Can anyone recommend a "go to" 289 build package/kit that will get me in the 450+hp range? I'm going to start up a 65 FB project soon and have a 289 (Possible HP) engine out of a car that was parted out that I can repurpose for this project. The FB body is from a 289 4v but not an HP or GT.
thanks for any input you can lend. Don
You are going to need some cubic inches to get there. A stroker kit with at least 331-347 will get you on your way, the rest of the engine like heads. intake ,carb , cam , compression will be your personal preference. Good Luck- :)
Back in the day, I drove my 65 Fastback as a daily driver and for autocross. Many moons ago, I tore into the car for a rebuild. I decided to keep the 289 for sentimental reasons, plus it was sized right for my intended use. Today, my circuitous 25-year rebuild is finally reaching its conclusion, though the engine was completed a while back. I thought my engine-build experience might be of some use to you as a data point.
I intend to regularly drive the car and use it for cruises and shows, so I want it to run and idle comfortably. I plan to retire my Corvette from autocross and start using the Mustang next year. Not trying to be competitive - just having fun at GoodGuys and in the SCCA CAM-T class. I may also want to do occasional track days – we'll see how confident I feel in the car at speed. I didn't strive for max. horsepower, but rather wanted low/mid-range torque for the tight turns. I also wanted the engine to be able to tolerate this abuse as much as practical.
My engine builder, Matt Compton at Performance Solutions (PSI Racing) in Boise, was a career engineer at Edelbrock – which likely explains my heavy use of their products. He retired from Edelbrock, moved to Boise and ran his performance shop here for many years. I got his name during a shop tour with Jeff Beynon and Bruce Couture at Modern Driveline – the 5-speed conversion guys in Caldwell ID. Afterwards, I asked around, mostly in the drag racing circles, and found that Matt came widely recommended. Unfortunately, his health concerns meant that my engine was one of the last he would build.
After discussing my intended use for the car, we decided to maximize the torque, making the curve as flat as practical, but still have a reliable engine. At the risk of igniting a controversial topic, I'll add that in his opinion, my emphasis on reliability meant we avoided stroking the engine. The engine was built to run reliably at 6500 RPM.
Here's what we ended up with:
• 289cid C-Code block, over-bored 0.060", K-code internals targeting 10.5:1 compression
• Edelbrock Performer RPM Top End Roller Kit
• Edelbrock Performer RPM Intake Manifold #7121
• Edelbrock Camshaft #2221
• MSD distributor #8352, MSD ignition kit & coil
• EFI: I plan to run EFI, but the unit was not available when we ran the engine dyno, so we used a carb. I don't recall the carb make & model, but Matt said it was sized properly to not be a constraint for the dyno testing. He said I might get a modest power increase from the EFI.
• Headers: I now have a set of Stan's Tri-Y headers, but I didn't have them when we did the test. We used long-tube headers on the dyno. Matt said the Tri-Y's would boost the torque compared to his headers but will likely reduce max horsepower. That's a good tradeoff for me since usable torque is what I'm after.
I'll add a couple drivetrain details. Obviously, they don't pertain to the engine specs, but I thought you might want to see the whole system:
• T-5 5-speed
• 9" rear-end, 3.89 ratio, WaveTrak differential
The corrected engine dyno runs showed maximums of 349 HP @ 6500 and 338 ft-lbs at 4300 RPM.
(http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/245-291118234701.jpeg)
I plan to run a chassis dyno when I get the car running. I'm hoping for ~300 ft-lbs of RW torque. We'll see.
There are other systems and configurations available that might give you a bit more grunt than the Edelbrock setup, but if you want a lot more horsepower, I suspect that 427heaven is correct that you'll need more displacement or forced-induction.
Have Fun!
I will offer two major changes and some opinions for the next time the motor is apart.
1 - 331 Stroker kit. Invisible externally, and makes a tremendous difference in how the "grunt" feels. I have run a SCAT 331 kit on a 68 302 block for four years now in a dedicated track FFR Cobra, and have the rev limiter at 6500. No problems at all, and that RPM is safe for the combo. I would look very seriously at doing that.
2 - Heads - So many choices, but just about anything aftermarket flows better than stock. If you are looking for the stock external look, less choices.
3- Oil cooler and better pan. If you will run it hard. pay attention to lubrication
4 - I run the FITECH system. Took some tuning and work, but has a better "feel" than the carb.
I actually like the results of the 347 kit. It's still good into the high 6000's. Gives you more torque then the 331.
You need to go to better heads. I went with AFR 1388's shaved to 54cc's. Then you need a better intake, CARBS and cam.
That all will put you where your initial target was. Around 450.
I've got no oil consumption issues with the set up even though the oil control rings overlap the pins.
If you dot all of your i's and cross your t's you are pushing 500 with this set up without the grief of a big block. It's a real street sleeper but you need to gear it right to run with the current new offerings from the Big 3.
I always like it when the kids are embarrassed by the old guy.
Don where are you located?
Speed equals money... How fast you want to go? ;D
Quote from: 427heaven on November 30, 2018, 01:18:29 PM
Speed equals money... How fast you want to go? ;D
...until no one can catch me. 8)
Cobra Automotive. Enough said....
We never discussed budget and who you know for parts sources or a helping hand at any capacity. From my experience any one with half a brain can get to 300 hp with basic stock components, for a chunk of change you can get to 350 pretty easy but after that plateau it gets a lot more expensive for every 50 hp more. If you are not well connected in speed circles I would suggest buying some good used engine if you have a shop you can take it to for an update on condition before purchasing. The cost difference between a 300 hp engine and a 500 hp engine in a small block can be staggering if your unprepared what speed costs. :-\
It isn't that 500hp is expensive, it's that 300hp is very cheap. You can put together a 300hp 302 for around $3,000. 500 costs more.
I'm located in San Antonio. thanks for the input guys
One of our former members, Kiwi, built a 331 stroker on his 289 block using AFR 1388, 185cc heads, Cobra intake and 715 Holley.
He got 415hp on the West Tech dyno.
It is published on the 'net'. I had it in my bookmarks but a gremlin stole the link. You can find it by searching for AFR 1388 tests.
My opinion is somewhere he screwed it up since it should have brought over 450hp but Randy can more accurately describe the results.
The point being, the engine went into his 65 GT350 "Tribute" and looked very stock in there.
I did the same thing with the 347 kit and a few minor changes to the concept, so that's where I'd recommend that you go.
The 331 is a more reliable 8,000 rpm engine but the 347 is more of a street combination.
My motor made 435 at the crank on a dyno, aggressive Howards cam, worked Alum heads, 10:1 compression.
About $5,500.00 in the build
Quote from: Cobrask8 on December 01, 2018, 02:18:55 PM
My motor made 435 at the crank on a dyno, aggressive Howards cam, worked Alum heads, 10:1 compression.
About $5,500.00 in the build
Which heads? How many cubes?
Kiwi, a great guy, did us all a favor detailing that build on our old forum.
I'm surprised there is not more of this here.
Anyway I feel his numbers were right in line IMHO. Dynos can never be compared except for trend comparisons. Numbers can also be pumped on any build, on any dyno, for peak numbers which may not be your most usable combo.
On a flat-top 331, C7FE, w an archaic intake one could run 1.7s and a single plane and get the same longblock to appear more powerful perhaps....
The OP was looking for 500 hp does anyone have any experience with 500 hp small blocks and cost associated with the build?
No. How about 499?
Actually, I'd refer you to the 351c in KJspeed's 68 GT350 that John Barnes built. I believe it dynoed at 545 and 450 lb-ft at 5,000.
Well we started out looking for a 289 making 450 plus... Then we switched to a 351 c which is a much more capable engine. ;D
Kiwi knew his stuff. I shredded many a Goodyear with him, during our 25 years of working together and testing/building/thrashing/writing about cars.
IMO: That buildup he did is a great affordable setup for a small-block street car that occasionally sees a racetrack. I hope someone has it saved from Forum 1.0.
Yes, I would like to see that reposted.... :)
This is the Mustang Monthly article.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/1504-how-to-build-an-easy-400hp-333ci-small-block-on-a-budget/
Thanks Doug ! ... 8)
That's really tough to see my friend KIWIS add and picture again... A terrible loss :'( So 400 seems easily accessible but what about another 50 or even 100hp that's where the price will shoot to the moon. Like to see someones build, and price if they are willing to share.
Quote from: 427heaven on December 01, 2018, 09:07:01 PM
( So 400 seems easily accessible but what about another 50 or even 100hp that's where the price will shoot to the moon. Like to see someones build, and price if they are willing to share.
Well yes and no. The potential is there but some of the information is proprietary and no one is going to give a detailed instruction sheet and put it for free inside of a Cracker Jack box.
Some things need to be experimented with AFTER the initial build. For one thing, the engine as built is under cammed. It doesn't match the flow numbers of the heads.
The flow numbers of those heads, out of the box are better then stock Boss 302 heads. You need to deduct the valve clearances from the lift to get the actual valve lifts. With that set up simply put, you need 1.7 ratio rockers. That helps.
To me, the performance of the intake manifold is suspect.
Two things. Thing one. Cobra Automotive runs that manifold on their 292's that make 620hp. That is at 8,000 rpm.
The runner thicknesses on Ford intake manifolds is very thin. A die grinder needs to used judiciously and only on runner intake intersection points plus the manifold needs to be extrude honed.
620hp from CA is obtained with a set of computer designed headers. The price starts at $3,500, "but you gotta' leave the car".
Thing two. If you look at the dyno sheet for kjspeeds 351c with Webers, you will immediately (or should) start comparing similarities and differences.
The first thing is that the cubic inches is similar to a 347. The second thing is that the flow numbers on the Cleveland heads are similar. The rpm power points are similar with the engine topping out at about 6800 rpm. There is about 130 hp difference.
Webers. The first thing is that on both the Cleveland and the Windsor, both will immediately add about 80 to 85 hp. With appropriate changes to accommodate...dyno proven.
Equalizing that engine, if that is even possible, to Kiwi's engine, you would need to go to a similar 180 degree manifold and carb. Let's just say for the purpose of comparison, that manifold exists (it does) and that we loose the 85 hp the Webers provided?
OK. So that brings us to about 460hp on that iron head Cleveland.
Now the purpose of those AFR 1388 heads was to put the power production potential of a Windsor in the same group as the Cleveland. It does. So here's the question, where's the 45hp missing from Kiwi's engine?
Is the answer only proprietary? Maybe?
As far as sitting there with a calculator, 427heaven, that's difficult to do accurately. Some money is going to be spent foolishly. Lots of time is going to be invested sometimes with little or reversing results, and no pay for your time.
Kurt's engines start at $30,000. Webers are around $4,000. Kiwi's engine looks like it was around $5,000, not including what he paid his son to clean the block ( ;D). I put the calculator away. I broke several pounding on the keys and everyone stays away from me when I start pounding away on the keyboards. That right there is wisdom gained from previous experience.
My solution to find the additional horses was to go to a 2x4 setup. 1.7 rockers. 347 cubes.
There is something substantial to be gained there but it has it's drawbacks. First off, there is a lot more horse manure to pick up in the yard first. My kids have moved out so I have to clean it up myself. Then I get tired and need to take a nap and forget what I was up to on the engine development?
Worse. My fingers hurt now from pounding on this freakin' keyboard.
Kiwi did a good job. I guess I miss him too?
539hp @ 7000, 452 torque. Driving is believing as it pulls hard all the way to the 7200rpm red line. (http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/153-120518091506.jpeg)
I feel a little like special counsel Robert Moeller when asking questions about a 289 making 450+ HP. I didn't ask the question blindly without any understanding of cost associated with a 289 making big power. The question was asked when I already had the answer,so for someone like Roush, Yates, Kurt Vogt, and a handful of others charging 30-40k is out of reach for the little guy racer. Most here wont admit whats inside of their pride and joy or cost associated with its build, so if the OP is new to all this maybe 5000.00 for 350 Hp is good enough. We will leave the 351c out for further discussion as it is much more capable of making inexpensive power. :)
Quote from: 427heaven on December 02, 2018, 09:11:14 AM
We will leave the 351c out for further discussion as it is much more capable of making inexpensive power. :)
I have one of those too. "Inexpensive" is a relative term. I wouldn't call it that. My relatives won't give me any money for that.
The point with the new Windsor heads is that those are now competitive with the Cleveland heads. HP should be similar?
These Windsors pull 940:
Quote from: TGI FORD on November 30, 2018, 10:29:23 PM
I'm located in San Antonio. thanks for the input guys
If you want to stay local and have someone build it for you try John @ Mission Auto Parts in San Antonio. He is well known for his Ford expertise .
Randy
Quote from: camp upshur on December 01, 2018, 05:48:28 PM
Kiwi, a great guy, did us all a favor detailing that build on our old forum.
I'm surprised there is not more of this here.
Anyway I feel his numbers were right in line IMHO. Dynos can never be compared except for trend comparisons. Numbers can also be pumped on any build, on any dyno, for peak numbers which may not be your most usable combo.
On a flat-top 331, C7FE, w an archaic intake one could run 1.7s and a single plane and get the same longblock to appear more powerful perhaps....
Did you know that was the first engine he "built''? He drove all they way down to my house in Anaheim to take apart the ( surprise .060 over that never ran hot) 289 in his '65. Devastated by the .060 over bore , I gave him a standard bore 289 block I had as a new foundation and some direction for a 331ci build and he was off in a blurr to do it. His writing style was so eloquent that he made it sound like he was a seasoned veteran pointing out all of the things a "novice" should watch out for.
A VERY easy ci to hp number for most anybody to get these days is 1.2hp/ci , so a 400 hp 331ci engine is common. for 450 a little more cam and compression is needed. For 500+ more compression , really good aluminum heads and a solid roller cam are needed.
RIP Kiwi,
Randy