Ok lets go from there
1967 GT500 with a freezed engine in 1968 that became a 427 Sideoiler in 70/71 but all parts around the engine were saved now thinking about to do something new. What would you do and why.
Options are
-427 Shelby All Aluminum FE Sideoiler Engine with Shelby Heads etc. but original 427 $ Crankshaft to have the correct stroke and use of the original intake, carbs, distributor, covers, and so on etc.
-428 PI original like in 67
-427 sidoiler iron block like its now in it with the original GT5oo components around
What will be more worth at the end with the history of the freezed engine in 68 and change to a 427 in 70/71
Locate the correct PI A scratch block.... GT heads.... GT exhaust manifolds....428 crank.... rods....pistons...etc.
when you have all the correct parts. and are ready to put it back to stock original....then you can sell the 427 side oiler...
use the money to machine & assemble ...that is where it will be worth the most money....plus. you can enjoy driving the car around till you are ready... 8) that is..if the car is currently running with the 427...
Or...
Yes, build that correct motor, and once complete, seal it in a bag, and store it.
Then...
Build a nice stroker FE with good aluminum heads, low RPM torque cam, make it look original, and drive it.
Wow great question
We considered this option once upon a time, what killed the thought?
To much money, antiquated suspension and brakes ( more money burned )
At the end of the day some late model cars will still skunk you
-427 Shelby All Aluminum FE Sideoiler Engine with Shelby Heads etc. but original 427 $ Crankshaft to have the correct stroke and use of the original intake, carbs, distributor, covers, and so on etc.
What we actually did, rebuilt the original 428, ported the heads and intake. Used a larger Holley and a roller cam.
-428 PI original like in 67
Work with what you have, if we would have had this we would hace used this with some tweaks mentioned above. Let the next owner worry about originality
-427 sidoiler iron block like its now in it with the original GT5oo components around
I've been waiting all these years to see somebody cut into the inner fenders and install a SOHC.
Quote from: Bigfoot on October 17, 2022, 07:00:05 PM
I've been waiting all these years to see somebody cut into the inner fenders and install a SOHC.
A few years ago a friend had a car in his shop that had the shock towers cut out from a previous SOHC installation . So it has been done more then once no doubt. The owner wanted it back stock . It was quite a job besides the already bumper to bumper concours restoration.The car ended up getting a gold in MCA trailered class.
If it were mine I would build as close to an original engine as possible. Lots of fun to drive and worth the most at your estate sale.
ok the answers are more exiting than I thought they would be. A big + for the 427 is that its really a good reving engine that the PI never will be when its close to stock. I really like the 427´s and also the shelby aluminum ones. Yes a PI would be correct that is true. But with the known history of the car that the block was gone in 68 and a 427 was installed I´m not sure what to do. As the 427 was sitting in the car since 70/71.
Quote from: Kent on October 18, 2022, 03:38:53 AM
ok the answers are more exiting than I thought they would be. A big + for the 427 is that its really a good reving engine that the PI never will be when its close to stock. I really like the 427´s and also the shelby aluminum ones. Yes a PI would be correct that is true. But with the known history of the car that the block was gone in 68 and a 427 was installed I´m not sure what to do. As the 427 was sitting in the car since 70/71.
It sounds like you want to justify the 427 . ;) Now days the highest value is typically in stock form. It really doesn't matter technically if the replacement engine was installed in 1970 ,1980,1990 etc. because it is still a replacement engine . A good engine but replacement all the same . At least in the context of which you asked which is the highest resale value.Best of luck with a hard decision.
Don't kniw about being stock brings the most money. I see the mustang rest mods pull in buckets if cash
The issue is that no Shelby owner (I think) will pull the trigger and rest mod one. Imagine a Shelby completely restomodded, a mustang with a Shelby pedigree, maybe big dollars
I would not do it
Yes Bob your are right, to justify the 427 aluminum would be nice. But as I really like original as you do I´m really in a back and forth situation. 427´s are great engines but the 428 PI in all original with perfect measurements etc and some work done to it are also very strong, nice sounding and reliable engines.
And I have to spent less money on a 428 PI compared to the 427 aluminum engine. But to save a lot of weight with all aluminum is also something that got me for driving it. I know that from my drag fastback which has an all aluminum engine and its such a difference in a mustang.
Really difficult its like sandwich or steak I like both and if I have to choose what I eat for the rest of my life I wouldn't know.
Why not build a correct looking, proper 428 with some modest modifications?
This is what I did: Correct block and heads, ported the heads, mild mechanical camshaft(gives good vacuum), CJ manifolds.
Engine made 420 HP and 460 TQ. It looks and sounds like a stock 428. Runs as good as I need for a restored '67 GT500.
Mike C
Quote from: FL SAAC on October 18, 2022, 12:00:16 PM
Don't kniw about being stock brings the most money. I see the mustang rest mods pull in buckets if cash
The issue is that no Shelby owner (I think) will pull the trigger and rest mod one. Imagine a Shelby completely restomodded, a mustang with a Shelby pedigree, maybe big dollars
Resto mods pull the money because of the labor put into them and the fact that most people prefer to drive a car with the ease of EFI and AC. There are already Restomod "Shelbys" they're called Eleanor.
The first thing the owner needs to decide is how he will use his car. Putting around town and the occasional show - go stock with the right date castings etc. That will payoff when it's finally sold.
At the far end if he wants to carve up some twisty roads and play at track day then an all aluminum FE with 500+ hp is the way to go. Since it lacks the original engine already a Shelby FE dressed as a 67 may be acceptable and add some value at sale time. https://www.shelbyengines.com/collections/shelby-fe-engines
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on October 19, 2022, 01:16:08 PM
At the far end if he wants to carve up some twisty roads and play at track day then an all aluminum FE with 500+ hp is the way to go. Since it lacks the original engine already a Shelby FE dressed as a 67 may be acceptable and add some value at sale time. https://www.shelbyengines.com/collections/shelby-fe-engines
That's what I thought build a shelby fe but with original intake, carbs, ignition etc. should really look awesome and it should make a lot of fun. But then I don't know if the 9" with just 31 spline will survive this. Its really a tough decision to make.
Quote from: Cobrask8 on October 17, 2022, 05:22:39 PM
Or...
Yes, build that correct motor, and once complete, seal it in a bag, and store it.
Then...
Build a nice stroker FE with good aluminum heads, low RPM torque cam, make it look original, and drive it.
I pick this option. 9" with 31 spline axles will be fine with street tires, slicks could be a problem!
Quote from: Kent on October 19, 2022, 02:19:31 PM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on October 19, 2022, 01:16:08 PM
At the far end if he wants to carve up some twisty roads and play at track day then an all aluminum FE with 500+ hp is the way to go. Since it lacks the original engine already a Shelby FE dressed as a 67 may be acceptable and add some value at sale time. https://www.shelbyengines.com/collections/shelby-fe-engines
That's what I thought build a shelby fe but with original intake, carbs, ignition etc. should really look awesome and it should make a lot of fun. But then I don't know if the 9" with just 31 spline will survive this. Its really a tough decision to make.
The 9" will be fine you can't get enough tire in the stock wheel well to get enough traction to break it.
Kent- It really is not that difficult of a question to ask yourself. Most SHELBYS dont have their born with engines so would you like to drive something that sounds like your vacuum cleaner when driving it or would you prefer the wail of a highly tuned Big Block echoing off the buildings or canyon walls, I compare it to wanting a Cobra..... A small block 289 is fun- But a 427 SC is breathtaking, I would choose the latter. Here is a picture of mine with a 427 medium riser, 99 percent of people dont know the difference or really care, but what they do like, is going for a ride and screaming like a girl SLOW DOWN/SLOW DOWN!
Considering the fact that there is a limit to how much power you can actually put on the ground in a "Mustang chassis", astronomical numbers seem to be somewhat of a lip service to me?
IF we are talking around stock CI displacements, then a reworked 428 PI is not so much out of the question.
Essentially the basis for a 427 top end is already there. Certainly there is virtually no difference in torque output.
The criticism of the PI is in the under camming of it and the inherent weakness of the stock connecting rods.
I'm getting 500hp out of my 347. If you can't get that out of a 428 then you must be hanging out with the daily riders of the short bus?
Put some good valves, springs and cam in the top end. Put a set of Hooker headers in it and leave it dressed as a '67 GT500 should be.
It is quite a handful to deal with at that.
If you want to play virtual HP games and why would you? You can play that with Fantasy Football amongst other things.
Put the money into the internal performance parts that you don't see. The thing is plenty fast and lethal that way. Let the guys with the aluminum everything and the titanium gonads show their cars at the local shows and impress the crap out of the kiddies while you drive your 500.
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 20, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
Considering the fact that there is a limit to how much power you can actually put on the ground in a "Mustang chassis", astronomical numbers seem to be somewhat of a lip service to me?
IF we are talking around stock CI displacements, then a reworked 428 PI is not so much out of the question.
Essentially the basis for a 427 top end is already there. Certainly there is virtually no difference in torque output.
The criticism of the PI is in the under camming of it and the inherent weakness of the stock connecting rods.
I'm getting 500hp out of my 347. If you can't get that out of a 428 then you must be hanging out with the daily riders of the short bus?
Put some good valves, springs and cam in the top end. Put a set of Hooker headers in it and leave it dressed as a '67 GT500 should be.
It is quite a handful to deal with at that.
If you want to play virtual HP games and why would you? You can play that with Fantasy Football amongst other things.
Put the money into the internal performance parts that you don't see. The thing is plenty fast and lethal that way. Let the guys with the aluminum everything and the titanium gonads show their cars at the local shows and impress the crap out of the kiddies while you drive your 500.
+ 1 all that power being transferred through the antique drive train and chassis creates havoc on all parts.
Broke a brand new motor mount, that triggered a broken fan shroud, that bent a fan and warped the fan clutch. Out back made one tire lumpy and the other shredded into pieces. About $2K in parts and repairs, just is not worth it.
Start it, let it kackle and go for a nice cruise, enjoy your day
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 20, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
Considering the fact that there is a limit to how much power you can actually put on the ground in a "Mustang chassis", astronomical numbers seem to be somewhat of a lip service to me?
IF we are talking around stock CI displacements, then a reworked 428 PI is not so much out of the question.
Essentially the basis for a 427 top end is already there. Certainly there is virtually no difference in torque output.
The criticism of the PI is in the under camming of it and the inherent weakness of the stock connecting rods.
I'm getting 500hp out of my 347. If you can't get that out of a 428 then you must be hanging out with the daily riders of the short bus?
Put some good valves, springs and cam in the top end. Put a set of Hooker headers in it and leave it dressed as a '67 GT500 should be.
It is quite a handful to deal with at that.
If you want to play virtual HP games and why would you? You can play that with Fantasy Football amongst other things.
Put the money into the internal performance parts that you don't see. The thing is plenty fast and lethal that way. Let the guys with the aluminum everything and the titanium gonads show their cars at the local shows and impress the crap out of the kiddies while you drive your 500.
500 horse out of a 347 - what heads, cam, compression, intake and exhaust are you running?
IF it was mine, I would keep it an FE of course. So, in would go a nice stroker 428. Alum heads, CJ exhausts, Tunnel Wedge intake , hyd roller cam, etc.
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 10:27:09 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 20, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
Considering the fact that there is a limit to how much power you can actually put on the ground in a "Mustang chassis", astronomical numbers seem to be somewhat of a lip service to me?
IF we are talking around stock CI displacements, then a reworked 428 PI is not so much out of the question.
Essentially the basis for a 427 top end is already there. Certainly there is virtually no difference in torque output.
The criticism of the PI is in the under camming of it and the inherent weakness of the stock connecting rods.
I'm getting 500hp out of my 347. If you can't get that out of a 428 then you must be hanging out with the daily riders of the short bus?
Put some good valves, springs and cam in the top end. Put a set of Hooker headers in it and leave it dressed as a '67 GT500 should be.
It is quite a handful to deal with at that.
If you want to play virtual HP games and why would you? You can play that with Fantasy Football amongst other things.
Put the money into the internal performance parts that you don't see. The thing is plenty fast and lethal that way. Let the guys with the aluminum everything and the titanium gonads show their cars at the local shows and impress the crap out of the kiddies while you drive your 500.
500 horse out of a 347 - what heads, cam, compression, intake and exhaust are you running?
Ah! How much you wanna' pay?
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 20, 2022, 11:31:17 AM
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 10:27:09 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 20, 2022, 09:27:54 AM
Considering the fact that there is a limit to how much power you can actually put on the ground in a "Mustang chassis", astronomical numbers seem to be somewhat of a lip service to me?
IF we are talking around stock CI displacements, then a reworked 428 PI is not so much out of the question.
Essentially the basis for a 427 top end is already there. Certainly there is virtually no difference in torque output.
The criticism of the PI is in the under camming of it and the inherent weakness of the stock connecting rods.
I'm getting 500hp out of my 347. If you can't get that out of a 428 then you must be hanging out with the daily riders of the short bus?
Put some good valves, springs and cam in the top end. Put a set of Hooker headers in it and leave it dressed as a '67 GT500 should be.
It is quite a handful to deal with at that.
If you want to play virtual HP games and why would you? You can play that with Fantasy Football amongst other things.
Put the money into the internal performance parts that you don't see. The thing is plenty fast and lethal that way. Let the guys with the aluminum everything and the titanium gonads show their cars at the local shows and impress the crap out of the kiddies while you drive your 500.
500 horse out of a 347 - what heads, cam, compression, intake and exhaust are you running?
Ah! How much you wanna' pay?
You still haven't answered the question.
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 10:27:09 AM500 horse out of a 347 - what heads, cam, compression, intake and exhaust are you running?
Big HP in todays engines is almost too easy. https://www.shelbyengines.com/collections/shelby-289-engines/products/aluminum-289-364ci-stage-i-500hp
Paint it blue and no one will know.
My 310" Cleveland cranks out 650 @ 7,800 it was built in 85 with all the best parts and is alive and well today..
Carrillo rods
SVO A3 aluminum heads
Roller rockers – Crower stainless
Moroso Stud Girdle
Steel billet crank
Olson dry sump pan
Titanium valve keepers
Pistons – Venolia
Motorsport 351 pillow NASCAR block
Steel billet crank
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on October 20, 2022, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 10:27:09 AM500 horse out of a 347 - what heads, cam, compression, intake and exhaust are you running?
Big HP in todays engines is almost too easy. https://www.shelbyengines.com/collections/shelby-289-engines/products/aluminum-289-364ci-stage-i-500hp
Paint it blue and no one will know.
My 310" Cleveland cranks out 650 @ 7,800 it was built in 85 with all the best parts and is alive and well today..
Carrillo rods
SVO A3 aluminum heads
Roller rockers – Crower stainless
Moroso Stud Girdle
Steel billet crank
Olson dry sump pan
Titanium valve keepers
Pistons – Venolia
Motorsport 351 pillow NASCAR block
Steel billet crank
Bench racing lives on ;D - Everyone is cruising around at 7,800 rpm in their 1000 hp mustang - on radial tires and doing 10 second passes...
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 01:49:21 PM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on October 20, 2022, 01:35:53 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 10:27:09 AM500 horse out of a 347 - what heads, cam, compression, intake and exhaust are you running?
Big HP in todays engines is almost too easy. https://www.shelbyengines.com/collections/shelby-289-engines/products/aluminum-289-364ci-stage-i-500hp
Paint it blue and no one will know.
My 310" Cleveland cranks out 650 @ 7,800 it was built in 85 with all the best parts and is alive and well today..
Carrillo rods
SVO A3 aluminum heads
Roller rockers – Crower stainless
Moroso Stud Girdle
Steel billet crank
Olson dry sump pan
Titanium valve keepers
Pistons – Venolia
Motorsport 351 pillow NASCAR block
Steel billet crank
Bench racing lives on ;D - Everyone is cruising around at 7,800 rpm in their 1000 hp mustang - on radial tires and doing 10 second passes...
Love it !
Both our 69s are solid high 13 second to 14 second travesties......lmao
Now the late models are another story
Oh go with what you have use the 427
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 01:49:21 PM
Bench racing lives on ;D - Everyone is cruising around at 7,800 rpm in their 1000 hp mustang - on radial tires and doing 10 second passes...
Sorry should have included a picture
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on October 20, 2022, 03:28:58 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 01:49:21 PM
Bench racing lives on ;D - Everyone is cruising around at 7,800 rpm in their 1000 hp mustang - on radial tires and doing 10 second passes...
Sorry should have included a picture
I believe that 427hunter was referring to the claim that a 347 made 500 HP...not a 'race car'.
Quote from: crossboss on October 20, 2022, 03:44:37 PM
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on October 20, 2022, 03:28:58 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 01:49:21 PM
Bench racing lives on ;D - Everyone is cruising around at 7,800 rpm in their 1000 hp mustang - on radial tires and doing 10 second passes...
Sorry should have included a picture
I believe that 427hunter was referring to the claim that a 347 made 500 HP...not a 'race car'.
Scott, why do I feel like we went back in time and are standing in the Super Shops parking lot.
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 03:50:58 PM
Scott, why do I feel like we went back in time and are standing in the Super Stupid Shops parking lot.
Fixed it for ya
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on October 20, 2022, 05:34:37 PM
Quote from: 427hunter on October 20, 2022, 03:50:58 PM
Scott, why do I feel like we went back in time and are standing in the Super Stupid Shops parking lot.
Fixed it for ya
Exactly! Same Stuff I used to hear back then.
Ok maybe I take the 428 PI again, I think its maybe the best decision as I never would race it so hard as I could. Yes its unbelievable how much hp you can get out of these mustang engines. My black shelby clone with the 408 and Paxton did the 0-100 in 3.2 seconds on toyo´s and 100-200 in 6.6 sec. my 68 drag fastback is much faster with just a 438 sb that thing is awesome.
I go with the 428 as I think its the best option to have it reliable and not overpowered and maybe I built another clone with a Sideoiler who knows what will happen in the next years.
so here the question who has a 428PI engine for me with heads.
this is the drag car, and this is on no prep with really a soft start
https://youtu.be/8z9QP4jEUjE
Thats the bumpiest roller coaster Drag strip I have ever seen... :' ( State side would not allow that at any sanctioned track. Looks like a good runner- ;)
The largest restriction you will have with building an FE is the timing on the camshafts.
In today's world you will find that on most US built v-8s, aftermarket camshafts will be with a 110 centerline and a built in 4 advance.
In order to use the capability of that timing, the exhaust system needs to be relatively nonrestrictive.
In ALL of the FORD FE heads, the exhaust ports on the heads ARE THE SAME.
They are restrictive. Many, but not all FE builders will recommend a cam profile with a centerline of around 113 degrees as a result.
Now the FE isn't the only Ford head to have an issue. The Cleveland exhaust ports as cast are pretty bad.
Back in the day, in Pro Stock racing, that problem was solved by radically modifying the iron heads exhaust ports by milling out a section large enough to insert a piece of aluminum bar stock that in effect extended the exhaust ports straight up.
At that point, all of a sudden 357's were making 800hp on the strip.
Exactly who's idea that was first doesn't really matter but Dyno Don Nicholson was the first one to be seen with it as I recall?
In my view, the bad FE exhaust port design is THE limiting factor in making big HP out of the engine.
Now there are a few aftermarket aluminum FE heads that I have seen that have improved the exhausts, but not to the extent that the Pro Stock Cleveland modification did.
Taking a somewhat educated guess as to what the bad FE ports do... you're missing out on something like 100 to 150hp sticking with them BUT there is no practical solution if you are running a Ford head, even a 'Cammer, has the same restriction in casting design.
I'm running the CompCams solid lifter with .587 lift and 110 centers with very early Hooker Headers. That's about as unrestrictive as you can make the engine without attempting to re-invent the wheel?
I'm also running BC-BD Holley's which it seems to like and even SEEMS to idle smoother with.
You can just fishtail anywhere and anytime that you want with this setup and you can absolutely act like a derelict Dodge Boy doughnut hole if you want to compete with stupidity on the street with them?
As far as, "is a 427 Ford block worth it?" My engine builder will no longer touch an original Ford 427 block. He out and out calls them crap. In explation to me, "they are just thin crappy castings".
HE says the 428 blocks are better and thicker castings, pointing out that FE blocks "evolve" step by step into better "beings" then the 427 blocks do. He reminds me that the purpose of the 427's was to be able to survive 7,000 rpm races for 500 miles. Period. End of story.
In his view they are more reputation then fact. Kind of like the "Headless Horseman" at Halloween time?
I stayed with a period correct 428 for the car, standard bore A scratch, stock crank with Eagle h-beam rods. Stock heads with CJ valves.
I can't go any faster anyway. My hands keep slipping off of that silly wood steering wheel while I'm holding on for life. Speed you see is all relative...and NONE of my relatives are allowed to drive the car.
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 21, 2022, 10:02:16 AM
My engine builder will no longer touch an original Ford 427 block. He out and out calls them crap. In explation to me, "they are just thin crappy castings".
HE says the 428 blocks are better and thicker castings, pointing out that FE blocks "evolve" step by step into better "beings" then the 427 blocks do.
Well I suppose in the world of things the 427's are somewhat light on the metal sum front, but then that's what they were suppose to be as intended and stated by Ford Motor Company as "thin-wall-castings"; this for the purpose of attempting to control the overall weight of the engine assembly. And this holds true for all of the FE's, and this functioned fine as delivered by the O.E.M., with no notable advantage really for any of them as can be witnessed by the interchangeability of the casting cores as practiced by Ford in the production of blocks over the decades. Yes, I know there are those who will swear that this block is better than that block, and yes there will be variations in the production runs, better and worse, and yes perhaps one will find a 390 block in which Ford used the 428 water-jacket cores in the casting process (see comment previously), one with the 'extra' reinforcement ribs in the mains and maybe one finds an FT 501 block or what every that may actually prove 'better', but they are all still "thin-wall-castings" and more of being the same than that of being significantly different ;)
The real problem is that this engineering is from the 1950's, the specific castings are at best from the 1970's, and since that time, and particularly the 427's which most often where acquired day one for some sort of 'hell-raising', and are pretty much beat to death by today. Then not to mention the public wants performance production sums of 'today' not of that 'back-then' hence the blocks are being subjected to power levels never intended, or even contemplated at that time, and as that which they were engineering for; and not to mention they've already been around the block a few times, bored out and reworked (salvaged) perhaps even had several lives, and now we want to compare them to some new product off the shelf? :o
Generally if the old casting is of sound state, preferably still of standard bore as acquired, never blown-up, basically only finishing off it's first or a kindly second life (unfortunately it seems most 427's are past their 9th! :o ) then pretty much any of them will support something less than 650 H.P., but beyond 700 H.P. any of them become a problem and at this point, yes, one should be looking at something other than an old production unit. :)
Just my observation! ::)
Scott.
Oh, and to the O.P.s' original question of what engine does the peanut gallery think he should put in his Shelby, well I would be in the camp of putting a period proper 428 P.I. w/ dual fours et cetera, for reasons already stated by others; but being I label myself as a somewhat "Day-Two" guy, it wouldn't necessarily be 100% stock inside :)
Scott.
Wow this thread went really good, interesting facts and a lot of knowledge. Yes the 428 with some mods is the way to go. Some more ideas are welcome but as I said there was really some great input on the last 3 sites.
Quote from: pbf777 on October 21, 2022, 02:17:58 PM
Oh, and to the O.P.s' original question of what engine does the peanut gallery think he should put in his Shelby, well I would be in the camp of putting a period proper 428 P.I. w/ dual fours et cetera, for reasons already stated by others; but being I label myself as a somewhat "Day-Two" guy, it wouldn't necessarily be 100% stock inside :)
Scott.
I won't tell! Trick away! ;D
(...a 427 Griffith coming sometime soon? :o)
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 21, 2022, 10:02:16 AM
Now the FE isn't the only Ford head to have an issue. The Cleveland exhaust ports as cast are pretty bad.
Back in the day, in Pro Stock racing, that problem was solved by radically modifying the iron heads exhaust ports by milling out a section large enough to insert a piece of aluminum bar stock that in effect extended the exhaust ports straight up.
I couldn't find any modified FE heads to the extent they did the Cleveland heads. Ford Motorsports A3 aluminum head had the biggest ports and also the high exhaust ports - they are the same exit shape and take regular headers the path is just straighter. Problem is they move the exhaust further out and you can't get it in an 65-66 without cutting the towers. I don't think I'd trust the modded head on a street or road race car. 1/4 mile only - IMHO.
But - it's Cleveland and there was only one Shelby built with a Cleveland and that was a 69 GT350. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdcBxuE1gZ0
Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on October 21, 2022, 05:39:43 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 21, 2022, 10:02:16 AM
Now the FE isn't the only Ford head to have an issue. The Cleveland exhaust ports as cast are pretty bad.
Back in the day, in Pro Stock racing, that problem was solved by radically modifying the iron heads exhaust ports by milling out a section large enough to insert a piece of aluminum bar stock that in effect extended the exhaust ports straight up.
I couldn't find any modified FE heads to the extent they did the Cleveland heads. Ford Motorsports A3 aluminum head had the biggest ports and also the high exhaust ports - they are the same exit shape and take regular headers the path is just straighter. Problem is they move the exhaust further out and you can't get it in an 65-66 without cutting the towers. I don't think I'd trust the modded head on a street or road race car. 1/4 mile only - IMHO.
But - it's Cleveland and there was only one Shelby built with a Cleveland and that was a 69 GT350. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdcBxuE1gZ0
I have A3's in my Pantera with 180 headers.
At one time I had a 351C in my 68 GT350. Those heads in that chassis are a tight fit BUT Jay Bittle built a "BIG TUBE" set of headers for it.
Then I had to wrestle with the Webers and it all became a "bah-humbug" setup in the Shelby for me.
No problem. With the advent of inexpensive 347 kits, the original 302 went back in with just a couple of little things changed. Little details. ;)
The Webers went on the Pantera with the A3 heads and a matching Hall "high port" Weber intake manifold.
So all is well here although I do remember Nicholson making a comment about his iron heads with the radically modified exhausts making "a lot more power" then the A3's (someone specifically asked him about that) BUT with him, you need to remember "gamesmanship" is part of what he did in attempting to intimidate the competition.
Great pictures of the modified heads.
A good set of Cleveland headers for a 68 Mustang.
They'd be too low on my car. The driver side header on mine goes over the bell housing. Then into a pair of 4" in 4" out Flowmasters on the passenger side. Originally they went out the side but were moved under the car to try to get it quiet enough for Laguna Seca.
I built these for my 68 drag fastback with the 438 Windsor
I didn't save a picture of the JBA headers, re: 351-c w/A3 heads in '68 Shelby. No such thing as a smart phone back then. I was dealing with Jay then and he said he built several sets so there are still some out there somewhere?
These are on my Pantera. Built by my "Buddy Stan" at FPA for Gary Hall. 2" primaries. If I listen carefully, I can still hear him moaning, cursing and throwing wrenches working on them. :o
The last time I spoke to him he started screaming at me on the phone about clearances for the clutch linkages and told me to get a hydraulic clutch and come into the real world. I keep watching the "Network News" at night waiting for him to appear after killing a dozen people who were walking by with their dogs.
It HAS been pointed out to me that sometimes I seem to be needlessly harsh to others. It probably has to do with being screamed at, items thrown at me and run out of the shop. It's an extensive list of the "Who's, who". I was just trying to be nice. It isn't an excuse, just an explanation. ::)
I gave up building headers after two sets. Both wound up weighing more then cast iron manifolds. I still can't weld worth a crap now.
Doug, the headers I posted are for a set of B351 heads both sides can be removed in 45 minutes also the bottoms of the collectors are above the bottom of the bell housing.
Back to the original question: Yes, in our cars, stock-correct will almost always bring more $ than modified.
But, to me, there's more to it than $. I have owned about 100 cars in my life, about 75 of which were classics in every condition from a basket case bb Vette to several concours near-perfect cars of many makes. I'm not a car flipper, and I rarely make money on a sale. So my advice comes not from what will it be worth at the end, but how do you want it to be at the end.
But, this only applies to me and people like me, who want "a bit better than stock performing" performance car. As had been correctly stated on the forum dozens of times, the stock Shelbys felt quick to us back in the day because, compared to most of the cars we'd see (a million Mustangs sold by end of 1966) we're not all that quick. Most things today will kick the performance azz of most anything from "back in the day" when comparing straight apples-to-apples.
How many of us "back in the day" boasted about having a stock car? Pretty much no one. We worked 2 or 3 crappy jobs in high school, college, so we'd have the $ to spend to make our cars quicker than stock.
I'm still of that mindset. A street/track Shelby with 50% more power, 100% better handling, and 150% better braking, is what I love today (keeping a Day Two vintage look) and what I get the most fun from. Because now it's become the car that in my memory from being a car-crazed kid/teenager I dreamed of. I built my KR (its original engine went kablooey long before I bought it in '82) with an all aluminum Shelby/Denbeste side-oiler, 468 cubes, hyd roller, and so forth. Idled kackly and went like hell, but also had well-sorted city drivability so no overheating, etc. I've had it on Willow and it was great. Then I drove it the 200+ miles home. That's how I like a classic performance car.
Remember those nights cruising the main drag in town? Mine was Van Nuys Bl, but the story was similar most everywhere: Stock sucked. In performance and image. (Unless your stock vehicle was a Cobra. But how often did we ever see one of those at the street races? Never.)
Do you also remember when someone would show up in a brand new whatever? The first question was always: What are you going to do first? Wheels/shifter/exhaust and then engine mods was a typical answer.
Not trying to start anything here. To each his hard-earned own. But for me, I've never had a concours car or perfect trailer queen that I really enjoyed. My screen name should be "Mister Day Two."
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 22, 2022, 03:43:47 PM
Quote from: Blackcar on October 22, 2022, 12:49:10 PM
Doug, the headers I posted are for a set of B351 heads both sides can be removed in 45 minutes also the bottoms of the collectors are above the bottom of the bell housing.
The A, B351 and C302 heads all mount the headers the same. The port sizes are different though.
Interesting header configuration that you have. Which year are they designed to fit and who made them?
I only saw one set of the Motorsport "high port heads" in a 65 Mustang chassis. Probably were A3's considering the date? It was an R model of all things and the owner had removed the original shock towers and installed a 67 set.
He was wrestling to make headers fit and this was before JBA decided to make a few sets to fit the set up although I can't swear that JBA's would fit a 65-6 chassis, just a 67-8.
No doubt that considering the availability of 331/347 kits now, a smarter set up to run would be a Boss 302 block with those heads and it would go a long way to solving many issues? For one thing, an 8.0 inch v 9.2 inch deck block so that helps IMMENSELY.
As I recall the 351-c block is about 35 pounds heavier then a 302 block and you feel that in the handling of the car.
In my 68 GT350, I'm running AFR 185 Windsor heads with a C60A 2x4 Holley intake, 302 block/347 cubes. Those heads have better flow numbers then stock B2 heads do.
So for me I created a perfect animal that is about 100 pounds lighter then a 351-c is and has enough power for me.
They were fit to a 68 Mustang built on the car by Kooks before they left Long Island to go to NC.
This car has an even more radical leave it alone following, so the easiest solution is to have the stocker when you go sell it, and the FUN engine to enjoy it with! After all what fun is a car that never gets driven!!!
Quote from: 427heaven on November 16, 2022, 08:03:16 PM
This car has an even more radical leave it alone following, so the easiest solution is to have the stocker when you go sell it, and the FUN engine to enjoy it with! After all what fun is a car that never gets driven!!!
I had a 63 Roadster - You even get to enjoy rear drum brakes and pretty poor handling too.
Since I dont own a COBRA..... The next best thing to get lost in the 60s is this for me, at least for the twisties.