Uncle Tony's take...
https://youtu.be/T6LqnLB7JzQ
I truly never knew Mario ( a.k.a. Captain Lou Albano ) was a gear head !
It would seem so...
You've got to be really bored, with absolutely nothing of any importance that needs doing, to sit thru that! At least not until you've had a couple of alcoholic drinks first! ::)
Scott.
Quote from: pbf777 on June 08, 2023, 08:30:39 PM
You've got to be really bored, with absolutely nothing of any importance that needs doing, to sit thru that! At least not until you've had a couple of alcoholic drinks first! ::)
Scott.
That sums up my situation upon listening. But it did dissuade me from going the efi route.
I read again and again about these systems fixing issues. I spoke to a guy with a spectacular Mach one in PA last month. Said he just installed a Sniper system and it was great BUT! There always seems to be a but. Something about the Tach causing issues with the system.
Hear the same type of thing again and again.
Love my sniper EFI. I've had it for 5 years and it is the best mod I ever made to any classic car. If you have a marginal engine with vacuum leaks or an exhaust leak you will have lots of trouble with EFI. If you don't install it properly and don't know what AFR means, stick with the 100 year old carb technology. If you want perfection with cold start and throttle response, EFI might be for you.
Lots of folks in my club have gone that way. Big trouble. Breakdowns constantly.
Many do have problems if they have the ECU control timing with the hyperspark distributor, which is prone to rfi/EFI. I stuck with my autolite distributor with pertronix and it works great with my factory tach. Fuel percolation and vapor lock is eliminated even with low boiling temps of E10 fuel. Holley quality control on the sniper is poor currently based on what I read in the sniper forums. My 5 year old unit has been great.
Even old school Holley's have issues. "Why is my carb always leaking?" Holley has always had the reputation for being a "Calibrated fuel leak". That said, once its set, and correctly rebuilt, it will/should be fine. Sniper EFI is not perfect. When an aftermarket conversion is made for a 'universal' across the board usage, there are bound to be issues. In my view, only an OEM set up will be reliable. Just me.
^^^ +1 with Scott.
Tony's video makes several good points. He's right about the heat from mechanical fuel pumps being attached to a 220 degree engine block being mostly the cause for high fuel temperatures. The problem is that storing 6 to 12 ounces of E10 fuel in the carb's fuel bowls just doesn't work without percolation. The boiling point of ethanol fuel is too low. With 58 psi of fuel pressure and no fuel storage on top of the heat sink, percolation and vapor lock is not a problem with EFI.
I couldn't solve percolation problems with a carb because my 351w has high performance mods that cause increased heat. My gt350 feels like a gt500 based upon the ease of being able to spin both tires for 25 feet with half throttle from a dead stop with an FMX. I owned a 68 KR for 21 years with a well tuned cobra jet and my gt350 is almost as powerful as the KR was. My car runs way better with EFI.
My Sniper EFI just failed and needs a new oxygen sensor driver and ECU. My car started randomly stalling and I barely made it home. I'm switching back to a carburetor. EFI gave me 5 good years but I no longer trust it on my Shelby.
Quote from: 69 GT350 Vert on June 21, 2023, 08:23:25 AM
My Sniper EFI just failed and needs a new oxygen sensor driver and ECU. My car started randomly stalling and I barely made it home. I'm switching back to a carburetor. EFI gave me 5 good years but I no longer trust it on my Shelby.
A carburetor can be tuned to cooperate at the side of the road. EFI makes that prospect difficult if not impossible especially for a novice such as myself.
"I want to use EFI because it is easier to tune." -some guy with an AOL email address (probably)
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on June 21, 2023, 10:21:58 PM
"I want to use EFI because it is easier to tune." -some guy with an AOL email address (probably)
The current crop of EFI systems are self learning. You install them and let them do their thing.
Personally I don't think they are the right call on a classic Shelby.
The switch over physically is not an easy transition at all. There is "a bit" of challenge to it.
These cars all have quirks that in some cases are unique to the Shelby line and strangely enough are part of the mystique. Taking the carbs out is not the way to go at all.
So the consensus is :
they are good until they are bad.......
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 22, 2023, 08:16:39 AM
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on June 21, 2023, 10:21:58 PM
"I want to use EFI because it is easier to tune." -some guy with an AOL email address (probably)
The current crop of EFI systems are self learning. You install them and let them do their thing.
Uh huh. That isn't what everyone who is throwing one in the trash and buying a carb from me say.
I have no issue with efi. I have issue with people thinking it is a magic wand. You cannot buy your way out of learning how to tune an engine.
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on June 23, 2023, 09:38:08 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 22, 2023, 08:16:39 AM
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on June 21, 2023, 10:21:58 PM
"I want to use EFI because it is easier to tune." -some guy with an AOL email address (probably)
The current crop of EFI systems are self learning. You install them and let them do their thing.
Uh huh. That isn't what everyone who is throwing one in the trash and buying a carb from me say.
I have no issue with efi. I have issue with people thinking it is a magic wand. You cannot buy your way out of learning how to tune an engine.
Well it does depend on what ones own definition of "better" is.
It is not an "easy" conversion on a pre-efi car. Personally knowing more then a few "street rodders", I'm not surprised at one making a statement like that. Thinking about it, I've never seen them chew gum and walk at the same time? I wonder if that is significant?
There are decisions that must be made in the EFI component selection that are not part of the ECU's purpose to decide.
The self learning concept can be over ridden and you can rewrite the programs baseline strategies. Do you need to know what you are doing with that? Sure thing but there are capabilities that the EFI systems have that are not possible with carbs.
It does help if the installer/owner is not a Neanderthal and does not try to "fix" something by hitting it with a club, like some have done with carbs I might point out.
Personally I am perfectly happy with my 2-4 Holley setups on my GT350 and GT500. The Webers are a different story all together, but putting down self learning EFI systems without specific knowledge of what is going on is just foolish and just going to come back and bite you. Well maybe not actually bite, but certainly make earlier uneducated statements embarrassing.
I can't imagine how ridiculous both of my engines would look replacing them with dual throttle bodies and considering that both are very good running examples of '60s maximum carburetion strategies, why mess with them at all?
As an old school guy to begin with, I am always slow to admit the improvements in going from analog to digital systems. Current music recordings and photography are good examples but there are still "artists" around that work in 16 track and film.
Different strokes for different folks. Different ways on different days. No one is wrong. Each just have different perspectives, have their own reasons for that and their own definition of what is good and what is disappointing.
Some of these points are what opens up the Weber 48ida set ups to criticisms or more correctly statements of disappointment. They are not going to make your 289 pull like a 427. A "funny thing" about that though. At wide open throttle, they pull just like an 8 stack EFI system does. They just get there differently with what some might refer to as "low rpm driveability concerns".
It should be pointed out that none of the systems are perfect. Neither are the people involved or the decisions that they make. That I think is part of the reasoning. Imperfect systems created by imperfect creatures.
In drag racing at least, there is a reason that there are "grudge matches" and no one can deny that was motivation between Shelby, Ford and Ferrari, not to mention GM.
Some of us learned to enjoy the spectacle of the bickering and later put our own toes in the water to see what it felt like and one of the side effects being feeling the frustrations of making the systems work for us.
For me it's all fun. Others will never be satisfied or ever could be.
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 24, 2023, 08:17:55 AM
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on June 23, 2023, 09:38:08 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on June 22, 2023, 08:16:39 AM
Quote from: Drew Pojedinec on June 21, 2023, 10:21:58 PM
"I want to use EFI because it is easier to tune." -some guy with an AOL email address (probably)
The current crop of EFI systems are self learning. You install them and let them do their thing.
Uh huh. That isn't what everyone who is throwing one in the trash and buying a carb from me say.
I have no issue with efi. I have issue with people thinking it is a magic wand. You cannot buy your way out of learning how to tune an engine.
Well it does depend on what ones own definition of "better" is.
It is not an "easy" conversion on a pre-efi car. Personally knowing more then a few "street rodders", I'm not surprised at one making a statement like that. Thinking about it, I've never seen them chew gum and walk at the same time? I wonder if that is significant?
There are decisions that must be made in the EFI component selection that are not part of the ECU's purpose to decide.
The self learning concept can be over ridden and you can rewrite the programs baseline strategies. Do you need to know what you are doing with that? Sure thing but there are capabilities that the EFI systems have that are not possible with carbs.
It does help if the installer/owner is not a Neanderthal and does not try to "fix" something by hitting it with a club, like some have done with carbs I might point out.
Personally I am perfectly happy with my 2-4 Holley setups on my GT350 and GT500. The Webers are a different story all together, but putting down self learning EFI systems without specific knowledge of what is going on is just foolish and just going to come back and bite you. Well maybe not actually bite, but certainly make earlier uneducated statements embarrassing.
I can't imagine how ridiculous both of my engines would look replacing them with dual throttle bodies and considering that both are very good running examples of '60s maximum carburetion strategies, why mess with them at all?
As an old school guy to begin with, I am always slow to admit the improvements in going from analog to digital systems. Current music recordings and photography are good examples but there are still "artists" around that work in 16 track and film.
Different strokes for different folks. Different ways on different days. No one is wrong. Each just have different perspectives, have their own reasons for that and their own definition of what is good and what is disappointing.
Some of these points are what opens up the Weber 48ida set ups to criticisms or more correctly statements of disappointment. They are not going to make your 289 pull like a 427. A "funny thing" about that though. At wide open throttle, they pull just like an 8 stack EFI system does. They just get there differently with what some might refer to as "low rpm driveability concerns".
It should be pointed out that none of the systems are perfect. Neither are the people involved or the decisions that they make. That I think is part of the reasoning. Imperfect systems created by imperfect creatures.
In drag racing at least, there is a reason that there are "grudge matches" and no one can deny that was motivation between Shelby, Ford and Ferrari, not to mention GM.
Some of us learned to enjoy the spectacle of the bickering and later put our own toes in the water to see what it felt like and one of the side effects being feeling the frustrations of making the systems work for us.
For me it's all fun. Others will never be satisfied or ever could be.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it"
[/quote]
"If it ain't broke don't fix it"
[/quote]
Excellent point!
My worthless two cents...
The best, and most reliable cabs 'I' have used: OEM Autolite/Motorcraft 4300 series, Autolite 4100 series, Carter/Edelbrock, and the QJ.
Three of the collector cars I have have Holleys on them. They run well and I rarely have to adjust them. Another car has an Autolite 4100. Same deal. That being said, I installed a Fitech 400 hp system on my friends 1970 El Camino mild 383 small block about 5 years ago and he hasn't had a single issue with it and he loves it. He likes it because he doesn't know much about cars. I prefer the carburetors because more than likely they're not going to get you stuck someplace. If you have some knowledge, you can usually get them going. Electronic ignitions are great too but they can get you stuck also. When I go on a trip in one of my cars I always carry a points distributor just in case the electronic system fails.