Plan on installing a Toploader in a 427 cobra and have some questions.
I have every toploader combination and different extension housings
Wanted to select the best one for correct shifter position coming through the floor.
Would this be a 24" toploader , with a mid shifter position extension housing, with the factory big block metal shifter relocation plate bringing it back (like a big block mustang) , factory shifter with the handle installed backwards?
or another combination?
I also have a small block mustang extension housing with its shifter position at the end of the tail, that has been bored out to big shaft if thats a better route to go.
Quote from: brandosaac on February 01, 2023, 01:24:11 PM
Plan on installing a Toploader in a 427 cobra and have some questions.
I have every toploader combination and different extension housings
Wanted to select the best one for correct shifter position coming through the floor.
Would this be a 24" toploader , with a mid shifter position extension housing, with the factory big block metal shifter relocation plate bringing it back (like a big block mustang) , factory shifter with the handle installed backwards?
or another combination?
I also have a small block mustang extension housing with its shifter position at the end of the tail, that has been bored out to big shaft if thats a better route to go.
I think 427 Cobra toploaders were typically big in (31 spline) and small out (28) .
Thanks for the reply bob, i am aware of that.
was just seeking information on shifter location on the extension housing (tali housing)
Hi
I am going to attempt to upload some photos for you. Bob is correct regarding the original 427 Cobra using the big in small out. Recommend if you are building your top loader to go big in, big out. You are correct regarding the 24" overall length. The shifting mechanism is mounted to the rear. Dan Williams in NC is a great resource as he has a long career building toploaders. Hope this helps
Regards
Cory
More pics
Pics
Shifter
Shifter
Quote from: coryh on February 03, 2023, 08:45:12 AM
Hi
I am going to attempt to upload some photos for you. Bob is correct regarding the original 427 Cobra using the big in small out. Recommend if you are building your top loader to go big in, big out. You are correct regarding the 24" overall length. The shifting mechanism is mounted to the rear. Dan Williams in NC is a great resource as he has a long career building toploaders. Hope this helps
Regards
Cory
Yes Cory I have a handful of big in / big out and will end up using one of those 100% originality isnt a major deal ,
i have the option of running that C4ZR tail or a C6/C7OR with the kick back plate, Both tails are big bore, just wondering which would land the shifter in a better position (if not the same?)
Very familar with Dan , and he always seems to drill and install the vent at the top of the extension housing. Every time I see a toploader with that, I know its been in his hands.
Dans a very nice guy , Its just hard to get him off the phone mid conversation :)
I do very little with 427 Cobra specific parts but I have collected some information over the years. I have the original Shelby American office copy of the purchase order numbers by part they had to buy to complete the street chassis A.C. Cars sent them and some information on recommended spares for competition cars.
Caution: If the 427 Cobra parts lists are no more accurate than the Cobra ones, users should take every part number as a starting point for their own research.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/274-030223135841.jpeg)
The next page of the purchase order file lists another transmission: C6AR-7003-B. Based on pictures, "1966" cars used a particular transmission and "1967" cars used a different one.
The units listed by chassis number are owner provided assembly tag details.
Thanks Dan...always a wealth of information!
Cory
Quote from: coryh on February 03, 2023, 04:30:33 PM
Thanks Dan...always a wealth of information!
Cory
You are welcome.
Quote from: coryh on February 03, 2023, 08:45:12 AM
Hi
I am going to attempt to upload some photos for you. Bob is correct regarding the original 427 Cobra using the big in small out. Recommend if you are building your top loader to go big in, big out. You are correct regarding the 24" overall length. The shifting mechanism is mounted to the rear. Dan Williams in NC is a great resource as he has a long career building toploaders. Hope this helps
Regards
Cory
Cory , Are you certain the extension housing (C4ZR) on your toploader was how a 427 Cobra would have come? Or are you saying it worked for you?
Quote from: Dan Case on February 03, 2023, 01:55:36 PM
I do very little with 427 Cobra specific parts but I have collected some information over the years. I have the original Shelby American office copy of the purchase order numbers by part they had to buy to complete the street chassis A.C. Cars sent them and some information on recommended spares for competition cars.
Caution: If the 427 Cobra parts lists are no more accurate than the Cobra ones, users should take every part number as a starting point for their own research.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/274-030223135841.jpeg)
The units listed by chassis number are owner provided assembly tag details.
Interesting parts lists. The C5AR-7003-G is a big input, small output, long tail housing, HEH-R, which was replaced/serviced by the C6AZ-7003-B, which is a big input, big output, long tail housing. The RUG-S is the big input, big output short tailhousing used in the '67 GT500s. Not much info/luck yet on the HEH-BY transmission.
Thanks for all the replies so far, but now its even more confusing for me regarding shifter position on tail.
HEH-R which is a Galaxie toploader , would have its shifter position far forward on the tail 17" housing ,
The RUG-S ( 67 SHELBY) would have its shifter position in the mid position of the 14" tail,
and in Corey's post above he mentions using the small block mustang 14" tail with the shifter mount at the very end of the tail.
These are 3 different shifter positions.
The original post looks like an inquiry about tail shaft housings and 427 Cobras, but how shifting equipment was installed in original 1960s 427 Cobras by Shelby American seems the central question maybe. Said another way, how did Shelby's works get the gear shift lever located exactly where they did?
Degreased transmission and hardware low mile unrestored "1966" 427 Cobra.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/274-080223152432.jpeg)
Very low mile unrestored "1967" 427 Cobra shift mechanism.
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/274-080223140045.jpeg)
Thanks for the reply Dan.
Yes sorry, if I didnt make myself clear before, I plan on removing a 5 speed from a cobra and installing a toploader and wanted to figure out the best combination to where the shifter mixing box lands in the correct spot just below the hole in the tunnel.
I have many toploader lengths and configurations ; Fairlane / Tiger 25.5" , Mustang / Cougar 24" , and Galaxie / Torino 27" , and various tail housings that can be thrown on to change the shifter mount locating (on the 24" and 27" versions) , was just curious as to what combination would be best.
Judging by your pictures of the original Cobra toploader, you have a 24" toploader with the (later C4ZR) mustang tail housing with the mount at the very rear , and thanks for the pic showing from underneath , that lands the shifter directly below the hole in the tunnel.
And, by looking at various pics they used the (reverse mounted) earlier 64.5 mustang chrome stick with the bend and not the later (65-68) mustang chrome stick that was more curved
thank you Corey as well for your pics
You are welcome.
The purchase order list shows:
C4JZ-7202-A Trans.Shift Lever with Knob and Boot
C4ZA-7400-J Control Assy.-Trans. Gear Shift
Those numbers mean nothing to me but that is what is listed.
Quote from: brandosaac on February 08, 2023, 04:48:01 PM
Judging by your pictures of the original Cobra toploader, you have a 24" toploader with the (later C4ZR) mustang tail housing with the mount at the very rear ,
Just attempting to clarify: Judging by the pictures (reply #15), and if I remember correctly (which is very hazardous ::)) isn't it the 'earlier' C4ZR tail housing that is drilled at the "mid-mounting" position and then the offset adapter moves the shifter rearward (earlier Mustangs, etc.?) as appears in the photos; whereas it is the 'later' C4ZR tail housings (as in BOSS 302's & others ?) that have the rear-most mounting bosses faced, drilled & tapped for the rear-most position and though still have a mounting adapter for the shifter it doesn't present such the off-set? :-\
Scott.
Quote from: pbf777 on February 08, 2023, 07:21:47 PM
Quote from: brandosaac on February 08, 2023, 04:48:01 PM
Judging by your pictures of the original Cobra toploader, you have a 24" toploader with the (later C4ZR) mustang tail housing with the mount at the very rear ,
Just attempting to clarify: Judging by the pictures (reply #15), and if I remember correctly (which is very hazardous ::)) isn't it the 'earlier' C4ZR tail housing that is drilled at the "mid-mounting" position and then the offset adapter moves the shifter rearward (earlier Mustangs, etc.?) as appears in the photos; whereas it is the 'later' C4ZR tail housings (as in BOSS 302's & others ?) that have the rear-most mounting bosses faced, drilled & tapped for the rear-most position and though still have a mounting adapter for the shifter it doesn't present such the off-set? :-\
Scott.
no, the C4ZR (and earlier C4DR ) mustang tail housings had their shifter mounting at the rear as shown in the recent pics.
The 14" mid position tail housings were the C6OR ... and C7OR.
The C6OR tails actually had both the mid position and the rear position , the C7OR just had the mid position. The mid position C6OR and C7OR tails were used in the big block Mustangs/Cougars/Shelbys also fairlane ranchero
Quote from: Dan Case on February 08, 2023, 02:02:06 PM
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/274-080223140045.jpeg)
That which I was trying to clarify was as in this picture the rear-most mounting bosses on this tail housing do not appear to be machined, nor is the shifter mounted to the rear-most position on the tail housing, but rather the offset adapter bracket mounted to the mid-point mounting bosses that are machined and this provides for the rear-mounted position of the shifter. :)
And I have in the past had C4ZR tail housings machined in either position (though appearing proper in execution, but maybe not by the O.E.? :-\), though I very well may be incorrect on the early or late or even intended applications as that was few decades ago that I was rebuilding many a top-loader, that is before I sold off all (tons, yes tons :o) of that inventory. :)
Scott.
Quote from: pbf777 on February 09, 2023, 12:06:03 PM
Quote from: Dan Case on February 08, 2023, 02:02:06 PM
(https://www.saac.com/forum/gallery/274-080223140045.jpeg)
That which I was trying to clarify was as in this picture the rear-most mounting bosses on this tail housing do not appear to be machined, nor is the shifter mounted to the rear-most position on the tail housing, but rather the offset adapter bracket mounted to the mid-point mounting bosses that are machined and this provides for the rear-mounted position of the shifter. :)
And I have in the past had C4ZR tail housings machined in either position (though appearing proper in execution, but maybe not by the O.E.? :-\), though I very well may be incorrect on the early or late or even intended applications as that was few decades ago that I was rebuilding many a top-loader, that is before I sold off all (tons, yes tons :o) of that inventory. :)
Scott.
oh wow, I didnt even notice that! thanks scott for pointing that out.and going back up a few posts looking at Dans pics, I just realized those ae 2 different transmissions, one for 66 and the other for 67, I thought those were the same transmission as I didnt focus on what dan wrote and just looked at the pics.
On the under carraige pic it is a C6OR Tail , if it is a 28 spline output it is C6OR-7A040-C and if it is a 31 spline output it is a C6OR-7A040-D (same as 67 Shelby GT500) that has both the mid position and the rear position bosses. it is mounted to the mid position with the kick back plate that was used on the big block mustangs / shelbys. Most likely that toploader is an RUG-S.
So to sum up my question regarding toploader length and which tail for proper shifter position,
judging by the pics , a 24" toploader with either the mid position tail with the big block kick back plate,
or the small block C4ZR tail with the mounting at the end of the tail will work , as both land the shifter mixing box in the same location.
thanks
Quote from: brandosaac on February 06, 2023, 11:31:05 PM
Quote from: coryh on February 03, 2023, 08:45:12 AM
Hi
I am going to attempt to upload some photos for you. Bob is correct regarding the original 427 Cobra using the big in small out. Recommend if you are building your top loader to go big in, big out. You are correct regarding the 24" overall length. The shifting mechanism is mounted to the rear. Dan Williams in NC is a great resource as he has a long career building toploaders. Hope this helps
Regards
Cory
Cory , Are you certain the extension housing (C4ZR) on your toploader was how a 427 Cobra would have come? Or are you saying it worked for you?
Hi
Sorry I just saw your question. Yes it works for me and the shifter position seems to land right where it needs to be.
Cory