Hi guys,
Currently there are two auctions on Ebay for 65/66 Pitman and Idler arms. These are presented as being assembly line
parts and priced accordingly. I have checked these out and believe they are very early reproductions.
In fact, I used to own an idler arm just like it. Bought it from a vendor's catalog. Many years ago, I found a NOS
in the Ford box and the markings match the one on my original Pitman arm. Later on, I found another original Pitman arm
which I have as a spare.
I wrote to the seller but got no answer.
Texas Swede
You may want to put a link to the auctions so others can know which ones you are concerned about.
Hi Bob,
Just search on NOS 65/66 Pitman and Idler arms respectively,
Texas Swede
Looks like the items are being sold by http://www.allclassicmustang.com/contactallclassicmotors.html of North Dakota. Anyone familiar with this business? 8)
JD Larson has been in business a long time.
I think these are the auctions Bo is referring to, the seller is JD Larson...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294137737481 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/294137737481)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294126089864 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/294126089864)
I've also wondered about these as well, are they repops or perhaps later Ford service parts? They do have the correct XRR casting numbers and a Ford logo. OE arms have the XRR numbers in different locations and have a FoMoCo logo, either oval (early) or rectangular (later). At least as late as the mid 1990's you could get the arms shown in the auctions from Branda and others.
Dave
Are you certain any of the repros had the Ford trademark ?
If I don't recall wrong, the oval logo on the early repos had Ford instead of FoMoCo within.
As Dave said they were placed on a different side and the logo closer to the middle than the originals.
Before I found an NOS Idler Arm, I did a lot of research into this matter and Howard was nice to crawl under both his cars and take pictures.
Texas Swede
Quote from: Bob Gaines on June 07, 2022, 09:26:09 PM
Are you certain any of the repros had the Ford trademark ?
Not at all, that's why I'm hoping to get clarification. I've always assumed the arms Bo mentions, like those listed in the ebay auctions above, were repops. But since they do have the correct XRR engineering numbers and do have a Ford logo, is it possible they are legit Ford service parts?
Dave,
I bought a repo Idler arm around 1989-90 and used it until I found the NOS. Because of the lack of right to use
the FoMoCo the manufacturer, who's name I have forgot they had to put Ford within the oval instead.
The seal should be a C4ZA-3A196-A on an original. There is a picture on the Ebay showing the latter part of the number
but the C4 is not showing. The number on the repo I bought had a D7 or something but the rest of the numbers matched.
Sending some pictures of the NOS. I will try to find the name of the repo manufacturer.
Texas Swede
Hi Bo,
Thanks for the info and photos, I also bought one with a Ford trademark from Branda in 1995 (found the receipt), but have also seen those listed for sale as NOS. Don't think any of the current repops have it.
On your NOS photo....does the oval trademark logo say Ford or FoMoCo inside?
Thanks,
Dave
Food for thought Tony Branda frequently ended up with genuine overstock parts that he sold. I am not saying that is what you bought but just because it came from Branda doesn't automatically mean it is reproduction. Also Tony RIP didn't always know the difference between assemblyline and replacement. It was seldom that a parts MFG would risk litigation for bootlegging a Ford part. This was before Fords licensing of reproduction replacement part . All of the idler and pitman arm I have ever seen or heard of were not marked with anything looking like what was on assemblyline but that is just me.
Dave,
Both the NOS Idler arm and original Pitman arm have a FoMoCo within the oval. One thing that differs with the repo is the
originals have much less distinctive markings. like the XRR than the repos. Checked the pictures I got from Howard many years ago and the original on his car #350 matches exactly with the ones I have.
Texas Swede
My NOS pieces are same as Bo's.
Quote from: texas swede on June 09, 2022, 11:08:56 AM
Dave,
Both the NOS Idler arm and original Pitman arm have a FoMoCo within the oval. One thing that differs with the repo is the
originals have much less distinctive markings. like the XRR than the repos. Checked the pictures I got from Howard many years ago and the original on his car #350 matches exactly with the ones I have.
Texas Swede
We had a thread on this on forum 1.0 from memory. I'll try find pics I saved but I remember that Bo
Looked through some of my pictures and came up with these two versions. One with Ford oval and hardness test looking divot mid way on the top surface (once mounted) of the arm. On the version without the oval the casting numbers are not as crisp and nice as the oval version unless they have been exposed to heavy rust.
At least the upper picture with the oval appears to have Ford printed in the oval
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-090622155828-174201344.jpeg)
And another pair. In the top oval example you can make out pretty clearly a capital F in a circle to the right of the engineering number
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-090622160827-174212028.jpeg)
Quote from: J_Speegle on June 09, 2022, 04:02:10 PM
Looked through some of my pictures and came up with these two versions. One with Ford oval and hardness test looking divot mid way on the top surface (once mounted) of the arm. On the version without the oval the casting numbers are not as crisp and nice as the oval version unless they have been exposed to heavy rust.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-090622155828-174201344.jpeg)
And another pair. In the top oval example you can make out pretty clearly a capital F in a circle to the right of the engineering number
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-090622160827-174212028.jpeg)
I would submit that the picture without the Ford trademark is a aftermarket version .
When did reproduction first become available? The lower version has at least been found on one car that was in and is in storage since 73. Hard to believe there was a market or need from reproduction then given the availability of NOS at the time Just reporting
For pitman arms I found three different versions. Appears that these represent different vendors that supplied them to Ford/Shelby
Top - Engineering number - oval - large identifier
Middle - Engineering number - oval - small circle with possible an 8 or B inside. Similar to the pattern shown in one of the idler arms above
Bottom - Looks like possible a small oval - engineering number - rest is not visible
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-090622165121-17424907.jpeg)
Using Jeff's idler arm photos as a reference, IMO the top arms are what we're discussing as potentially being repops, the XRR engineering numbers are more pronounced and the Ford trademark logo is next to the engineering number, both on the bottom of the arm. The arm I bought from Branda in 1995 is identical to the arm in Jeff's top photo, I recall seeing these in the Branda catalog as early as ~1987. I believe the bottom arms in Jeff's photos are original and match the arm shown below which is a later 66 original arm. The XRR numbers are not nearly as crisp and the trademark logo, in this case a block FoMoCo, is on the opposite side, on top of the arm. From what I've observed 65 arms have an oval FoMoCo logo and 66's have the block FoMoCo, not sure exactly when the change occurred or how gradual it was.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/236-090622184943.jpeg)
Will look to see if I have or can get a clear picture of the lower version from the other side to see if those have the square FoMoCo design. One of those lower examples is from a 66 in the low "teens". Believe the other was loose
When I have time I'll go through the individual car pictures and see if there are more
Quote from: J_Speegle on June 09, 2022, 04:33:40 PM
When did reproduction first become available? The lower version has at least been found on one car that was in and is in storage since 73. Hard to believe there was a market or need from reproduction then given the availability of NOS at the time Just reporting
It has been my observation that if a part that typically carried a Ford trademark does did not have the trade mark that it is more likely to be a repro then genuine Ford. MFG's did not want the litigation that bootleg Ford parts carried plus a Ford marked part was not a issue that many cared about until recent years. The many un marked reproduction parts compared to their genuine counter part then and now support that observation. It wasn't until the last decade or so did Ford Licensing make it practical for small run parts to carry the trade mark. It was at least mid to later 70's when Branda offered a 65/66 GT350 idler and pitman set at least in the mid to later 70's when a family member order a set from Branda for his car . I helped install them. I first ordered a set myself in the late 70's early 80's. I can't say if they were Ford or repro because that trademark aspect was not relevant to me at that time. I do know that Branda sold Idler pitman arm sets without proper markings and Ford trademarks at some point because I have bought them in the late 80's early 90's and was aware. I can't comment on the appearance of current offerings as it has been 15 -20 years since I have sourced any from Branda .
As I stated above, one way to separate a repo idler arm from an original is the number on the rubber seal.
Repo D7.... and original C4....
Texas Swede
Got an answer back via Ebay from JD Larson where he said he didn't agree with my comments and consequently won't change
the auction. He never commented on the D7 versa C4 on the rubber seal.
Texas Swede
Quote from: texas swede on June 09, 2022, 11:41:46 PM
As I stated above, one way to separate a repo idler arm from an original is the number on the rubber seal.
Repo D7.... and original C4....
Texas Swede
The only challenge with the seal is that it's not connected to the idler arm in a permanent way and could always be swapped out. Its helpful but not determinate IMHO. Agree that that one detail does make up the complete assemble as does the bracket and other hardware
I agree Jeff, but all repo idler arms I have seen and owned have had the D7 seal and all originals have the C4.
A person paying almost $1000 for a repo set makes me sad.
Texas Swede
Got curious and checked the Branda idler arm I bought in 1995, the seal does have "D7DC-3A196-AA" molded into it. Interesting that the arm JD Larson was selling on ebay, which is now sold, has a seal marked "ZA-3A196-A", so possibly that has a C4ZA-3A196-A seal where the C4 is very faint?
Also, the OE idler arm photo I posted in reply #19 has a seal with no numbers at all, I said it was from a later 66, but checked my notes and it's actually off a car in the 300's, but is identical to the original arm for 6S1757.
Another example of the weak casting of the divot version. Not the results of rusting. Square FoMoCo and divot or test mark highlighted. Interesting that this one has the divot or test mark on the top side of the arm with the Fomoco square casting
No number on the boot at the center link end. Must have been changed out when they added somewhat popular Moog greasable (s?) ball bearing kit when the car was fairly new. That kit is shown installed in the lower right in the picture below
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-110622141211-174252058.jpeg)
Not to get too far off thread but here is a picture of the kit from a current Ebay auction/ Just in case someone runs across one fo these and doesn't know what it is
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-110622143132-17426706.jpeg)
Just a note the " divot " is from a Brinell hardness test. You see them on crank shafts flywheels and other parts and not just in the automotive industry.
Rodney
Quote from: KR500 on June 11, 2022, 03:44:22 PM
Just a note the " divot " is from a Brinell hardness test. You see them on crank shafts flywheels and other parts and not just in the automotive industry.
Rodney
That is what I thought also but the surfaces (inside it) were not as smooth as some others I have. Maybe because they didn't grind the spot before they tested the spot like other parts like spindle. Did forget the name of the test - thanks
Hi again,
Went through all the old "The Marque" and "Shelby American" and the first time a repo of Quick Steering kit was mentioned was in "The Marque" from April-May 1978 by Maier Racing in California. They said they had found a company that could reproduce these kits and asked for interests to buy a kit at $69.95. That would match the D7 on the rubber seal.
Can't find my old Maier catalog though.
Texas Swede
Coming back to this thread for some clarity and also to add what I put together on idler arms in general.
Reading thru this thread is a bit confusing. I assume the term everyone is using as "repo" is actually a service replacement sold thru Ford or resellers? To me a repo is something sold by NAPA or some other parts place. Just wanted to be clear on that point.
Im attaching photos here of Ford service pieces I have on my shelf. These do have the D7 boots on them as noted in this thread and you see the Ford oval logo which to me is symbolic of replacement parts made in the 70s and thereafter. I personally believe the original idler arms had a square FoMoCo logo but think its probably too hard to 100% prove or disprove that with as many known original cars we have now as references.
I also think the original idler arms casting was very faint opposed to the service replacements that has much more crisp casting in the case of the idler arms.
Adding some photos.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52562913383_25d54510c4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o5NETi)20221213_203444 (https://flic.kr/p/2o5NETi) by Marcus Anghel (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154714213@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52562664489_e3ec206117_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o5MoU2)20221213_203501 (https://flic.kr/p/2o5MoU2) by Marcus Anghel (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154714213@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52561921472_0ae85f2f0a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o5HA2o)20221213_203525 (https://flic.kr/p/2o5HA2o) by Marcus Anghel (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154714213@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52562377661_ed631d8ed4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o5KVCH)20221213_203719 (https://flic.kr/p/2o5KVCH) by Marcus Anghel (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154714213@N02/), on Flickr
This is the write up on idler arms I put together that has a section on the Shelby idler arms as well....trying to tie it all together.
https://xnm126.a2cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Idler-Arms.pdf (https://xnm126.a2cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Idler-Arms.pdf)
Nice job Marcus
Marcus,
In my experience, original 65 Idler Arms and Pitman Arms have FoMoCo within an oval and 66 have FoMoCo but within a rectangle instead.
The 65 types are very difficult to see but I have an extra Pitman Arm and just checked with a magnifying glass
Texas Swede
Quote from: texas swede on December 14, 2022, 09:50:00 AM
Marcus,
In my experience, original 65 Idler Arms and Pitman Arms have FoMoCo within an oval and 66 have FoMoCo but within a rectangle instead.
The 65 types are very difficult to see but I have an extra Pitman Arm and just checked with a magnifying glass
Texas Swede
Good eye Bo . It has been awhile since thinking about that. I had forgotten this detail until you brought it up.
Im just going to throw this out here to discuss....
We know that Ford changed from a square FoMoCo logo on parts and packaging some time during the late 60's...but not exactly sure when (69?). For sure we know that if you look at a part from 1960 you expect a square logo, and if you look at a part from 1980 you see a round/oval logo. So there was a change.
So I am just curious on the use of a Ford oval in 1965 on original assembly line parts. I dont see that being used on other parts or packages in that time period unless Im missing something?
Quote from: anghelrestorations on December 13, 2022, 11:49:14 PM
Coming back to this thread for some clarity and also to add what I put together on idler arms in general.
Reading thru this thread is a bit confusing. I assume the term everyone is using as "repo" is actually a service replacement sold thru Ford or resellers? To me a repo is something sold by NAPA or some other parts place. Just wanted to be clear on that point.
That is the fundamental question.....are the idler (or pitman) arms with an oval Ford (NOT FoMoCo) logo that is also adjacent to the XRR engineering number repops or service parts? Maybe even a combination of both where someone copied a service part and rolled the dice on including the Ford trademark? From my experience I can only say the idler arm I bought from Branda in 1995, which I still have, was considered to be a repop at that time. Not sure why I thought that, maybe something in the 1995 Branda catalog indicated that, or possibly something I read/heard like Bo mentioned in reply #30. Possibly they are all service parts and Branda was selling genuine overstock parts as Bob mentions in reply #11. One thing for sure, they are all showing up for sale as NOS parts now, some even as assemblyline parts. Here's one currently on ebay, https://www.ebay.com/itm/285066517724, out of curiosity I emailed the seller asking for any numbers on the rubber seal, it does have a D7DC-3A196-AA.
As far as the oval Ford logo being used in 1965, I have not seen that either, oval FoMoCo-Yes, oval Ford-No. From my limited observations oval FoMoCo was an earlier thing, up to ~mid 60's, square FoMoCo later, ~mid 60's to at least 1970 or so. I personally don't recall seeing an oval Ford logo on any 60's parts
The email and pictures I got from Howard Pardee many years ago, showed the original Idler arm on 5S350 to be the FoMoCo
within an oval and his R-model 5R095 to be FoMoCo within a rectangle. Howard wasn't sure this arm was original or not but
maybe the R-model was finished later, or the arm had been changed during its racing history.
Texas Swede
just for consideration, D7DC-3A196-AA is a Granada part from 1977.
Granada would be the last of the Fairlane / Falcon style steering system platforms as the next generation platforms were Fox body platform rack & pinion steering.
regards
jim p
Some information here related to Ford using the trademark symbol on their parts. Ford first registered the FoMoCo trademark symbol in 1948 with the US Patent and Trademark Offices.
If you look at any actual Ford drawing of a part (see below) you will see reference to a trademark and the location on the part, but the style is not specified. So for sure there is no hard black and white cut off date when all parts Ford was using went from one style to the next. It was a gradual transition.
Ford had three styles they were using on parts in the 1960s:
FoMoCo in an oval
FoMoCo in a rectangle
Ford in an oval.
If you look at different parts and different years you will find a mix, but for sure Ford was headed to the Ford in an oval trademark symbol at the end of the 1960s and going in to the 1970's.
For what we are talking about here it would not make much sense for Ford to change the tooling from 1965 to 1966 just to change the Ford trademark symbol if nothing actually changed with the part from one year to the next. That would not make sense to change tooling just for a different trademark symbol.
For the discussion of idlers and what I put together I am going to change the wording to say original idlers for 65/66 would have either a FoMoCo or Ford trademark symbol since at this point its probably impossible to prove one way or the other...but hopefully covers it for everyone here.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52574817254_a9771fc8a0_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o6RFus)2022-12-19_16-39-23 (https://flic.kr/p/2o6RFus) by Marcus Anghel (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154714213@N02/), on Flickr
Marcus ,you should probably clarify that FOMOCO in the oval was typically in cursive script where as FOMOCO in the rectangle was block letters.
To summarize this discussion strictly for 65-66 GT350 idler arms, there appears to be 3 versions we are talking about:
#1 - Oval FOMOCO script logo on top of arm, XXR engineering number on bottom of arm.
#2 - Rectangle Block FOMOCO logo on top of arm, XXR engineering number on bottom of arm.
#3 - Oval FORD script logo and XRR engineering number both on bottom of arm.
IMO it is important if at all possible to identify assembly line arms from service parts. From my observations...Version #1 is an assembly line part primarily on 65 GT350 with possible overlap on early 66 GT350. Version #2 is an assembly line part primarily on 66 GT350 with possible overlap on late 65 GT350. If the consensus is version #3 is a legit Ford part, is there any evidence it is also an assembly line arm? What have others observed?
Just hoping to bring some clarity to this subject.
Just for a quick visual reference adding exactly what the different style logos look like here. Although these are not on idler arms it gives an example of each.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52576134597_62fc96e0ed_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2o6Yr6g)FoMoCo logo (https://flic.kr/p/2o6Yr6g) by Marcus Anghel (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154714213@N02/), on Flickr
Hi Dave,
In your post under item #1 you say that the FoMoCo within an oval is on top of arm and the XRR is on bottom.
Both Idler and Pitman arms on my car have both on top.
Texas Swede
Hi Bo,
Thanks for the clarification, haven't seen that version. Your NOS idler arm shown in reply #9 is like version #1 with Oval FOMOCO script logo on top of arm, XXR engineering number on bottom of arm correct?
My original pitman arm does have both the FOMOCO logo (oval script) and engineering number on top.
Thanks,
Dave
Hi Dave,
You are correct. I looked at my spare Pitman arm only. Hope you and your wife are safe in this bad weather.
This morning I took my wife's car to our excellent mechanic (he is from Iraq) and had the anti-freeze replaced
just an hour before the storm hit North Texas.
Merry Christmas to you.
Texas Swede
Hi Bo,
Thanks, Merry Christmas to you and Aila too! Stay safe!
Dave