Hi all,
I was at the Portland Swamp Meet this weekend and I came across this oil pan from a buddy. He thought I might know the story on it, but I do not. I expect it is aftermarket. The welds do look very professional. It has three baffles inside. I don't think it is a home made job. Does anyone have a idea on the manufacture or any other info?
Thanks
Cory
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/516-030422015737.png)
Copy of a BOSS 302 Trans AM oil pan.
Roy
Roy is correct except it doesn't have the deeper bottom rear for the scavenge section. Would make a good street or track pan. Depending on the depth there was a 9 quart and a 10 quart version.
John
looks like a t/a pan more pictures would help
I'm not so sure how useful it is on a street car with the extended tank in front? There might be interference issues with that.
The Bud Moore pan is extended in front also but has a skid plate built into it.
Hi all,
Thank you for your help. Your input provided me enough info to find other information. From a fellow member here, he sent me a copy of a page from the TransAm catalog from back in the day and I found an image of a BOSS 302 TransAm engine, both with a very similar oil pan. See attached images. With your input and these two other sources of information, I feel confident to tell my buddy he as a period BOSS 302 TransAm oil pan.
Thanks
Cory
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/516-030422232220.png)
I'm not sure that anyone can call any of the fabricated pans as original with the exception of the Aviaids on the factory built R models?
Does that really matter though?
What is "original" on an "original Boss 302 Trans Am car"? There was only one from Shelby Racing. There are a bunch more Trans-Am cars then that.
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 04, 2022, 09:37:06 AMWhat is "original" on an "original Boss 302 Trans Am car"? There was only one from Shelby Racing. There are a bunch more Trans-Am cars then that.
That was a very trick car body wise. Titus and his Pontiac was garaged next to Shelby at one of the races. They rented a Mustang Fastback and parked it next to Shelby's space. It was easy to see the mods with a street car nearby. After an hour CS came over and complimented Titus on the joke and begged him to move it before any tech inspectors strolled by.
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 04, 2022, 11:42:45 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 04, 2022, 09:37:06 AMWhat is "original" on an "original Boss 302 Trans Am car"? There was only one from Shelby Racing. There are a bunch more Trans-Am cars then that.
That was a very trick car body wise. Titus and his Pontiac was garaged next to Shelby at one of the races. They rented a Mustang Fastback and parked it next to Shelby's space. It was easy to see the mods with a street car nearby. After an hour CS came over and complimented Titus on the joke and begged him to move it before any tech inspectors strolled by.
Yup, I can see that. I wouldn't be shocked to find that the body wouldn't even fit the "templet" like they would check in NASCAR. I think that car had the engine location "fooled with" too, like the Daytonna Coupes had done to them. ;)
I've seen that with race cars that had long race histories. I seen the discussion of how do I restore the car to original?
The consensus seems to be that you need to pick an "era" to not restore but to return it to?
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 04, 2022, 09:37:06 AM
I'm not sure that anyone can call any of the fabricated pans as original with the exception of the Aviaids on the factory built R models?
Does that really matter though?
What is "original" on an "original Boss 302 Trans Am car"? There was only one from Shelby Racing. There are a bunch more Trans-Am cars then that.
Hi Shelbydoug,
I did pick my words carefully. Period and original mean different things. I believe the pan is a period piece, from back in the day. I can't say it is original to any TransAm BOSS 302. It is likely just an over the counter part (OTC).
Thanks
Cory
The original pans were a Bud Moore development. The lowered section in the T/A oil pans allowed for a scavenge section that was on the lower part of the oil pump to pick up the oil from the rear of the pan that got trapped back there during acceleration to be brought forward run through a de-aerating centrifuge and drained back into the feed area of the pan. The pans without the lowered area were typically made by other fabricators. Even though Aviad has offered them as well. Without all of the parts the lowered section only does anything during braking.....and that may allow it to hold oil for too long.
Great pics and explanation so it can be understood easily.
Roy
Quote from: 6s1640 on April 04, 2022, 01:54:15 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 04, 2022, 09:37:06 AM
I'm not sure that anyone can call any of the fabricated pans as original with the exception of the Aviaids on the factory built R models?
Does that really matter though?
What is "original" on an "original Boss 302 Trans Am car"? There was only one from Shelby Racing. There are a bunch more Trans-Am cars then that.
Hi Shelbydoug,
I did pick my words carefully. Period and original mean different things. I believe the pan is a period piece, from back in the day. I can't say it is original to any TransAm BOSS 302. It is likely just an over the counter part (OTC).
Thanks
Cory
Yes agreed. Very good explanation.
The development of the Boss 302 Bud Moore pans is interesting. Now you have me wondering if part of the problem with the 302 Tunnel ports blowing engines was this issue of oil being trapped in the back of the pan? ???
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 04, 2022, 04:17:03 PM
Quote from: 6s1640 on April 04, 2022, 01:54:15 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 04, 2022, 09:37:06 AM
I'm not sure that anyone can call any of the fabricated pans as original with the exception of the Aviaids on the factory built R models?
Does that really matter though?
What is "original" on an "original Boss 302 Trans Am car"? There was only one from Shelby Racing. There are a bunch more Trans-Am cars then that.
Hi Shelbydoug,
I did pick my words carefully. Period and original mean different things. I believe the pan is a period piece, from back in the day. I can't say it is original to any TransAm BOSS 302. It is likely just an over the counter part (OTC).
Thanks
Cory
Yes agreed. Very good explanation.
The development of the Boss 302 Bud Moore pans is interesting. Now you have me wondering if part of the problem with the 302 Tunnel ports blowing engines was this issue of oil being trapped in the back of the pan? ???
Yes, as the Two Stage oiling was developed in response to that issue. There were also huge quality control issues with the Ford assembled engines themselves. Notice in the pictures provided there are NO HIGH VOLUME primary oil stage components for the actual T/A pumps. The pumps were standard volume with a higher pressure spring. The upper section of the pump is also aluminum compared to cast iron.
The last picture is of an NOS pump from Holman Moody.
John
Cool piece to bump into.
Quote from: JohnSlack on April 04, 2022, 06:27:37 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 04, 2022, 04:17:03 PM
Quote from: 6s1640 on April 04, 2022, 01:54:15 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 04, 2022, 09:37:06 AM
I'm not sure that anyone can call any of the fabricated pans as original with the exception of the Aviaids on the factory built R models?
Does that really matter though?
What is "original" on an "original Boss 302 Trans Am car"? There was only one from Shelby Racing. There are a bunch more Trans-Am cars then that.
Hi Shelbydoug,
I did pick my words carefully. Period and original mean different things. I believe the pan is a period piece, from back in the day. I can't say it is original to any TransAm BOSS 302. It is likely just an over the counter part (OTC).
Thanks
Cory
Yes agreed. Very good explanation.
The development of the Boss 302 Bud Moore pans is interesting. Now you have me wondering if part of the problem with the 302 Tunnel ports blowing engines was this issue of oil being trapped in the back of the pan? ???
Yes, as the Two Stage oiling was developed in response to that issue. There were also huge quality control issues with the Ford assembled engines themselves. Notice in the pictures provided there are NO HIGH VOLUME primary oil stage components for the actual T/A pumps. The pumps were standard volume with a higher pressure spring. The upper section of the pump is also aluminum compared to cast iron.
The last picture is of an NOS pump from Holman Moody.
John
This is the first mentioning I've heard of the two stage Moore set up? The pans have been shown seemingly forever with the dropped rear but no one ever mentioned the dual stage pump that I can recall?
It could have been proprietary information at the time. I've talked to Bud Moore many times since the '60s and he has always been secretive to me and would say something like "no, sorry, I can't sell that to you". Not that it really mattered. Just sayin' what things were like then.
Shelby was no better. Keeping his best stuff for his own team and selling you "real R model parts" that he didn't run. Typical really. ;)
Similar photo to the one Cory posted in reply #5, with the 2-stage system...
If the rear pickup runs dry and sucks air, isn't that an issue for keeping pressure in the system without air pockets?
it would seem the distributor gear loading would be an area of concern (?)
Quote from: shelbydoug on April 05, 2022, 01:03:07 PM
If the rear pickup runs dry and sucks air, isn't that an issue for keeping pressure in the system without air pockets?
All of the scavenged oil is drawn into the lower section of the two stage pump. That oil is then run through the circular shaped de-aeration section that allows gravity to send the oil free from air and foam directly into the square portion of the oil pan that feeds the main pressure pump. So the main pressure pump section due to the baffling and the delivery of oil from above always has an adequate supply of oil.
The fitting on the side of the pan with the internal drain back baffle is the return from the tank that gets the oil vapor that comes in from the fitting on the side of the intake manifold.
There is a fitting on the front right side of the oil pan that was for checking oil level.
John
Quote from: camp upshur on April 05, 2022, 01:57:42 PM
it would seem the distributor gear loading would be an area of concern (?)
The primary pump keeps the distributor gear load pretty much even, most in 1969 also used the offset distributor which had the benefit of the rubber belt to help with any vibration.
John
Hello John, Seems like you know a lot of information about BOSS 302's, :o have you been at it for a while?
nah, he just got his copy of the Boss 302 Oil Pan & System Modification Booklet...( Really...RARE!)... ::)
John has been into BOSS cars for a long time and is a highly respected member of the boss 302 forum..
ROY
Quote from: Wedgeman on April 05, 2022, 07:24:34 PM
nah, he just got his copy of the Boss 302 Oil Pan & System Modification Booklet...( Really...RARE!)... ::)
The Boss 302 Oil Pan & System Modification Booklet was one of those booklets that came in cereal boxes when I was really little. You also needed the "Official Johnny Quest and Hadji" Decoder Ring. Most people never could break the code because they did not know the name of Johnny's dog was "Bandit", so typically they threw the Booklet away.
However when Road and Track got to do the drivers test on the actual Bud Moore car after the season and Bud Moore offered to let the magazine people see any part of the race engine......Except what was in the oil pan, I became obsessed. So Thanks to Johnny Quest and Scooby Doo I got answers....And apparently pictures as well.
John
Quote from: JohnSlack on April 05, 2022, 11:06:50 PM
Quote from: Wedgeman on April 05, 2022, 07:24:34 PM
nah, he just got his copy of the Boss 302 Oil Pan & System Modification Booklet...( Really...RARE!)... ::)
The Boss 302 Oil Pan & System Modification Booklet was one of those booklets that came in cereal boxes when I was really little. You also needed the "Official Johnny Quest and Hadji" Decoder Ring. Most people never could break the code because they did not know the name of Johnny's dog was "Bandit", so typically they threw the Booklet away.
However when Road and Track got to do the drivers test on the actual Bud Moore car after the season and Bud Moore offered to let the magazine people see any part of the race engine......Except what was in the oil pan, I became obsessed. So Thanks to Johnny Quest and Scooby Doo I got answers....And apparently pictures as well.
John
John,
Well done!
Cheers
~Earl J
Quote from: 6s1640 on April 03, 2022, 02:04:01 AM
Hi all,
I was at the Portland Swamp Meet this weekend and I came across this oil pan from a buddy. He thought I might know the story on it, but I do not. I expect it is aftermarket. The welds do look very professional. It has three baffles inside. I don't think it is a home made job. Does anyone have a idea on the manufacture or any other info?
Thanks
Cory
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/516-030422015737.png)
Probably the most important advice on that oil pan. Either acid dip it to remove the rust or soda blast it. Using any other blast media would cause the little remnants to hide in the baffling and it may never come clean.
+1 on acid or soda blasting. Once rust is gone and pan has been dried slosh some oil inside the interior of the pan to keep surface rust from quickly starting.
The people that do my headers have a solution that they dip the headers in to remove all of the rust and contaminants, then the ceramic coat them.
They have done three sets of headers for me and so far all are still like they returned them to me.
Most of those pans were gold cad new. A couple like the R pan were just silver cad.
Both have little resistance to surface rust.
There are colors available now for the ceramic coating. My favorite is Titanium. It is like a low sheen gold cad color. VERY classy.
These were pretty neat pans and shop i worked for we copied an original including all internal tubing and 2 stage pump . think we made 3 0r 4 of them. some of the originals had oil drains from valve covers going to fittings on back of pan .
The best advice is to just hang it on the wall and buy a new one.
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on April 06, 2022, 08:20:51 PM
The best advice is to just hang it on the wall and buy a new one.
Roy
That could be good advice, I know I plan on running one on my 1969 BOSS 302. But none of mine are that rusty.
However for now the 1970 BOSS has moved ahead of the 1969 due to the special project status of the engine build.
John