I see engine builders that seem to do a lot of business marketing mostly on Ebay but I can't help but wonder if they can be trusted. Anybody have experience with either of these outfits? Other suggestions for a 331 or 347 long block for my R-model tribute?
Detroit Muscle Car Store
https://www.ebay.com/str/musclecarcrateengines?_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2563
Creb Engineering
https://www.ebay.com/itm/225184081102?hash=item346e0464ce:g:xbgAAOSw8W5abiNT
I've used ATK a couple times - good results. For a kit car / clone they are a good value.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/HPE-HP09 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/HPE-HP09)
I follow the Instagram page prestige_moto, which is Prestige Motorsports. They build some interesting combinations including a 427 smallblock.
www.prestigemoto.com
Cobra Automotive.
I would highly recommend Roger Williams. They built my engine and did a great job.
https://www.wpespeedshop.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAiJ5kXd0w0
Quote from: mlplunkett on November 16, 2022, 11:06:49 AM
I see engine builders that seem to do a lot of business marketing mostly on Ebay but I can't help but wonder if they can be trusted.
Not to be speaking of anyone specifically, but with a couple of decades of having customers delivering such for their projects, all I can say is: :o :P :( :'( ::) nuff said!
Scott.
Cobra Automotive!
zsrengines.com (http://zsrengines.com)
Zach is awesome and really one of the best engine builders I have ever found. My 438 is really the best build by another person engine I had so far.
I had a local shop build my motor for my FFR. A VERY healthy 331.
Good thing about staying local to you is that you can keep an eye on it as you go, and you can custom build to the way you like it, rather than have to accept someone else's package.
I found an exceptional shop local to me, and it's the best motor I have had between the frame rails. And, he was right there when I had a problem, and also quickly helped me when the motor ingested a washer, bending two valves.
My build is very straightforwards, solid, runs on pump gas, and the best is that I designed it.
My $.02
Dan
What about a Ford Racing crate engine? I think most of them have warranties.
Quote from: 1109RWHP on November 17, 2022, 06:25:40 PM
What about a Ford Racing crate engine?
Yes! I always suggest to our customers looking for an engine to check the offerings from Ford Performance (was Ford Racing before, before that Ford Motorsport ???) as these have proven to be good units with very little to complain about. I don't consider them to be "fully-prepared" race engines, but I sure have had many a customer treat them as such, and most have had amazingly good results with them! ;)
So if they happen to offer something that 's right up your alley, I always explain that: "I can sell you their (a true) "crate-engine" for less than it would cost me (buying the parts at W.D. and owning the machine shop! 8)) to build it! :o Unfortunately we make less profit from this sales approach, but then, I never claimed to be the smartest (or maybe the slickest ::)) salesman in the world! :(
And yes! Most have been available with a warranty. And it's a real warranty; not one of those like on the 'Flea-bay' examples, which I can assure you, again as witness to the tribulations of our customers in the past, that those warranties evaporate the moment you test them! :o
Scott.
Someone pointed out that the 289 timing chain cover (and associated water pump) looks different than the 302 cover. I see the difference visually between the 65 cover and the 67 302 cover. Are they interchangable? Will a 65 289 cover bolt up to the 302 roller block?
I'd suggest the Ford Racing balancer and 65 timing cover. The Ford Racing balancer is similar to the Hi-Po balancer in thickness and diameter, so a quick glance will look like a fully degreed R-Model balancer when painted black. The 65-timing cover will take a little bit of grinding for clearance when using the Ford Racing balancer. I also used the 65-aluminum water pump with the heater provisions tapped for plugs and used dummy rubber caps to look like the R-model. The 65-aluminum pump works OK, but I also used an Edelbrock water pump for the 65 to 67 HiPo and they run significantly cooler.
I'd suggest spending the money on something else for your replica than an old original fully degreed balancer. Perhaps a Fred Ballard button top fuel pump or a
SW 240A electric pump. Just my opinion.
Don
gt350bp
That's just the kind of input I'm looking for Don. So I need the timing cover for the factory aluminum water pump (C4AZ-6019-A)? And you're saying I'll get better cooling if I substitute the Edelbrock water pump for the factory aluminum water pump?
Got any advice on replicating the oil cooler?
Quote from: mlplunkett on December 03, 2022, 03:06:56 PM
That's just the kind of input I'm looking for Don. So I need the timing cover for the factory aluminum water pump (C4AZ-6019-A)? And you're saying I'll get better cooling if I substitute the Edelbrock water pump for the factory aluminum water pump?
Got any advice on replicating the oil cooler?
The Edelbrock waterpump is aluminum like the early 65 waterpump but that is where the similarities ends. The Edlebrock water pump is designed to work with the later cast iron waterpump style timing cover.
Edelbrock has in the past offered (these days? :-\) a water pump for the earlier timing cover; it with the application description of: for water pumps without the cover-plate (or something like that ::).
Scott.
Edelbrock used to advertise an early 65 to 67 Hi-Po pump that worked with the early timing cover Not sure of the part #, but it works better than the aluminum Ford pumps.
I bought a correct oil cooler for a friends R-Model replica about a year ago from Craig Conley. Not sure if he has any more or not. Might want to contact him. Good luck.
Don
gt350bp
[/quote]The Edelbrock waterpump is aluminum like the early 65 waterpump but that is where the similarities ends. The Edlebrock water pump is designed to work with the later cast iron waterpump style timing cover.
[/quote]
So, from an appearance standpoint, would I be OK with the later timing cover and the edelbrock water pump?
Check the Edelbrock 8842 for 65 to 67 289 Hi-Po. Works with early timing cover. Does not look like the Ford aluminum pump but moves much more water. My engine with the Ford pump runs about 10 degrees hotter.
Don
gt350bp
Before he moved from California to Texas, I visited Smeding and thought he did a good job with new quality parts. No personal experience with his engines though.
Photos of the Edelbrock 65 to 67 Hi-po water pump I used prior to changing to the aluminum Ford pump.
Don
gt350bp
Quote from: mlplunkett on December 03, 2022, 08:20:37 PM
The Edelbrock waterpump is aluminum like the early 65 waterpump but that is where the similarities ends. The Edlebrock water pump is designed to work with the later cast iron waterpump style timing cover.
[/quote]
So, from an appearance standpoint, would I be OK with the later timing cover and the edelbrock water pump?
[/quote] The Ford aluminum waterpump and the later Ford cast iron waterpump are visually shaped different that is why the need for the different style of timing cover. . The difference isn't just the aluminum material. There is not a dramatic difference in efficiency between a aftermarket water pump and factory IMO. The insides, impeller design and size are typically the same. If you feel the need to use a more expensive aftermarket water pump then if there is a Edlebrock waterpump that fits the early cover (designed after the ford aluminum pump) that would be better then the Edlebrock aluminum waterpump modeled after the cast iron water pump IMO. The later cover would of course need to be used with the later pump design. At least if you are being faithful to the tribute idea and look IMO. FYI regardless of what you use the water pump is typically assembled with the rest of the engine before the entire assembly is painted even at SA race engine shop. The aluminum intake seemed to be the only engine component that was added later unpainted at the race engine shop. With that said anomalies exist and a owner has the right to do anything to his own car he wants.
Quote from: gt350bp on December 04, 2022, 08:11:01 AM
Photos of the Edelbrock 65 to 67 Hi-po water pump I used prior to changing to the aluminum Ford pump.
Don
gt350bp
There was a Ford aluminum style water pump that was used up to about July of 1965 then the cast iron water pump was brought in to be used for the rest of 65 production and into later years. There was a hipo version for ether style. The hipo waterpump difference had to do with the 6 impleer blades for hipo vs. 8 blades for the regular water pump. The lower number of blades pushed less water. Which is not something that you would want for everyday driving because of cooling but something that would cause less water turbulance /cavitation at high rpm range (5K +RPM) and consequently allow cooling at high rpm.
All I'm trying to convey is that Edelbrock advertises a 65 to 67 Hi-Po water pump for the early timing cover. They do not look correct for an R-Model replica, but they work better than the aluminum Ford pumps especially in warm climate.
I live in Central Florida and my replica runs cool, as the extra capacity Aviad oil pan, oil cooler and larger Galaxie radiator with larger radiator opening and front valance all help to minimize the engine heat. If I was going to be doing more open track and racing, I would change back to the Edelbrock water pump. The early timing cover with Ford Racing balancer and Ford aluminum water pump IMO makes a nice combination for a replica.
FYI, my stroker engine was assembled by Scott (pbf777 on this forum) and it runs and look good for my purposes.
Don
gt350bp
Early 289 Edelbrock pump on an early 289 timing cover on a replica T/A Boss 302. NOTE: it does not say Edelbrock on the pump because I removed it.
(https://i.imgur.com/XccADqeh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UkxodRdh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q7gWv7Zh.jpg)
Quote from: 1109RWHP on December 04, 2022, 07:42:53 PM
Early 289 Edelbrock pump on an early 289 timing cover on a replica T/A Boss 302. NOTE: it does not say Edelbrock on the pump because I removed it.
(https://i.imgur.com/XccADqeh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UkxodRdh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q7gWv7Zh.jpg)
Yes that is a Edelbrock pump designed to replace the early style Ford aluminum water pump but it is a on a 1964 260/289 style timing cover which seems odd to use that timing cover on a replica 69 or 70 TA Boss 302 engine. That is a odd timing cover that doesn't look like factory one . Not a problem if you like it . Is it some kind of aftermarket timing cover?
That's what the 69 Boss T/A cars used with the oil filler tube opening sealed with a plug.
Scott, love your car and engine detail.
Don
gt350bp
So this looks like a NOS Hipo pump with the 6 vanes???
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353450789542?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1A9IcV9JbSma5yfa4O_MrdQ81&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=353450789542&targetid=4580153136941811&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=437225722&mkgroupid=1224856224320848&rlsatarget=pla-4580153136941811&abcId=9300906&merchantid=51291&msclkid=05dddbabf5e014e099c1b825f9f3876c
Maybe a better example since it is an actual ford part??
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203996319573?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=203996319573&targetid=4580359295528871&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=437225724&mkgroupid=1228154759183859&rlsatarget=pla-4580359295528871&abcId=9300907&merchantid=51291&msclkid=b083bafaec3a15703156d974e029463b
Quote from: mlplunkett on December 05, 2022, 10:48:40 AM
So this looks like a NOS Hipo pump with the 6 vanes???
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353450789542?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1A9IcV9JbSma5yfa4O_MrdQ81&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=353450789542&targetid=4580153136941811&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=437225722&mkgroupid=1224856224320848&rlsatarget=pla-4580153136941811&abcId=9300906&merchantid=51291&msclkid=05dddbabf5e014e099c1b825f9f3876c
Maybe a better example since it is an actual ford part??
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203996319573?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=203996319573&targetid=4580359295528871&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=437225724&mkgroupid=1228154759183859&rlsatarget=pla-4580359295528871&abcId=9300907&merchantid=51291&msclkid=b083bafaec3a15703156d974e029463b
It depends on if you care that it is not exactly like a asssemblyine part or not. C5-D is a Ford service replacement not used until after 1965 production was over.
Quote from: gt350bp on December 03, 2022, 11:34:21 AM
I'd suggest the Ford Racing balancer and 65 timing cover. The Ford Racing balancer is similar to the Hi-Po balancer in thickness and diameter, so a quick glance will look like a fully degreed R-Model balancer when painted black. The 65-timing cover will take a little bit of grinding for clearance when using the Ford Racing balancer. I also used the 65-aluminum water pump with the heater provisions tapped for plugs and used dummy rubber caps to look like the R-model. The 65-aluminum pump works OK, but I also used an Edelbrock water pump for the 65 to 67 HiPo and they run significantly cooler.
I'd suggest spending the money on something else for your replica than an old original fully degreed balancer. Perhaps a Fred Ballard button top fuel pump or a
SW 240A electric pump. Just my opinion.
Don
gt350bp
Don,
I like the looks of that balancer but for the life of me I can't find one like it on the web. Closest I came was a laser etched full timing scale from Ford Performance. Where did you find it? I'm going with the early cover, Ford aluminum pump, and your balancer if I can find one. I'll switch to the Edelbrock pump if I have overheating issues. I also checked in with Ballard to see about the button tops. Where did you find rubber caps for the heater outlets?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 05, 2022, 12:18:07 PM
Quote from: mlplunkett on December 05, 2022, 10:48:40 AM
So this looks like a NOS Hipo pump with the 6 vanes???
https://www.ebay.com/itm/353450789542?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1A9IcV9JbSma5yfa4O_MrdQ81&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=353450789542&targetid=4580153136941811&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=437225722&mkgroupid=1224856224320848&rlsatarget=pla-4580153136941811&abcId=9300906&merchantid=51291&msclkid=05dddbabf5e014e099c1b825f9f3876c
Maybe a better example since it is an actual ford part??
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203996319573?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=203996319573&targetid=4580359295528871&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=437225724&mkgroupid=1228154759183859&rlsatarget=pla-4580359295528871&abcId=9300907&merchantid=51291&msclkid=b083bafaec3a15703156d974e029463b
It depends on if you care that it is not exactly like a asssemblyine part or not. C5-D is a Ford service replacement not used until after 1965 production was over.
The C5-D core water pump is my listing if anyone is interested.
The one picture of the fully degreed balancer was a real deal balancer that I was going to use. The Ford Racing balancer is what I ended up using on my replica, as the fully degreed balancer went on an original car. I painted the Ford Racing balancer black and felt that option was better for my 327 stroker.
The rubber plugs for the aluminum water pump came from a local auto parts store. They are decorative, as the aluminum pump was tapped for plugs and sealed. Did not want to depend on the rubber plugs.
Don
gt350bp
Quote from: gt350bp on December 05, 2022, 09:17:35 PM
The one picture of the fully degreed balancer was a real deal balancer that I was going to use. The Ford Racing balancer is what I ended up using on my replica, as the fully degreed balancer went on an original car. I painted the Ford Racing balancer black and felt that option was better for my 327 stroker.
The rubber plugs for the aluminum water pump came from a local auto parts store. They are decorative, as the aluminum pump was tapped for plugs and sealed. Did not want to depend on the rubber plugs.
Don
gt350bp
Yes tap and thread some Allen plugs in the heater hose nipples for extra insurance. Been there done that. The auto parts store section with the hang card blister packs that are red and marked "Help" will have the rubber caps that you will need to complete the vintage R model heater delete look.
Just keep an eye on the rubber caps as they tend to crack and leak after a period of time.
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on December 06, 2022, 06:15:00 AM
Just keep an eye on the rubber caps as they tend to crack and leak after a period of time.
Roy
In my case there is no water leakage. The rubber plugs are just for vintage looks covering after taping and plugging the heater hose tubes on the water pump to eliminate water leaking. The same goes for the heater hose fitting on the intake. Although the rubber may crack with age it should not leak water.
Exactly! Don't depend on the rubber caps for the seal.
Don
gt350bp
Just to clarify:
Edelbrock pump #8841 (satin), #8846 (polished), #88413 (black painted), & #88414 (Endura-Shine) are pumps designed to fit the '65-'69 timing covers, right-hand inlet, "WITH BACK-PLATE.
Edelbrock pump #8842 (satin), & #8847 (polished) are pumps designed to fit the earlier timing covers, right-hand inlet, "WITHOUT BACK-PLATE" (those timing covers with oil-fill, breather tubes or plugged orifice for such present) ;)
I'm not so sure that these pumps actually pump more "efficiently", whether that be by actual flow volume or through potential pressure production, that over the standard O.E.M. units, as though I haven't actually performed flow test comparisons, but after all, they seem to exhibit the standard stamped steel impellers and as referenced previously, Ford Motor Co. intentionally reduced the pumping capability of the standard passenger car units with fewer impeller blades in certain applications; those where they anticipated they'd be turning faster anyway. :-\
We utilized the O.E.M. die-cast aluminum housing pumps in some of our endurance racing applications as they do present the lightest weight of any, but this housing did periodically exhibit failures of the nose section extension of cracking/fracturing or expanding/wallowing out of the bearing bore and losing retention of the shaft bearings. :o
We did convert these applications over to aftermarket pumps (Weiand or Edelbrock) if only for the heavier castings which solved the issue of housing failures, but really did not realize any significant differences in pumping function. :) Same with the use of the cast impellers vs the stamped steel units. though I prefer the cast units for durability, but if one doesn't over-speed/over-pressurize with stamped pieces then there generally isn't any problem with them. 8)
Scott.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 04, 2022, 11:18:29 PM
Quote from: 1109RWHP on December 04, 2022, 07:42:53 PM
Early 289 Edelbrock pump on an early 289 timing cover on a replica T/A Boss 302. NOTE: it does not say Edelbrock on the pump because I removed it.
(https://i.imgur.com/XccADqeh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UkxodRdh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q7gWv7Zh.jpg)
Yes that is a Edelbrock pump designed to replace the early style Ford aluminum water pump but it is a on a 1964 260/289 style timing cover which seems odd to use that timing cover on a replica 69 or 70 TA Boss 302 engine. That is a odd timing cover that doesn't look like factory one . Not a problem if you like it . Is it some kind of aftermarket timing cover?
It is an NOS Ford cover.
Quote from: gt350bp on December 05, 2022, 09:17:35 PM
The one picture of the fully degreed balancer was a real deal balancer that I was going to use. The Ford Racing balancer is what I ended up using on my replica, as the fully degreed balancer went on an original car. I painted the Ford Racing balancer black and felt that option was better for my 327 stroker.
Don
gt350bp
You wouldn't have a part number for the look-alike balancer would you?
The balancer I used was the Ford Racing M-6316-C351. Make sure you check with your engine builder on the stroker kit balance requirements.
Don
gt350bp
Quote from: gt350bp on December 07, 2022, 08:27:28 AM
The balancer I used was the Ford Racing M-6316-C351. Make sure you check with your engine builder on the stroker kit balance requirements.
Don
gt350bp
Just found that Cobra Automotive sells a replica Hipo balancer for similar cost to the Ford racing item. Would that make it the front runner for a tribute assuming the motor builder says it's a fit for the build?
https://store.cobraautomotive.com/289-ford-hi-po-harmonic-balancer/
Shelby Parts Store also has the item
https://shelbypartsstore.com/?product=hipo-hbal
Quote from: mlplunkett on December 13, 2022, 05:09:31 PM
Quote from: gt350bp on December 07, 2022, 08:27:28 AM
The balancer I used was the Ford Racing M-6316-C351. Make sure you check with your engine builder on the stroker kit balance requirements.
Don
gt350bp
Just found that Cobra Automotive sells a replica Hipo balancer for similar cost to the Ford racing item. Would that make it the front runner for a tribute assuming the motor builder says it's a fit for the build?
https://store.cobraautomotive.com/289-ford-hi-po-harmonic-balancer/
Shelby Parts Store also has the item
https://shelbypartsstore.com/?product=hipo-hbal
It depends on what your expectations are. The Cobra Automotive repro is meant to be no better or no worse then a original Hipo balancer . If you are wanting to get maximum RPM and performance out of a modified engine then the Ford Racing balancer has the edge.