https://bringatrailer.com/listing/kelsey-hayes-3/
I have questions.
Quote from: OldFordGuy on June 07, 2023, 05:03:13 PM
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/kelsey-hayes-3/
I have questions.
FYI those are 15 wheels. They are not to be confused with the typical 66 GT350 14" painted wheels.
These are very interesting.
I understand the need to replace the "hoop" on the Cragars during restoration as they need to be rechromed, but why would one replace on a steel wheel?
I would think, that unless terribly rusted, that you would simply clean up (media blast, chemical, etc.) and repaint.
Am I missing something here?
Curious as to what these "restored" wheels will bring.
On BaT ...my pal says $20,000 :o
Quote from: bluemax on June 08, 2023, 06:47:27 AM
These are very interesting.
I understand the need to replace the "hoop" on the Cragars during restoration as they need to be rechromed, but why would one replace on a steel wheel?
I would think, that unless terribly rusted, that you would simply clean up (media blast, chemical, etc.) and repaint.
Am I missing something here?
Curious as to what these "restored" wheels will bring.
My initial thoughts also. I've only run across a couple wheels that were so rusty/pitted that they couldn't be used... as in actual rust holes through the outer rim and huge craters in the surface.
My understanding regarding the removal of the "hoops" for both original Cragars and Steel Wheels:
In order to restore the wheels (and to ensure that they are DOT certified post restoration), the hoop has to be removed and replaced with a DOT hoop. Craig will not restore a wheel (Cragar or otherwise) without removing and replacing the hoops with DOTs. Not my area of expertise, but I definitely understand.
Others have "restored" wheels without removing the original hoops, but those people (from my understanding) are no longer in business, and the wheels didn't turn out too well. Bob and Craig commented recently on a set of "restored" original Cragars that sold on BaT with concerns.
As far as pitting / rust: if the hoops were unsalvageable, so would the center.
Again, Craig would be the best person to answer these questions...just my 2 cents from having Craig restore numerous wheels for me.
I would consider the K-H HiPo wheels being offered in the BaT auction to be a RE-CREATION or replica of the original K-H 15"x6" HiPo steel wheel.
My guess is they were re-rimmed only because they were originally manufactured by K-H as an early 15x5 HiPo wheel or most likely they were a set of narrow width run of the mill K-H produced generic HiPo style wheels, no sign of a "FoMoCo" stamp on the center hub only the "K-H" stamp.
With the DOT 6" rim and no "FoMoCo" stamp, I would consider these wheels to be no different than a reproduction wheel, but if you want the steel wheel look and don't have any, these would be the next best thing to originals.
Certainly not worth anywhere near $20k
Quote from: George Schalk on June 08, 2023, 05:15:23 PM
I would consider the K-H HiPo wheels being offered in the BaT auction to be a RE-CREATION or replica of the original K-H 15"x6" HiPo steel wheel.
My guess is they were re-rimmed only because they were originally manufactured by K-H as an early 15x5 HiPo wheel or most likely they were a set of narrow width run of the mill K-H produced generic HiPo style wheels, no sign of a "FoMoCo" stamp on the center hub only the "K-H" stamp.
With the DOT 6" rim and no "FoMoCo" stamp, I would consider these wheels to be no different than a reproduction wheel, but if you want the steel wheel look and don't have any, these would be the next best thing to originals.
Certainly not worth anywhere near $20k
Hi George,
I normally wouldn't comment on an item for sale unless I know that something is incorrect. These wheels are mine and I'm the one who listed them, and I can attest to them.
It was an option for HiPos (according to lore) to have 15" wheels. However, no one (that I'm aware of) has a window sticker that shows a non-Shelby HiPo with a 15" wheel as an option.
As outlined in my response on BaT, Craig removed the original "hoops" to ensure that the wheels meet DOT standards. Also, as mentioned in my listing, the FoMoCo is present but not visible due to paint, but it's there.
Some non-Shelby wheels have similar centers, but most do not have the "K-H" visible. Those have (at times) been used to create wheels that look appropriate and will still pass judging in all but original / unrestored classes.
In the end, 15"x6" wheels are supremely hard to find. The new owner will be ready to show / go!
Thanks,
Ruben
Hi Ruben,
If you can attest to the authenticity of the K-H HiPo steel wheels in your BaT auction, that's great, but in my opinion, you dramatically reduced the value of the steel wheels by having new DOT 6" rims installed. There had to be a way to save the original wheels as a whole instead of re-rimming them.
I understand having an original 65 Cragar or 67 MagStar or 69-70 Shelby wheel re-rimmed due to pitting and/or loss of chrome, but it is not common to re-rim a steel wheel, like the K-H HiPo wheels and especially a RARE set of 15x6 steelies, unless they were all damaged beyond repair or heavily rusted with holes.
I've had wheels restored/re-rimmed with modern DOT rims and i am not a fan of them due to the fact that the originality factor is now lost. I am sure your rims will bring decent money for what you have made of them, but I still doubt they started life as a genuine K-H FoMoCo 15"x6" HiPo wheel. The only way I would reconsider my opinion is if I saw pictures of the wheels before they were restored.
Good Luck with your auction.
Regards,
George Schalk
George,
I don't know what axe you have to grind, as I've never met nor interacted with you. Although, looking at your past posts, I'm not surprised.
What's really surprising is your attack on my integrity. And I believe you misunderstood me. If you sought to understand versus attack, we might be getting somewhere.
After re-reading your comments, it seems you assumed that the wheels started out (prior to restoration) as 15x6. That is not correct - I have not stated this at all. The auction is for a set of 15x6 Shelby Steel Wheels. These wheels ARE real and started out as 15x5.5". 15x6" are extremely hard to find - ask me how I know. And, again, Craig replaced the hoops. I'm sure he would save the hoops on a 6" wheel but ask him how many he's seen. I'm thinking he knows more than you.
So, to confirm (again): yes - they are 15x6" wheels. No, they did not start out as 15x6" wheels. Are they original Shelby wheels? Absolutely.
I won't get into a back and forth with you over a public forum. You've shown your true colors, and I'll leave it at that - nothing else will be said by me; although, I'm sure you'll get the last word (and I'm guessing it won't be an apology for misunderstanding and attacking my character).
Side note: this is the reason I don't frequent or post on the SAAC Forum like I (and others) used to do. This community should be about building up the hobby / knowledge - not hiding behind a computer to take uneducated cheap shots.
Best,
Ruben
Gonna be big buckos kids
Ruben,
For the record I did not start out by attacking you nor do I have an axe to grind. I am sorry you feel that way. But at this point, the gloves are off!!
There are questions about the wheels and why they were re-rimmed, but not once did you mention the reason, in your BaT auction or on this form until I made a comment giving my theory on why I thought they were re-rimmed. Your most recent comment back to me is when you first openly admitted the wheels were made to look like 15x6 HiPo wheels. Not once did you state that these wheels started out as a 15x5.5 wheel. If you did mention it, please show me if I overlooked it. It seems you are starting to back peddle at this point. I never "assumed" the wheels started out as 15x6, but I believe you were trying to mislead us on this form and in your auction. You stated, "These wheels are mine and I'm the one who listed them, and I can attest to them." after being questioned. Maybe you misunderstood everyone's questions and responses about the wheels.
And going back to previous posts, if someone comes after me and starts an attack, you better believe I will fire back.
Thank you for finally answering the question, "So, to confirm (again): yes - they are 15x6" wheels. No, they did not start out as 15x6" wheels. Are they original Shelby wheels? Absolutely."
If you are hoping someone is going to drop $20k on a set of re-created 1965 Shelby wheels, be honest and don't try to skirt around the facts.
And as for the last word, you are correct, I will have the last word when someone comes after me. As for your integrity, that's all on you dude!!
OK, I take it back. I will make one more comment, George.
You're hilarious!!! 🤣🤣🤣 How can I or others take your comments seriously?!?!
I wish other got as wound up as you. This world would be a much more interesting place.
Regards,
Ruben
Quote from: Shelby_r_b on June 08, 2023, 08:03:09 PM
OK, I take it back. I will make one more comment, George.
You're hilarious!!! 🤣🤣🤣 How can I or others take your comments seriously?!?!
I wish other got as wound up as you. This world would be a much more interesting place.
Regards,
Ruben
I'm not wound up, I'm just glad to see you finally admitted, on this forum and in your auction, what the wheels really are and how you re-created them. That's all anyone wanted to know. I guess my hilarious comments finally got you to speak the truth about the wheels.
Let's hope this is my last word!!
That's makes two of us. 🤣
Here are some pictures of original rim profile, as well as Kelsey Hayes factory stamp, and correct rivets. The first picture is of the wheels listed on BAT. I believe the wheels on Bat are re-created wheels, using new barrels and spiders off narrower KH wheel. Perhaps a better description would be 66 Shelby re-creation Wheels. They do look great, and would be perfect for someone who doesn't need the wheels on their car to be exact or original.
Quote from: Karguy on June 09, 2023, 09:21:45 AM
Here are some pictures of original rim profile, as well as Kelsey Hayes factory stamp, and correct rivets. The first picture is of the wheels listed on BAT. I believe the wheels on Bat are re-created wheels, using new barrels and spiders off narrower KH wheel. Perhaps a better description would be 66 Shelby re-creation Wheels. They do look great, and would be perfect for someone who doesn't need the wheels on their car to be exact or original.
Thanks for posting these pictures!
As I mentioned on BaT, not all wheels were riveted. And, in order to be DOT certified, they cannot be re-riveted; which is why Craig welds them.
Regardless, I appreciate the input!
Ah! Now I see what you're what you're taking about Karguy, regarding the barrels (I'm assuming you're talking about the "hoops" or "rims").
Yes, the hoops were replaced (as mentioned in the auction). There is a difference between the original hoops and the ones Craig puts on. I believe he uses the same hoops for the Cragars and steel wheels.
Here are pictures of the difference I think you're illustrating (these pictures are from Cragars - original versus restored).
Thanks!
"Safety Bead" rims, later version to inhibit un-seating tire bead under in-use side-loading
Quote from: Shelby_r_b on June 08, 2023, 10:54:39 AMIn order to restore the wheels (and to ensure that they are DOT certified post restoration), the hoop has to be removed and replaced with a DOT hoop. Craig will not restore a wheel (Cragar or otherwise) without removing and replacing the hoops with DOTs. Not my area of expertise, but I definitely understand.
I'd like to see the LAW that says you can not use a 1965 process to repair/restore a 1965 part and that it can't retain its original certification. OR that a wheel restoration requires the use of a current type rim design. To make a new wheel yes to repair no. If you can get the hoops cut off without damage and have them replated there is no law I know of that says you can't weld it back on - or re-rivet if that is how it was originally.
It's easy to sell the ".gov requires it". But it's also easier to get and stock current production hoops than remove old ones and send them to the plater then wait for their return. It's also cheaper to use a current off the shelf item than having custom 1965 spec ones rolled. Finally it's easier/cheaper to weld those new rims rather than having the equipment to put the rivets in.
Bottom line - Since I see antique wood and steel spoke wheels being repaired with new rims and spokes I'll wager the liability attorneys, not the law, drives the use of current DOT rims only policy.
The giveaway on original rims vs later rims (barrel) is the distinct taper on the inner part as well as the safety bead. I've seen people fill the bead so you can't discern once tire is mounted but the taper is still the giveaway. For the record all 15x6 Shelby wheels I've seen are riveted and the 15x5.5 are welded. They can be made exact but it requires finding correct pieces and a lot of work. I needed 15 for 3 cars I was doing, 10 15x6 and 5 15x5.5.
I found the 5 5.5 and 7 of the 6's. I had to make 3 6's and believe me I would have rather paid 4-5k a wheel
Ruben your arrows are off in regards to the safety bead.. The safety bead is the raised area best seen in the profile picture of your wheel in reply #15 on the outer portion of the rim to help keep the bead of the tire seated. The corresponding depression can be seen on the inside of the rim once the tire is installed. Your wheels would get a pass in DIV II or MCA trailered just like any other modern Crager wheel that Craig sells or restores given current standards IMO. They would not pass in DIV I or Thoroughbred because of the safety bead which is one of the first things that are checked for on a otherwise correct looking wheel.
After a friendly back and forth this morning with Ruben, I resigned myself to let it go and forget the whole wheel thing. All day I've been wondering why I still have heartburn over the topic of these wheels and Rubens ad, but I finally figured it out. As many of the SAAC members have I have studied extensively the original 15 x 6 Kelsey Hayes wheels used on the 66 GT350 Shelby's. The big problem is this, they are still being described in the BAT ad as "refurbished". No matter what anyone says these wheels are not refurbished they are re-created, there is a big difference. The spiders are Kelsey Hayes, but from an unknown wheel, which is OK, because they all look the same. The barrels are new and welded together They actually look very nice from the outside but really wrong on the inside, also welded not riveted. They are very good looking wheels and will work great for someone who doesn't need correct originals.
Re-created, not refurbished would be the honest description. Still, I wish Ruben the best of luck with his ad, and I hope the wheels find the perfect home.
I have to say: I never thought that a set of steel wheels listed for sale would cause so much consternation.
Tim - thanks for sharing! I remember you sharing that story at last year's SAAC about having to create 3 steel wheels. I cannot imagine how much of a pain that must have been!
Bob - thanks for the clarification. Always appreciated!
Karl - I hear you, and let me ask you this: if someone replaces a fender on their Shelby during their restoration, does this make the Shelby a "recreation"? What about both quarters and a floor pan? Where does one draw the line? I don't know your car, but I'm guessing at least something has been replaced, even if it's just wearables. Does that make it a recreation? I hope not.
Also, you keep referencing 1966 Shelbys. Do you realize that there were two widths of 15" steel wheels in 1965? 5.5" and 6". Does restoring an original 15x5.5" as a 15x6" wheel make it a recreation? I beg to differ. And you're entitled to your opinion.
In any case, I look forward to how this auction ends.
Thanks to all!
We are clearly talking about the 15 x 6" wheels, they are different than the 5 1/2 inch wheels which were typically welded. No, I don't believe changing a fender or a quarter panel or other parts make a real Shelby a re-creation, that would be considered a "refurbished" vehicle or restored. This is like comparing a cloned Car which would be a "re-creation" to a "refurbished" car which would be a restored Car.
All that said, I truly wish you all the luck in the world selling your wheels, they are very nice and I look forward to seeing what the final number is. I hope they find a great home.
I appreciate the well wishes, Karl. Truly!
Have a great weekend,
Ruben