This weekend I bought a pair of Cobra Open Letter valve covers. The guy I bought them from is very knowledgeable and is on the forum now and then. One of the covers had the "Buddy Bar" casting on the inside and the other cover did not.
The seller had two pairs and both pairs only had "Buddy Bar" casting on one of the two covers. One set had the left cover with BB and the other set had the right cover with BB. Both pairs didn't have the BB casting on the same side as each other. The seller acquired each pair separately from different people at different times, so there was no possible mistake of interchanging the pairs. One pair was previously restored and the other pair is still greasy and unrestored.
Is it common to have a pair of valve covers with only one BB casting between the two covers? I just assumed(that's where I probably went wrong....assuming... ;D.) that both covers would have the BB casting mark on each cover, but the history behind these covers are known from real GT350 cars. The seller and I talked about it for a while and compared both pairs to each other until we concluded that both sets didn't have any differences from each other on the outside. I am not arguing with it, just curious and trying to learn something new. What have you seen? Thank you. - Brian
Quote from: silverton_ford on November 19, 2018, 02:50:43 PM
This weekend I bought a pair of Cobra Open Letter valve covers. The guy I bought them from is very knowledgeable and is on the forum now and then. One of the covers had the "Buddy Bar" casting on the inside and the other cover did not.
The seller had two pairs and both pairs only had "Buddy Bar" casting on one of the two covers. One set had the left cover with BB and the other set had the right cover with BB. Both pairs didn't have the BB casting on the same side as each other. The seller acquired each pair separately from different people at different times, so there was no possible mistake of interchanging the pairs. One pair was previously restored and the other pair is still greasy and unrestored.
Is it common to have a pair of valve covers with only one BB casting between the two covers? I just assumed(that's where I probably went wrong....assuming... ;D.) that both covers would have the BB casting mark on each cover, but the history behind these covers are known from real GT350 cars. The seller and I talked about it for a while and compared both pairs to each other until we concluded that both sets didn't have any differences from each other on the outside. I am not arguing with it, just curious and trying to learn something new. What have you seen? Thank you. - Brian
I have always seen both sides . I have several sets here and they all have it on both. With that said I will keep a open mind given your observations. I am learning new things all of the time. Maybe others have seen the single casting mark?
Quote from: silverton_ford on November 19, 2018, 02:50:43 PM
Is it common to have a pair of valve covers with only one BB casting between the two covers? .........
Hasn't been my experience.
I bought an ex-Cobra pair with one marked and one not.
The covers were designed for 1964 model year Cobras (more specifically 1964 model year HP289 engines). The first run(s) did not have any mention of who cast them. At the time there was just one wooden pattern to make one type casting. Raw castings received secondary machining operations to create oil fill/vent and PCV valve side covers. Fairly quickly the Buddy Barksdale's company information was added which was real simple, affix pressed metal tape to the inside wooden master.
Through Cobra production just one wooden master is known. If you have a PCV valve side without maker's text that has never been reworked would you be interested in trading for cover that is marked? Send me a PM.
Not to get off topic too far but mid 1963 through some time in late 1965 / early 1966 there were multiple wooden masters created to produce this type cover. Only one pattern was used during Cobra production 1963-64 and parts made from that pattern are very easy to detect from the outside. I have no idea how many different wooden masters were made but on one Saturday I had finished parts from five different masters on the bench at one time. Only two really stood out. One master had a mistake in how one of the fins was cut and that mistake transfered to the castings made from it. The mistake is very easy to spot. The other surprise was one version was taller inside than any other and cleared the roller rocker arms on the engine I had I could check such things with.
I have documented what I can about engineering numbers, factory applications, and timing starting with early 1964 engines in Cobras. Send me an e-mail address by PM and I will send you a copy.
I appreciate the responses. Thank you. Bob, Jeff, Charles and Dan.
After work tonight, I will try to upload a couple pictures.
Dan, I will send you a PM. Thank you for your thorough response.
I don't currently have a set without both sides marked, but distinctly rememember having at least one set in the past with one side marked and the other not.
Jon
Hi Brian,
The best way to create two original sets is mix and match two originals with two repops. I own one of these sets and was not smart enough at the time or too trusting. This was back in circa 1986. I fell for the scam. The original BB cover was on the table at the swap meet in Wichita KS. The other non-BB cover was still out in the truck. I made the purchase without confirming the other was a BB marked cover and forgot to check when going to the truck to get the non-BB cover. Now, enough time has passed if these two covers were on an engine all this time they would have the patina to look legit as an original pair. I would be wary. I do know the TIGER valve covers only have the one side with the BB markings. But I have not heard an original COBRA hollow lettered covers with no markings. Now the fact you have two opposite sets form the same guy does support my story very well. He may have accidentally swapped them way back when creating this anomaly. I'd go back and get the other set to re-pair and resell the repop set.
Best of luck
Cory
The way I know the Open Letter COBRA valve covers whether if it's for 65/66 GT350's or 289 Cobra as having the Buddy Bar markings, EXCEPT for the valve covers with the open letter "Cobra powered by Ford" centered with no PVC & Breather tube.
Cheers,
~Earl J
The very fist castings in 1963 didn't have any text inside. A single casting could be machined to get either an oil fill tube or a rubber grommet final assembly.
I believe there was a company that made a version of 'reproduction' that lacked any inside text. Ones made in 1963-64 without or with maker's text intended for new Cobras are easy to tell from all else if you know what to look for.
Increased production for new GT350s and over the counter sales brought in new master patterns and a revised design for pcv sides in May 1965 (per the Shelby parts book).
Quote from: SFM5S000 on November 19, 2018, 05:51:34 PM
The way I know the Open Letter COBRA valve covers whether if it's for 65/66 GT350's or 289 Cobra as having the Buddy Bar markings, EXCEPT for the valve covers with the open letter "Cobra powered by Ford" centered with no PVC & Breather tube.
Cheers,
~Earl J
The original made in 1963 versions of off set to one side lettering in either PCV or oil fill final assemblies did not have any mention of Buddy Barksdale anywhere. Most of the ones made for Cobra before GT350s came out do have maker's identification. New patterns were created during build up of 1965 GT350s with the last engineering model called out in the May 1965 parts book.
Hello Dan,
Thank you for the correction. I am unaware of the manufacturing practices of what would or would be. As I stated "The way I know the ..." isn't correct. I'll admit it I 'm wrong, but it's just how I knew them.
I learned something new today. Thanks Dan.
Cheers
~Earl J
Quote from: SFM5S000 on November 19, 2018, 07:13:10 PM
Hello Dan,
Thank you for the correction. I am unaware of the manufacturing practices of what would or would be. As I stated "The way I know the ..." isn't correct. I'll admit it I 'm wrong, but it's just how I knew them.
I learned something new today. Thanks Dan.
Cheers
~Earl J
No problem. Like most Cobra subjects this one is really complicated. I had no idea how complicated until I started hunting a pcv side cover for CSX2551. I knew that covers made in 1963-64 had several differences from ones made 1965-66 but I was just confused to a standstill until I sorted out the many versions I gathered up (purchased or borrowed) and started comparing to factory pictures, new car road tests, and genuinely unrestored cars. CSX2551 came to us with 1964 made version oil fill side (most likely original to the car) but the pcv side was one that came out during 1965. Somewhere in time it got swapped. It might have been when the car got one of the middle versions of "small letter" intake. There is some evidence that over time the car had two different 1965 GT350 style induction systems.
A major issue has been that so many cars (Cobras and GT350s) got their original rocker arm covers replaced for some reason or another. There was a flash of activity in the 1980s when some new old stock SERVICE/ACCESSORY individuals and sets (DST packed the service sets) hit the market just in time for the first "restorations" of many Cobras. Sure, they were new old stock but the trouble was to DST they were all the same so you might have found a cover assembly made in the summer of 1963 or sometime in 1966 under any of several specification revision levels from any of several wooden masters. If didn't help Cobra owners that DST often put RBW marked hex cap screws in SERVICE/ACCESSORY kits; SA didn't use RBW hex cap screws on CSX2201 and later cars which got most of this type cover set.
It's funny about this post. I just remembered I have in my collection of "stuff" an NOS in the original box passenger side open letter valve cover. Never been mounted. Here it is, I dug it up and took a few pics.
Other than being a service replacement, is it anything special? Probably not.
Cheers
~Earl J
Hi Earl, Your service part looks like an assembly line part with "BUDDY BAR CASTING CO." markings on the inside. Now just need to find its mate.
Thanks for sharing
Cory
I posted some pictures here: https://flic.kr/s/aHskMDJhNL (https://flic.kr/s/aHskMDJhNL) For anyone that wants to analyze details.
I have been talking to Dan. Wow, such a nice guy and a wealth of knowledge! He is very helpful. Thank you Dan!
The history behind these valve covers on how they evolved through 1963 to 1966 is very fascinating.
Hi Brian,
Did you get a hold of the seller and get the other set to re-mix and match?
Best of luck
Cory
I have 2 NOS valve covers in the original box. Both have buddy bar casting lettering. The RH cover always has a hyphen between the words BUDDY-BAR-CASTING-CO.
Hi Iceman,
Good eye on the hyphens on the pax side cover. I did not realize.
Thanks for sharing.
Cory
One Saturday afternoon I compared castings made from five different wooden master patterns. One pattern was used to make first version castings without maker's identification and covers with after a metal tag was added to the pattern. I didn't think at the time to take close up pictures of all the texts but I gathered up three I could find. How many different versions of text there were, I have no idea.
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/3253/some_text_versions.jpg) (http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/89095)
Mine don't have the dash between the buddy bar,
Dave
for sale in Ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Buddy-Bar-REAL-DEAL-Valve-Covers-Shelby-Cobra/173637493174?hash=item286d99e1b6:g:VyIAAOSwxPNbx1Eh:rk:1:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Buddy-Bar-REAL-DEAL-Valve-Covers-Shelby-Cobra/173637493174?hash=item286d99e1b6:g:VyIAAOSwxPNbx1Eh:rk:1:pf:0)
Quote from: Dan Case on November 21, 2018, 04:04:18 PM
One Saturday afternoon I compared castings made from five different wooden master patterns. One pattern was used to make first version castings without maker's identification and covers with after a metal tag was added to the pattern. I didn't think at the time to take close up pictures of all the texts but I gathered up three I could find. How many different versions of text there were, I have no idea.
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/3253/some_text_versions.jpg) (http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/89095)
Dan ,any sequence of production noticed between the different text styles that you pictured?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on November 22, 2018, 11:24:08 AMDan ,any sequence of production noticed between the different text styles that you pictured?
I don't remember, I wasn't in that frame of mind at the time. I was going through all the sets I had and some sets I borrowed trying to come up with a matching pair in similar condition for a Cobra completed in the spring of 1964. After doing some trading with people I borrowed from I traded off most of my better ones. I still have two or three singles and a new pair of reproductions that a person restoring their Cobra bought and then decided not to use.
I used one GT350 time period pair for my play engine.
It is really interesting that two people have old boxes marked with 1966 model year part numbers (S2MS-6A582-B).
Text in quotes below are direct quotes from the Shelby American parts book dated May 31, 1965. The numbers at right are retail and dealer prices.
Oil Fill On Right Hand Side : Cobras with 1964 HP289 engines."C3RA 6582- B2 Valve Cover with Filler Tube R/H (Bud-B) Buddy Ea 17.97 14.47" (This was the second version. The number of the original version with chrome plated fill tube seems to have been lost to time, at least we haven't found it, but might have been C3RA 6582- B. Both came out mid 1963.)
"C3RA 6582- C Cover, Rocker Arm LH Budy Bar Ea 18.68 13.08" (I believe, can't prove, LH side PCV covers in Cobras with 1964 HP289 engines. For Cobras any raw casting could have been machined to be either an oil fill or PCV side.)
Others listed in the same parts book. Because this is a service part book we can't know what might have been production, service, or both."C3RA 6582- B4 Valve Cover Aluminum RH (1964) Ford (Buddy) Ea 24.75 20.13" (The 1964 notation is interesting. The original versions came out mid 1963, it seems SA defined them differently for some reason. I wonder what a B3 suffix might have been?)
"C3RA 6582- C3 Valve Cover W/Filler L/H (Bud-B) Buddy B. 18.92 15.24" (I read left hand fill as the GT350 application.)
"C3RA 6582- C5 Valve Cover Aluminum LH (1964) Ford (Buddy) Ea 24.75 20.13" (Again that 1964 notation is interesting. For some reason the suffix and price is now different with Ford being listed as the supplier first. Can't help but wonder if the C3 and C5 suffixes are switched misprints. Service parts books can be confounding.)
"C4RA 6582- A Cover Rocker Arm RH Budy Bar Ea 17.74 12.42" (A new version which is listed for as part of the "S1MK 6582 Valve Cover Kit, For Mustangs, C4RA-6582-A, C3RA-6882-C, Gaskets, and Bolts Kit Pr 47.85 35.25", I wished they had indicated oil fill or not after each individual number.)
My biggest unknown is when the last version of PCV side cover come out? Was it before or after the May 31, 1965 parts book was printed. Note that the S2MS versions indicated above are not listed in the May 31, 1965 parts book.
Saw these on eBay, not sure if they pertain to this discussion, the seller describes them as original and made by Ansen...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173658439096 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/173658439096)
From the seller's description...
"This listing is for a pair of ORIGINAL used aluminum open letter Cobra Small Block Ford Valve Covers
Will fit 260 289 302 351W
These were used on the 65-66 shelby's and cobra's, and also available for your production Mustang through local dealers.
These are NOT the Buddy Bar cast pieces, they are from ANSEN, the other manufacturer Ford used in the 60's.
These are not the recent reproduction pieces, these were pulled from a motor back in the late '80's....."
Quote from: s2ms on November 25, 2018, 03:37:35 PM
Saw these on eBay, not sure if they pertain to this discussion, the seller describes them as original and made by Ansen...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173658439096 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/173658439096)
From the seller's description...
"This listing is for a pair of ORIGINAL used aluminum open letter Cobra Small Block Ford Valve Covers
Will fit 260 289 302 351W
These were used on the 65-66 shelby's and cobra's, and also available for your production Mustang through local dealers.
These are NOT the Buddy Bar cast pieces, they are from ANSEN, the other manufacturer Ford used in the 60's.
These are not the recent reproduction pieces, these were pulled from a motor back in the late '80's....."
I believe the open letter valve covers have been available reproduction since the late 70's .
I checked my Buddy Bar. One is the "wide" style and one is the narrow. The Oil Filler side is wide, the PCV is narrow. Looking at FLEABAY, going rate around $1000? I also have a pair of the late 1970's, never installed, in Ford box....dated on the box 1982. Looks like those go for $500?
And a third pair I had on my coupe....used, oil stained....
Maybe I should attend a national show and cash out....
Quote from: rhjanes on November 27, 2018, 06:13:50 PM
..... Looking at FLEABAY, going rate around $1000? I also have a pair of the late 1970's, never installed, in Ford box....dated on the box 1982. Looks like those go for $500?
And a third pair I had on my coupe....used, oil stained....
Maybe I should attend a national show and cash out....
There is a difference in "sold" price and "asking" price. There is a pair currently listed asking $1,200, but has been listed for quite a while. I wouldn't take this as the current market.
Looking at sold valve covers when typing in "Buddy Bar" as the search on ebay sets have sold for $300, $200, and $260 in the past couple weeks. Some need some help here and there, but the $1200 set isn't perfect either. Just a quick observation of an easy place to see them sell other than by word of mouth or at swap meets.
At SAAC 43 I saw an original unrestored set in the swap meet priced for $400 and sold in a large group of parts, so it isn't known what exactly the price was if the guy got the entire lot in a bundle price.
I would say a perfect set should bring more than the ones recently sold and are probably not part fair for this comparison.
I think they are the best looking small block valve cover ever produced. All of my small block cars will get a set. I still need a few more sets.... :)
Thanks for the insights!
Dave ,
Ansen did NOT do sand cast valve covers of any kind. PERIOD. Where these sellers come up with these hallucinations is beyond me. SAI switched because the Ansen die cast covers were less than half the cost of a Buddy Bar sand cast cover , and they were made in half the time. CS's buddy ( later partner) George Spears supplied the ( then) special "wrinkle paint" to Ansen.
I'm sure you already knew all this.
Randy