I finally got around to working on the rear brakes on my '66 Hertz. Left rear was smoking on the way home one day so I knew I had to investigate. Too many other things going on around the house with higher priority kept me from getting to it sooner. I'm now working on the driver's side rear. The cable going to the adjuster bracket had broken. Brake shoes had been installed backwards who knows when. Shoe material is cracked with a strange wear pattern and there is also some shoe material missing on one of the upper/lower edges. They're a mess! I have the new parts installed. Problem is the drum will not go on without some persuasion. I had to remove it by gently using a hammer. The self adjuster is at its shortest length and the top portion of the shoes is at the pivot pin. I've attached some pics. I also loosened the bleeder screw on the brake cylinder. I'm thinking that something might be tweaked, possibly the drum? Any other ideas?
Craig R.
Pretty sure I see the problem. The entire assembly does not seem to be centered. If you look at the 3rd picture there's a big gap from the shoe to the rear side of the backing plate and the 4th picture shows almost none.
Roy
Quote from: TA Coupe on May 02, 2023, 09:26:26 PM
Pretty sure I see the problem. The entire assembly does not seem to be centered. If you look at the 3rd picture there's a big gap from the shoe to the rear side of the backing plate and the 4th picture shows almost none.
Roy
I agree, you should be able to pull the shoe up onto the backing plate pads. Also, both springs should be in front of the self adjusting cable.
In addition, make sure the emergency brake cable is completely releasing. Lightly tap on the lever/cable hardware behind the secondary shoe. A small movement will allow a increased air gap.
Craig, You might look into having your new shoes arched by a brake shop. That is a process where the new shoes are surfaced to the correct arch so they fully contact the drum surface. You can simply hold the shoe against the drum friction surface and check for arch contact. Arching them with the proper equipment will remove areas of material from the shoes and may give you the clearance you need as well as maximizing the braking efficiency. It is an old school process but was very common back in the drum brake days. Just a thought. Good luck.
Quote from: TA Coupe on May 02, 2023, 09:26:26 PM
Pretty sure I see the problem. The entire assembly does not seem to be centered. If you look at the 3rd picture there's a big gap from the shoe to the rear side of the backing plate and the 4th picture shows almost none.
Roy
I agree! I noticed that after assembly. The left shoe is actually on the plate but not by much. I've tried pulling that shoe up and over but all that happens is that the shoe pulls away from the top anchor pin. Maybe there's an issue with the backing plate. Very frustrating!
Craig R.
Quote from: greekz on May 02, 2023, 09:42:45 PM
Quote from: TA Coupe on May 02, 2023, 09:26:26 PM
Pretty sure I see the problem. The entire assembly does not seem to be centered. If you look at the 3rd picture there's a big gap from the shoe to the rear side of the backing plate and the 4th picture shows almost none.
Roy
I agree, you should be able to pull the shoe up onto the backing plate pads. Also, both springs should be in front of the self adjusting cable.
I thought the same regarding the 2 springs and the cable. The factory 1966 Ford Mustang manual, page 2-18, states that it goes on after the right spring (yellow) is attached to the anchor pin. I always thought the cable eye went on first but decided to follow the manual.
Craig R.
Could it be that the Shoes are the wrong ones? Right Box, wrong Shoes? Did you double check the Part Number on the box was correct?
Wrong shoes or drum , worn backing plate pads ( groves in pads ) , parking brake cable not releasing , wrong wheel cylinders , adjuster too long , all could cause this problem. Adjuster cable is always installed first before springs , and are you missing the pivot pin plate ? To make the job look professional squeeze the end of the springs some so they are not half open , also don't forget to lube the backing plate pads . Good luck.
Quote from: tesgt350 on May 03, 2023, 08:20:14 AM
Could it be that the Shoes are the wrong ones? Right Box, wrong Shoes? Did you double check the Part Number on the box was correct?
Shoes are a perfect match with the old ones. That's one of the first things I checked before installation. Thanks!
Craig R.
I have seen the shoes cut for this reason. My past impression was that they were out of round but I didn't think about it that much.
If you look at the wear pattern on a broken in set you will rarely see a full contact pattern.
The set of shoes that I have are sectioned in three parts and you can clearly see a metallic content to them on the edges.
I'm wondering if the sectioning is an attempt at "correcting" this issue?
Here is a picture from the 1966 Shop Manual, maybe it will help.
Quote from: Lincoln tech on May 03, 2023, 08:57:45 AM
Wrong shoes or drum , worn backing plate pads ( groves in pads ) , parking brake cable not releasing , wrong wheel cylinders , adjuster too long , all could cause this problem. Adjuster cable is always installed first before springs , and are you missing the pivot pin plate ? To make the job look professional squeeze the end of the springs some so they are not half open , also don't forget to lube the backing plate pads . Good luck.
Pivot pin plate was never there. I have a couple on order and will install. I smoothed down the backing plate pads and lubed prior to shoe installation. Parts were ordered about 4 years ago when I first started the brake work. Brake shoes were one of the first things I checked. Thanks for all of the valuable info!
Craig R.
Quote from: greekz on May 03, 2023, 12:59:06 PM
Here is a picture from the 1966 Shop Manual, maybe it will help.
That's my reference manual. It's gotten lots of use! Thanks!
There's no pivot pin plate shown in that particular picture.
Craig R.
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 03, 2023, 12:51:43 PM
I have seen the shoes cut for this reason. My past impression was that they were out of round but I didn't think about it that much.
If you look at the wear pattern on a broken in set you will rarely see a full contact pattern.
The set of shoes that I have are sectioned in three parts and you can clearly see a metallic content to them on the edges.
I'm wondering if the sectioning is an attempt at "correcting" this issue?
Here's my old shoes!
A few pages later a smaller picture does show the pivot plate. Interesting the larger pictures do not.
If it was not intended to be used he may not have enough room to install one , anyway with or without will not cause the problem he's having. Ford shop manuals or parts catalogs were never perfect . Only my opinion :)
Quote from: Lincoln tech on May 03, 2023, 01:37:17 PM
If it was not intended to be used he may not have enough room to install one , anyway with or without will not cause the problem he's having. Ford shop manuals or parts catalogs were never perfect . Only my opinion :)
That is true. Neither of my cars have the pivot plate, as well as many cars that I have done brake shoe replacement. I have found them on other '50's and '60's Ford vehicles.
Quote from: shelbydoug on May 03, 2023, 12:51:43 PM
I have seen the shoes cut for this reason. My past impression was that they were out of round but I didn't think about it that much.
If you look at the wear pattern on a broken in set you will rarely see a full contact pattern.
The set of shoes that I have are sectioned in three parts and you can clearly see a metallic content to them on the edges.
I'm wondering if the sectioning is an attempt at "correcting" this issue?
The segments on the brake shoes like the ones used in the 65/66 Shelby's and sold aftermarket to the high performance crowd are supposed to provide better braking in competition. The Shelby ones and the aftermarket high performance versions were of a semi metallic materiel. The spaces between the segments better get rid of brake wear material,water sand ,mud etc. so that optimal contact between the lining material and the drum surface can be maintained. This is compared to the same non segmented shoe. Probably better dissipation of heat compared to non segmented too. Today I think instead of the individual segments the pad material has a groove made into it.
Have you tried swapping drums side to side to see if That will help you with more information?
Roy
Quote from: greekz on May 03, 2023, 01:47:49 PM
Quote from: Lincoln tech on May 03, 2023, 01:37:17 PM
If it was not intended to be used he may not have enough room to install one , anyway with or without will not cause the problem he's having. Ford shop manuals or parts catalogs were never perfect . Only my opinion :)
That is true. Neither of my cars have the pivot plate, as well as many cars that I have done brake shoe replacement. I have found them on other '50's and '60's Ford vehicles.
Some people would just decide to throw them away along with parking brake link spring retainer just because those items made the job a little too hard ???
^^^ How long (in years/decades) since those babies were last changed?
^^^^ Car was purchased in 2004 and was supposedly taken to the brake shop after the chassis work was finished. I highly doubt anything was done other than maybe some minor adjustments and topping off the brake fluid. Before my purchase, car spent many years on the east coast which led to lots of rust. The wheel cylinder bleeder screw was nearly rusted away! I'll probably wind up purchasing lots of new parts and have my repair shop replace almost everything. Many of the fittings won't budge even using Blaster and a line wrench. Probably best to go with all new parts. Backing plates are pretty rusty so I may have to source some replacements. Having an arthritic knee makes doing repairs that I usually did now very difficult.
Craig R.
Quote from: TA Coupe on May 03, 2023, 04:44:09 PM
Have you tried swapping drums side to side to see if That will help you with more information?
Roy
I'll be doing that in the next couple of days to see what I'm dealing with. Since my whole assembly seems to be off center I need to focus on the cause. Thanks!
Craig R.
Quote from: SHELB66 on May 03, 2023, 11:09:45 PM
I'll be doing that in the next couple of days to see what I'm dealing with. Since my whole assembly seems to be off center I need to focus on the cause. Thanks!
Craig R.
For me sometimes the whole brake assembly just needs a heavy hand slap from side to side for the shoes and touching parts find their true center. Just what has worked for me over the years. Nothing fancy but maybe worth a try.
Parents and others have often told me I was "heavy handed " ::) over the years :)
Quote from: SHELB66 on May 03, 2023, 10:24:59 PM
^^^^ Car was purchased in 2004 and was supposedly taken to the brake shop after the chassis work was finished. I highly doubt anything was done other than maybe some minor adjustments and topping off the brake fluid. Before my purchase, car spent many years on the east coast which led to lots of rust. The wheel cylinder bleeder screw was nearly rusted away! I'll probably wind up purchasing lots of new parts and have my repair shop replace almost everything. Many of the fittings won't budge even using Blaster and a line wrench. Probably best to go with all new parts. Backing plates are pretty rusty so I may have to source some replacements. Having an arthritic knee makes doing repairs that I usually did now very difficult.
Craig R.
Mechanics stool works real good for us old guys ;) shame we live so far from each other , I would gladly come over and help you with this . Check that parking brake cable .
Quote from: J_Speegle on May 04, 2023, 04:13:33 AM
Quote from: SHELB66 on May 03, 2023, 11:09:45 PM
I'll be doing that in the next couple of days to see what I'm dealing with. Since my whole assembly seems to be off center I need to focus on the cause. Thanks!
Craig R.
For me sometimes the whole brake assembly just needs a heavy hand slap from side to side for the shoes and touching parts find their true center. Just what has worked for me over the years. Nothing fancy but maybe worth a try.
Parents and others have often told me I was "heavy handed " ::) over the years :)
My dad taught me how to do drum brakes many years ago. He would say that when the job was finished one should be able to swing the whole shoe assembly from side to side by gripping the bottom. The whole assembly should move smoothly. Mine doesn't! The left shoe wants to move up and away from the pivot pin. I'll be taking everything off when I install the pivot plate and will check the emergency brake mechanism, wheel cylinder, backing plate, etc. Hopefully something will surface. Thanks, Jeff!
Craig R.
While you have everything off, though you might have already checked these, see if the pads the shoes ride on, on the backing plate, are smooth and not grooved or other wise damaged. Some times it can be the smallest and simple things
Is your cross bar on the shoe or the e-brake lever?
^^^ The spring loaded side is on the shoe while the other side is on the lever. Same on right rear.
Craig R.
Quote from: trotrof1 on May 02, 2023, 09:58:28 PM
In addition, make sure the emergency brake cable is completely releasing. Lightly tap on the lever/cable hardware behind the secondary shoe. A small movement will allow a increased air gap.
Turned out this was the problem. Apparently the emergency brake cable, even though released inside the car, is not fully releasing in the rear. That was probably my initial problem. For now I just disconnected the cable from the lever inside the drum. Everything fits fine. Since this car was exposed to the elements for many years it will be receiving lots of new replacement brake parts for safety's sake. Thanks to everyone who responded to my inquiry. Much appreciated!
Craig R.
I appreciate the closure post because I had been wondering and I am sure others too what the problem was.
I just got back to working on the car today. I'd work on it everyday if I could! There's just too much else going on right now that carries a higher priority (at least that's what my wife says).
Craig R.
I told you we'll get this thing fixed ;) Nice work Graig.
Good job! It is hard to fit the fun work in between the honey-do's.
Glad to see you found the problem. Collectively we usually can help narrow down electrical /mechanical issues.
My Hertz now has all new brake components from front to rear excluding rear drums and backing plates (thank goodness!). All is good and I'm back on the road again. I almost forgot how fun it is to drive this car! Time to move on to the next item on the "66 Hertz" list. Thanks again for everyone's assistance. I know that more questions will be coming!
Craig R.