weber intake manifold design people claim is about optimum.
I only have one FE intake, that's my C7ZX "mediumn riser". It could be a lot better but I think the main issue with that one is lack of "line of sight" to the valves and runner lengths being too long?
So while you are talking about optimum throttle venturi ratios of the carburetors, I'm talking about the complete package results.
So what's it to you about which carb is "good" and which is "not so good"? You're gonna' get 'em all to restore anyway. And you should. I can't think of anyone who does better work on Holleys then you. The only problem with your carbs are they are too pretty to get dirty! ;D
Here is what the '66 289 Ford High Rise looks like.
Eh, venturi to throttle bore relations truly help with even, clean fuel draw.
Running a 3300 vs a 3259 is a different animal. Not to mention there are several distinct 3259s that act waaay differently. Sadly the list 4118 and later 3259 reproductions mimic the calibration of what I consider to be the worst and most unusable 3259 variant.
3300/3301 also have a different booster, booster pin and notches make a difference.
If you like the 715s for 2x4, you'd love the 652s. They are pretty neat, probably why they saw so much use as factory race gear.
I understand intake differences, I often make small adjustments depending on what the carb is being bolted to.
Two reasons your single 715 experience is weak.
You are running a particular variant. If it lacks the proper idle feed your a/f ratio goes rich/lean/really really rich/ lean again.
Carb lacks vac secondary amplifier and doesn't open secondaries fully. The longer vs diaphragm causes that to happen as well. Cracking the secondaries and them not opening often gives a super dead feeling. Anyway, could ramble about this forever.
The 3300/3301's are for my 428. They needed setting up so I just ran them in on the 347. Not exact but close enough to break the new 428 in with.
My 1850's are -1s from 67 or 68. They're ok and simple enough. I can get them to idle down to 700+ or so and that's with a 236@.050 cam, so that isn't bad.
I had to go with an electric choke on them. The stock hot air Holley was being somewhat erratic.
I have a pair of matching '60s 1848's but haven't gone through them yet and probably won't bother with them at this point.
No. I don't like the 4118's. It may just be that I don't care for single 4's with vacuum secondaries? Dual 4's have my attention.
The C6OA apparently was set up with 1850's 652's on the T/A cars and there was an issue under race conditions of the secondaries not wanting to shut.
That's where those new concept "mechanical secondary" carbs Randy has stemmed from. "Necessity is the mother of invention" thing.
One of the Ford mags did a dyno of duals v single 4's and thought that they proved it was a 15hp difference. The issue was that they had an RV cam in their dyno engine which really doesn't show the possibilities. It might have been with an Edelbrock 2x4 so I'm not sure that equates either?
I'm sure that the difference on mine is much more then 15. Maybe closer to 100? The difficulty in that is the cam selection becomes really critical and even the headers are joining in with the party.
I've run the 69 Boss 302 3310, the 68 428 Holley, and a 3259 (S2MS) with all the same disappointment.
The Holley double pumpers are good. A 4776 was a little small and a 4779 about right but maybe a little large for sudden WOT?
No matter now. My 68 GT350 is the dual 1850's on the C6OA. The 67 GT500 is the 3300/3301 on the C7ZX and my Pantera is 48ida's on a high port Hall Weber manifold.
I don't foresee any more experimentation in my future with the possibility of substituting two S8MS-9510-C center sections for the 1850's but dual 600 double pumpers, that I could talk myself into trying? Unfortunately that series of carbs can't even be altered to fit a 2x4 intake. There are no side hung bowls available for that kind of a set up.
Then again, I was always my own worst enemy and why should that change now? What else do I have to do but throw fouled spark plugs at a Motorcraft sign on the wall?
A good article concerning 2x4 setups.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/5-tips-dual-quad-carburetion-success/
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on December 30, 2021, 07:25:09 AM
A good article concerning 2x4 setups.
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/5-tips-dual-quad-carburetion-success/
Roy
A very helpful article for a start. Nice catch.
It does mention Carl's Ford Parts as a carburetor source.
I have a question about that for someone in the know? I can't get i touch with them. They don't answer the phone or reply to my messages. I haven't been able to figure that out?
My best guess is Carl is avoiding me and my NY addresses? Any ideas on this?
"Small block" carbs should face FORWARD. That is the way Ford intended them to be run.
BTW The carbs actually used on the '67 T/A cars were BJ/BK (2804/2805) there are several period pictures of the Titus car in the Peterson Engine Annual showing the ink stamped numbers. It was Jerry who complained about the erratic nature of the vacuum carbs in a road race situation prompting Harold Droste (rip) to create the mechanical secondary versions. The '67 John McComb car (#33) has an original pair of these first design , non center squirt , mechnical secondary 2804/5 (SK) carbs. I have some too as well as the second and third designs.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on December 30, 2021, 11:12:56 AM
"Small block" carbs should face FORWARD. That is the way Ford intended them to be run.
BTW The carbs actually used on the '67 T/A cars were BJ/BK (2804/2805) there are several period pictures of the Titus car in the Peterson Engine Annual showing the ink stamped numbers. It was Jerry who complained about the erratic nature of the vacuum carbs in a road race situation prompting Harold Droste (rip) to create the mechanical secondary versions. The '67 John McComb car (#33) has an original pair of these first design , non center squirt , mechnical secondary 2804/5 (SK) carbs. I have some too as well as the second and third designs.
Randy
;D
Oh yes great and gifted wise one! Ahoom, ahoom! Shush, I'm in Temple. ;)
I actually tried to buy a set of the Holley continuation 2804/2805 carbs from Branda, who was out of stock and then Carl's who I could never get in contact with (still to this day). ;)
I tried three sets of carbs. The first were two '94 Mustang GT 4180's converted to 4150 bowls. Initially, I liked the idea of the 14.6 idle. Those were ok but when I tried to richen the idle by installing 4-40 set screws into the idle well I killed the idle.
They just don't take that modification like a 1850 does.
Then I needed to set up my 3300 and 3301 that I am going to use on my GT500, so I installed them expecting them to be disastrously too big. Guess what? No they aren't too big and the engine kind'a loves them. That worked out since I had the 427 linkage to mount them backwards like the FE's do. Who knew that was going to be sacrilege?
Then I rebuilt a pair of 1850-1's and find them about the same as the 3300 and 3301's.
I had them installed forward but 1) didn't like the proximity (closeness) to the distributor cap and 2) the reproduction linkage for the forward mount, needs some considerable modification to make it work right. So backwards they are.
Years ago when I was young, handsome and foolish I had my Olds 442 burn to the ground because of a short from the distributor to the carb line. So I'm naturally apprehensive about anything that volitile close to something like a distributor cap which can crack and short out to a carb? Color me needlessly worrisome? ::)
Now I'm older and can't run as fast (45/400) to get far enough away from the fire in time.
Who knows, in the future in a fit of righteous indignation, I may decide to flip them around again? I wouldn't want to be ostracized at the next SAAC meeting and called impure, have my buttons cut off, forced to turn in my CS insignias and drummed out of the Corps? Ya' never know!
I still have a pair of 1848's sitting here expecting that to be the right carbs but at this point I don't think that I will bother with them at all?
The 1848 was used as a basis for the C6OF AA and AB which were slightly different calibration and of course different choke ( and lack of) as well as the special secondary "lids" for linking the vacuum diaphrams , plus the linkage studs.
Doug , no surprise the 715s (3300/3301) are better. The BJ/BKs were used to limit upper HP and keep the rods from exiting.
Run your 347 carbs backwards. You were never a conformist. Watch #1 cylinder as it might run lean without a primary on top of it.
Your constant source of irritation from Commifornia. Have a happy New Year.
Quote from: gt350hr on December 30, 2021, 01:37:28 PM
The 1848 was used as a basis for the C6OF AA and AB which were slightly different calibration and of course different choke ( and lack of) as well as the special secondary "lids" for linking the vacuum diaphrams , plus the linkage studs.
Doug , no surprise the 715s (3300/3301) are better. The BJ/BKs were used to limit upper HP and keep the rods from exiting.
Run your 347 carbs backwards. You were never a conformist. Watch #1 cylinder as it might run lean without a primary on top of it.
Your constant source of irritation from Commifornia. Have a happy New Year.
irritation = enlightenment 8)
I was bored and felt like stirring up this pot. Always works when Doug is around. Here's a little carb and intake porn to add to the mix.
Roy
Some more
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on December 30, 2021, 03:49:08 PM
Some more
Roy
You always have great porn. You are the only one that I know that puts intake manifolds out as Christmas decorations?
Doesn't the wife tell you to keep them off of the Dining Room table?
Is there an dual Dominator for inline valve heads?
No dual dominators for inlines.
My wife doesn't mind where I have things as long as I sell something every once in a while.. She even puts up some of my car posters around the house and occasionally rotates some of my models around various rooms. She has some of my car stuff in the dining room, front room, family room, kitchen and even in one of the bathrooms. She even helps with cleaning the mancave in the house and the garage🤩
Roy
I think it boils down to the haves and the have nots. Some have some, some dont, but all want them!
Quote from: TA Coupe on December 30, 2021, 03:37:50 PM
I was bored and felt like stirring up this pot. Always works when Doug is around. Here's a little carb and intake porn to add to the mix.
Roy
On that Shelby 2x4 Boss 302 manifold, the rear overhang
appears to be more then on the C60A? My rear carb is pretty close to the firewall.
Does that even fit in a Mustang?
That article didn't really tell you anything other than "buy new carbs, and have them installed and tuned by professionals."
Pros that couldn't tell their dual 600s aren't 600s 😂
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on December 30, 2021, 05:44:15 PM
That article didn't really tell you anything other than "buy new carbs, and have them installed and tuned by professionals."
Pros that couldn't tell their dual 600s aren't 600s 😂
I don't think there was enough time in investigating the variations for the article? It grasped some of the significance but missed some that I've already realized. Of course so far for me it's two years worth. There is probably more that I haven't investigated too?
There is some discovery necessary on the 2x4's. So far it's taking me where I didn't expect to go?
I was kicking around two 4776 double pumpers but don't know how to do a secondary side hung bowl with an accelerator pump to get them to fit the manifold? That MIGHT be interesting...maybe?
See. This is why I never get done. ::)
In assembly of my 428, I went with the best aftermarket rods now available. That's a nice block. Wouldn't want to hurt it.
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 30, 2021, 05:39:26 PM
Quote from: TA Coupe on December 30, 2021, 03:37:50 PM
I was bored and felt like stirring up this pot. Always works when Doug is around. Here's a little carb and intake porn to add to the mix.
Roy
On that Shelby 2x4 Boss 302 manifold, the rear overhang appears to be more then on the C60A? My rear carb is pretty close to the firewall.
Does that even fit in a Mustang?
Here's a picture of one in a BOSS 302
ROY
The only way I could measure would be if a Cobra oval air cleaner could be made to fit but I see the carbs are in wrong anyway.
You need progressive linkage on the street not parallel and I have found that those metal tube fuel rails create vapor lock.
I went to Delrin so the log stays cool. The fuel literally boils in those metal logs. They get very hot to the touch.
I suppose that's the difference between show and go? Original stupid, and updated smarter?
more intake porn!
(https://i.imgur.com/3W4697L.jpg?2)
You have room for more!
Good on ya Mobley..... I see you saved some money on the kitchen table and oven set up, to purchase those nice items. I recently upgraded to a coffee pot that has an auto timer to be ready when im ready for breakfast. ;D
I don't have a 2x4 intake table. Can I play too?
Is there anyone here with a SHELBY lettered T/A intake? Nash's are cool too. They're magnesium so they burn.
I'll bet you a Detomaso Pantera Weber intake and raise you Shelby T/A? How about a SHO and a "call'?
'Lu' thought she heard me betting? Wants to know what's going on and if she's in the race?
Only thing left in my reserve. An A331 Ford Motorsport "Torker" for A3 heads.
I made the mistake of putting this in the dishwasher and forgetting about it. Wifey is pissed.
I fix her car for free so she won't throw me out on New Years Day?
The "kitchen table" is in the shop office . Stove is for when I sleep out there because the wife is mad from me buying too many car parts 8). You asked about Shelby lettered ta, I have that, the C6OA and the fomoco 2x4 but don't have the C6ZZ intake. More pics
(https://i.imgur.com/pu6tkDn.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/QY8bOEQ.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/5vufiNP.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/vCTJKlx.jpg)
Great collection- Happy New Year! ;)
Kids and their toys... ;D ;)
Just kidding, nice collections... :)
TOB
Quote from: TOBKOB on January 01, 2022, 06:55:44 PM
Kids and their toys... ;D ;)
Just kidding, nice collections... :)
TOB
If you leave the carbs off they make great mouse habitats. When they pop up, the cats play what-a-molie with their heads.
I found all those sunflower seeds inside the plenum from the poised mouse bates.
I love all the old multicarb setups. Wish I could keep all of them but I like finding a home for them.
Great pics from all (even you Doug)
Thanks for sharing, love seeing these.
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on January 02, 2022, 12:38:11 PM
I love all the old multicarb setups. Wish I could keep all of them but I like finding a home for them.
Great pics from all (even you Doug)
Thanks for sharing, love seeing these.
Gee...THANKS Drew! ::)
Here's something that you don't see everyday...or ever?
A 'cammer with 4x2 Holleys. :o
I think maybe you need a top national security clearance to drive that thing?
I'm building one like that for a customer. Lemans bowls, except they are going to be split dominators.
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on January 03, 2022, 09:33:50 AM
I'm building one like that for a customer. Lemans bowls, except they are going to be split dominators.
Is that a fabricated intake? I don't recognize it? It looks like there are removable carb adapter plates.
Billet Doug
Quote from: gt350hr on January 03, 2022, 10:48:33 AM
Billet Doug
I see the "billet" adapter plates on top, but are you saying the entire manifold is fabricated?
Yes . There was never a "box" manifold made for the cammer.