Is it possible to enhance this photo? Many years ago I tried blowing it up to read the Goodyear tires on it. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Here's a photo I have in my files, looks to be the same car, same location, slushy snow, mud. Could that be taken at the A.O. Smith
plant, or KarKraft ? ?
Doesn't help the op though for tire identification ???
Maybe the second image helps a bit ?
Mike
There was only one RWL tire used to the best of my knowledge
The Goodyear F60x15 "no size"
The photo was the latch batch of Shelbys leaving Kar Kraft spring of 1970. From ao smith all left with no size. What about Kar Kraft. Things happened at the plant and with cars leaving into the spring of 1970 was it possible some left with size tires? They had theft issues . Tire issues etc . 1971 pics of my Shelby show size tires on it in Europe. It's been discussed before on SAAC 1.0. After talking to Larry L rip a few years I wonder on a few things.
A lot of changes were made on cars once they got to Europe to comply with various countries laws.
I would say any variations would be an exception to the rule and not typical
I believe since I have pics of my car with a few thousand kilometers on it that the size tires were on it when it left KK in Feb of 1970. I have circa 1973-4 pics and the car has Radial T/As on it.
Quote from: honker on December 28, 2022, 02:59:50 PM
Here's a photo I have in my files, looks to be the same car, same location, slushy snow, mud. Could that be taken at the A.O. Smith
plant, or KarKraft ? ?
Doesn't help the op though for tire identification ???
Maybe the second image helps a bit ?
Mike
Second image when blown up confirms the typical no size tires.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 28, 2022, 08:34:55 PM
Quote from: honker on December 28, 2022, 02:59:50 PM
Here's a photo I have in my files, looks to be the same car, same location, slushy snow, mud. Could that be taken at the A.O. Smith
plant, or KarKraft ? ?
Doesn't help the op though for tire identification ???
Maybe the second image helps a bit ?
Mike
Second image when blown up confirms the typical no size tires.
Second image? I posted 1 image from KK in the intial post. The pic with the young lady I do no5t think it is the same car or time frame that my image from Larry Lawrance was taken. Extra photos added just muddies the waters even though I have not seen that pic before. Could they be the same car? possibly. All I want to do is enhance the original pic I posted. We discussed this scenario over a decade ago Bob and ,respectfully, I do not agree with you my car left KK with no size tires in Feb 1970 with proof from my pics from late 70 early 71 from Europe.
The time frame alone really does not prove the claim.
I will show you another example of a car that left the factory with one tire and later had a different tire when it appeared in Europe. The total time span was probably less than a few weeks.
Car at Paris Auto Show 1967 with tires as built
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/8-291222051043.jpeg)
Same car, same auto show in 1967, different tires
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/8-291222051112.jpeg)
If you only saw the second photo, it would be easy to say the car "came with" black side wall tires.
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 29, 2022, 05:12:23 AM
Car at Paris Auto Show 1967 with tires as built
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/8-291222051043.jpeg)
Same car, same auto show in 1967, different tires
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/8-291222051112.jpeg)
If you only saw the second photo, it would be easy to say the car "came with" black side wall tires.
Different Photos so my guess is, not the same Auto Show. Hub Cap is in different Position. Car has been moved.
There is no question on the evidence provided. At the time the pictures were taken there was only one GT350 fastback.
I have also cropped the pictures for this post.
Nice try though...
If you can provide any evidence to the contrary other than wild speculation please do.
Same Car, YES, Different Photos, YES.
Hub Cap is rotated (look at Snake & Valve Stem)
Also Different Floor.
Is this about the tire size change to 60 series in '69? Isn't the a spindle change over after a certain build date and those cars would have '60s?
'70 Shelby's could be before or after that date?
Quote from: tesgt350 on December 29, 2022, 10:00:57 AM
Same Car, YES, Different Photos, YES.
Hub Cap is rotated (look at Snake & Valve Stem)
Also Different Floor.
My car the second owner bought in late 70 or early 71 with 3K kilometers on it from Claude DuBois. He took pics of it and I got them a decade ago. He said he never changed out the Goodyears for Goodyears right after buying it. It isn't a tire fryer GT500 so why the size tires? A few possible reasons have been given to me over the years as to wht no size when it came to KK and size tires when it left KK in Feb of 1970. So is the only shot of the last batch of 1970s leaving KK in 1970. It would be cool if we could blow up the pic and enhance it.
Quote from: shelbydoug on December 29, 2022, 11:19:18 AM
Is this about the tire size change to 60 series in '69? Isn't the a spindle change over after a certain build date and those cars would have '60s?
'70 Shelby's could be before or after that date?
My original post is to see what tires are on the original pic. No question most Shelbys after April 1 got the F-60-15s and all left AO Smith with no size tires. It is what happened when at KK for months before the Shelbys were shipped out.
I have never seen any evidence that cars had tires changed at Kar Kraft.
Not saying it didn't happen
Just saying I have never seen any evidence that cars had tires changed at Kar Kraft
What are "no size" tires? No white lettering of the size on the sidewall?
Or, no size imprinted on the tire at all?
Seems unlikely there'd be no size at all.
Correct. The discussion is about the appearance of the tire. Size and no size is a reference to if the tire had that feature in raised white letters visible on the side.
Thanks Pete.
What do we say about extra ordinary claims ;) . In this case no compelling evidence "0" directly linking your car or any 68/70 Shelby for that matter with the not typical sized tires (tire size in white letters) at KK before being shipped out for delivery . Of course you can always use the anything is possible defense. You are beating a dead horse here IMO.
When all is said and done, does it really matter?
.Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on December 29, 2022, 07:01:31 PM
When all is said and done, does it really matter?
.Roy
yes and no
to me, no I get ribbed a lot when I hang out with the early mustang crowd
"you of all people should have the correct tires on your cars"
no again, I love my radials ride, handling and most importantly their price and availability
yes because it's historically important to know what was used then
I was almost tempted to have a friend that works for the feds take a look and magnify the photo, but no...save that request for a more important matter
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 29, 2022, 11:40:18 AM
I have never seen any evidence that cars had tires changed at Kar Kraft.
Not saying it didn't happen
Just saying I have never seen any evidence that cars had tires changed at Kar Kraft
What evidence would you expect to find? In what avenues? Paperwork? How do we come to conclusions on how cars were built? Wasn't one being period photos? Original cars? WORKERS? Larry told me a few years back there were issues at KK with theft. The yard where the B9s and Shelbys were held wasn't exactly a fortress. Shelbys sat for how many months? My car built in May and left in Feb. Changed over in Oct. How about the issues with the F-60-15 tires Goodyear had? Not being balanced right. Those should have been changed out though before nov of 69. I shake my head when I see pics of my car with a few thousand kilometers on it from 70-71 and it has size tires on it. Yeah, we have been down this road before but the same people who use pics and workers to come up with their conclusions very conveniently dismiss mine? The second owner bought with about 3K kilometers on my car. What is that? about 18 hundred miles? He thought until the 2000s he bought a demo from Claude not knowing the first owner only had it briefly. He never put New Goodyears on it but put Radial T/As on it around 1973(got pics of those also). GT350s don't fry the tires so no scenario makes sense to my car leaving KK with no size tires. None. But I get it. I really didn't want a discussion as to I want a enhanced photo of this car which could very well show no size tires but like some have said extraordinary proof...
Quote from: Side-Oilers on December 29, 2022, 11:46:04 AM
What are "no size" tires? No white lettering of the size on the sidewall?
Or, no size imprinted on the tire at all?
Seems unlikely there'd be no size at all.
all tire on Shelbys with the XHD suspension had no size leaving AO Smith. THe question is what could have happened to some Shelbys while sitting at KK for months. I got pics of my Shelby a few months old with very little miles on it from the second owner who said he never changed out the Goodyears and the pics he sent he told me those were the tires on it until he put Radial T/As on it around 1973. So how did my car end up with size tires on it? Car was shipped to Belgium and sold new on Sept 30, 1970.
Another thing is that while Claude(RIP) told me his memory failed him on what happened to the paperwork I found a guy over there that says he has paperwork and he will sift through it for my car. My car came to me in 1985 with 6/1970 dated Koni shocks on it. It would be cool to find out if they were changed out by Claude when new. Probably were not but the shocks predate the sale of the car by at least 3 months. My car also had a fiberglass front spoiler. Road rashed and repaired like one with 60K miles on it but all 70s got a plastic one so I still have not figured out who could have made a fiberglass one as I never have found one for sale yet in 40 years. The mounting on the fiberglass one was either mounted exactly like the factory plastic one was or it was the only one on the car when I bought it. Rick Parker thought an export vert he had had a fiberglass one but never looked at it and sold the car.
Quote from: TA Coupe on December 29, 2022, 07:01:31 PM
When all is said and done, does it really matter?
.Roy
It does to me as it is the history of my car. Yeah, it would be easy to use no size tires but I have delved into otehr things here like side emblems and hood stripes and old photos that have surfaced years later after the discussion has proven me right on those things. Ah, if only we still had SAAC 1.0.
Another thing is researching my red striped seats in my vert. Well all the photos I have they just do not show the seat stripes but the second owner saw pics of my car and said he liked the seat stripe but they were not there when he owned the car so eventually a dying is in order. It's nice to converse with a person who owned your car when it was basically new(about 1800 miles).
Well , Im not ruling it out, Im saying lets look at the evidence.
The photo says "circa" that means approximately. Could it be 1972 or 1973?
There is a decal below the mirror. Does that mean it is also "factory"?
Do we get to choose which items are valid and which are not?
I think its pretty self evident that cars in Europe were often modified to meet the requirements of the country they were in.
Can you say for sure thats an F60x15 and not some other size?
Are there any other period pictures with definitive dates that show "sized" tires? I recall a few pictures of the European shows.
Quote from: Coralsnake on December 31, 2022, 08:52:33 AM
Well , Im not ruling it out, Im saying lets look at the evidence.
The photo says "circa" that means approximately. Could it be 1972 or 1973?
There is a decal below the mirror. Does that mean it is also "factory"?
Do we get to choose which items are valid and which are not?
I think its pretty self evident that cars in Europe were often modified to meet the requirements of the country they were in.
Can you say for sure thats an F60x15 and not some other size?
Are there any other period pictures with definitive dates that show "sized" tires? I recall a few pictures of the European shows.
photo says circa 1971. It was either the end of 70 or 1971. I'm the one who added the verbiage to the photo. After talking more over the years with Patryce and finding out he bought a 70 Boss 302 and owned it for a short period of time before trading it in on my 70 Gt350 vert which he thought was a demo. Pics below say it all: The license plate on the Boss 302 is the same as the one on the vert. Plate transferred over. Same plate dating to around 1974-5 on my car in later pics. So adding a company sticker to a car or even painting the tail light bezels black lends the car to say the tires must have been changed out also? I heard the same stuff in SAAC 1.0 about the rear quarter emblems on my car. Car is not "original" so the emblems were probably added. Well we now know from Bill Cook's period photos that they were indeed added before a cars sale and not some dealer accessory. Luckily Patryce was a guy who liked to take pics of his cars.
European shows were there any 1970 cars there or all 1969s? If 1969s you are missing the point as in tire issues at KK for one reason or another or even a warranty issue on a tire while still new? Car shipped Feb 1970 from KK Via Wixom to Belgium via NY,NY according to SAAC. Sold new Sept 30, 1970. Feel free to enhance the pic as I can tell they are F-60-15s by comparison to other Shelbys plus the one pic I posted the side view blow it up-rear tire says F-60-15.
I have spoken with original Mustang owners who had issues early on, flat tires, stolen rims/tires, bent rims, etc..Can't believe it would be any different for the Shelbys. So anything is possible.....The car being sent overseas, any of those could have happened in between AO Smith and DeBoise.....
Imagine the following phone call from a shipper:
Shipper: I've got a flat or damaged tire, send me a replacement
Tire supplier: Sure thing
Shipper: Got the tire, it does not match the others, send me a matching set or I'll have to take my business elsewhere
Tire supplier: No problem, we will take care of it ASAP as we value your business. ;D
Just food for thought.
Bill
From a graphics perspective - I opened up your pic that is the subject of this thread and it is 72dpi - a very low resolution.
Do you have access to that original photograph or know who does?
That needs to be scanned into a computer at a very high resolution, 1200dpi or so and then you can blow it way up and see what information is readable.
- Phillip
Quote from: propayne on December 31, 2022, 09:27:57 AM
From a graphics perspective - I opened up your pic that is the subject of this thread and it is 72dpi - a very low resolution.
Do you have access to that original photograph or know who does?
That needs to be scanned into a computer at a very high resolution, 1200dpi or so and then you can blow it way up and see what information is readable.
- Phillip
This is about the best I can do without it getting really grainy.
1500 x 687
Forum software compresses size
Bill
Quote from: propayne on December 31, 2022, 09:27:57 AM
From a graphics perspective - I opened up your pic that is the subject of this thread and it is 72dpi - a very low resolution.
Do you have access to that original photograph or know who does?
That needs to be scanned into a computer at a very high resolution, 1200dpi or so and then you can blow it way up and see what information is readable.
- Phillip
Larry Lawrence but he is now deceased. My new year's resolution is to go to his old shop and see if his widow is running it or I can find her through the shop. Larry had a bunch of photos he said but was protective as he lent out the "Kar Kraft Aerial view" that he commissioned a pilot to take to a Mustang "Judge" and never got the photo back. It is all over the internet. My friend Mark was going to follow up with Larry to try and scan his original photos he had but then Larry passed away.
I am not a photo forensics expert - just a graphic artist that does a lot of scanning - but in my experience you need to go back to that original print or even better the original negative.
The info just isn't there in that low-res jpeg.
- Phillip
Quote from: propayne on December 31, 2022, 11:29:12 AM
I am not a photo forensics expert - just a graphic artist that does a lot of scanning - but in my experience you need to go back to that original print or even better the original negative.
The info just isn't there in that low-res jpeg.
- Phillip
Thanks.
I wonder where Charlie Henry who wrote the Kar-Kraft book got those photos, would it have been Larry Lawrence ? The book was
published in 2017 was Lawrence still alive then ?
Mike
Quote from: propayne on December 31, 2022, 11:29:12 AM
I am not a photo forensics expert - just a graphic artist that does a lot of scanning - but in my experience you need to go back to that original print or even better the original negative.
The info just isn't there in that low-res jpeg.
- Phillip
+1. That image has to many things going against it to do anything further that would be useful. Low resolution is one, JPG compression artifacts is another. If you do have access to the original photo or negative, rescanning at high resolution as mentioned by Phillip is very important, also saving initially as an uncompressed TIF would eliminate any JPG artifacts.