Anyone looking for a vintage race car?
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1964-FORD-FALCON-SPRINT-RACE-CAR-223703
Bob Johnson car, saw it this summer, looks amazing
A great piece of early Shelby history for sure.
In the description.
My question
What is a "Super T-10" vs a regular T-10?
Its a later transmission , used different ratio s and better synchros.
How does a 64 vin , and fiberglass parts make it a '63 prototype?? What am I missing. Also when did SCCA allow fiberglass body panels on "production" cars?
Randy
Quote from: acman63 on December 09, 2018, 09:33:08 PM
Its a later transmission , used different ratio s and better synchros.
Thnx for explanation
Quote from: gt350hr on December 10, 2018, 01:44:02 PM
How does a 64 vin , and fiberglass parts make it a '63 prototype?? What am I missing. Also when did SCCA allow fiberglass body panels on "production" cars?
Randy
:-[ :-\ :'( Is this a real car that has been owner adjusted to suit his needs, or a back yard special?
In talking with one of the other forum members a while back about SCCA Falcons..the fiberglass hood, rear deck lid and fiberglass front fenders were legal in SCCA A/S (A sedan)...the fiberglass doors are not legal.
Kranky,
I am not doubting your word at all , but I would like to see the "rule book" on that one.
Randy
To Randy....unfortunately I don't have a copy of the SCCA rule book for 1967 but in talking to TA22 (Gary) who referred the question about Falcons to Mike Eddy (ex-Cordts/Dittemore-TA Falcon)...Eddy had mentioned that for SCCA Trans-Am racing and SCCA A-Sedan racing, the front hood, rear deck lid and front fenders were legal (although his car currently has metal front fenders) and that the FIA legal fiberglass doors (homologated for rally racing) were not. If this was British Touring cars after 1966....then this would all be legal for Group 5 spec built cars in Europe.
You would think that the SCCA tech inspectors would have caught this issue during a tech inspection and noted the lightness of the door and the different sound it made when you shut the door. The following link notes that the doors had all of the "roll up windows":
https://www.rcnmag.com/blog/bob-johnson-ford-falcon-races-again-after-30-years
Kranky is absolutely correct !!!
This is a real deal car originally Prairie Beige with red interior............documented ownership chain from new..................I have interviewed Don Sesslar extensively about this car. Purportedly built by Dearborn Steel Tubing(unconfirmed by me). Documented race history.
Last driven at Pocono Speedway @ SAAC ?? in the '80's in its current livery (owned and driven by Jim Harrell in this livery). Engine expired during the event and parked-----prior owner now resides in a Federally subsidized gated community....current owner is well known throughout the vintage racing, SACC and Historic Trans Am communities with a eyebrow raising reputation.
several of us have tracked this car for 30 years or more
Randy...you should google Bob Johnson and Don Sesslar look at the race results..........smooch
I have NO doubt as to the history of the car , NOR am I trying to discredit it AT ALL. "My" question is simply about the fiberglass panels being SCCA legal.
"I" had never heard about that. "To me" fiberglass panels would be difficult to get the SCCA to accept. I am open to education and learn something new every day. The description of the car has some issues like "prototype '63" when it clearly has a '64 vin , and the 999 part is a real stretch as far as having some significance (again IMHO) .
Randy
Understood Randy. The FIA/ACCUS homologation papers had all of the fiberglass components approved. The SCCA, it seems, made changes to the homologated items based upon their perceived safety concerns. That was done routinelky for both A/Sedan and Trans Am. That said, fiberglass panels did run at various times on three Falcons that I am aware of --the Johnson/Harrell car, the Pike car and the Cordts/Dittemore Falcon. Fiberglass doors or bumpers were never allowed. This was confirmed to me by both Sesslar and Pike............ We can take that for what its worth. Since I wasn't there, it's the only evidence I am aware of---I am certainly open to hearing more. Regarding the alleged prototype, 999 claims or description..............I have no evidence to prove or disprove...caveat emptor
UPDATE......I have new information: the 4th owner of 43 years served 7 months as a guest of the state, was released and has been a model citizen since his release. The event the car was last run was SAAC 7.
I read an interesting story on the internet that this car was actually a 63 that had a 64 body fitted so the dash and some other major components were are a tell tale sign of some racing monkey business that tech inspectors were not privy to. ;) If this is that car it is interesting how things were done back then!
You might be thinking of Mike Eddy's falcon. It is a 63 with 64 body panels. For some reason they gave 64's a 500 lb or so break over the 63 model.
That's the one thanks! Velly intelesting ;)
Mike's panel change is well documented since his father was the one doing the work! It IS a '63 chassis and has a '63 vin. Not like the car in question.
Gary ,
Thanks for the education. I can't "know it all" and never profess to. As I said I learn something new every day. Facts often give ego a kick in the nuts if you give facts the opportunity. I'm waiving the white flag .
Randy
Mikes door jamb
(https://i.imgur.com/Mh60h1Sl.jpg)
gt350hr & kranky, Here's a link (from those other guys ;) ) that shows select pages from the S.C.C.A. year books, 1967 included. second one shown, there is a page there pertaining to body work.
Mike
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7850.0
Nothing about substitution of fiberglass body panels . Unless i'm blind.
The reference to compliance with 1966 FIA regulations must be where the usage of alternate body panels comes in. If anyone has a copy of those FIA reg's maybe that would explain the rules on body panel makeup.
this is what I have.........
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/car_attachment/1487694601/homologation_form_number_1250_group_t.pdf
Now it makes sense. Alan Mann Falcon stuff IIRC. I really like how they mention attachment as "screwed , glued" they forgot tattooed. LOL The SCCA probably accepted that "as is" . I want some of those "aluminum stampings", like they were ever made! talk about a broad description. SCCA would ask for part numbers and availability of said parts.
Randy
The second owner apparently was Jim Harrell. I remember seeing it in his shop 1969(?)
when he was racing his "69 Mustang in A Sedan and selected Trans Am races.
Jim is still building "special" cars in the Carolinas. He may be a good resource for answering
questions from that era. I seem to remember that some of the photos in the Boss 302
Chassis Manual were of his '69 build.
You are very correct, Tom...good suggestion....I have sent him an inquiry.
....a color photo...for those skeptics of Black and White............
Spent two and a half hours with Jim Harrell tonight................a true gentlemen.
What I can confirm: the car is the real deal, purchased from Bob Johnson (with a wink and nod, built from a car purchased from a used car lot--not DST or H/M) , raced in A/S by Johnson and Harrell with ALL of the fiberglass parts noted in the Homologation papers--including doors, it was sold by Harrell without suspension or drivetrain (ALL of which was transferred to another car), the homologation papers I have and shared with him are distinctly different from his recollection. Oh and ................ if you want add'l information...you'll have to call me---sorry..........history is interesting GG
Great job Gary! That should end any speculation as to it's origin. Excellent race history all the way back to the used car lot.
Bump, this may be of interest in this thread.
Mike
https://www.streetmusclemag.com/features/coming-home-mike-eddy-and-the-unlikeliest-of-trans-am-race-cars/
Here you can see how the 63 striker panels are still there with 64 quarters welded to them.
(https://i.imgur.com/sfMkDeoh.jpg)
Quote from: Tom Honegger on December 17, 2018, 04:37:42 PM
The second owner apparently was Jim Harrell. I remember seeing it in his shop 1969(?)
when he was racing his "69 Mustang in A Sedan and selected Trans Am races.
Jim is still building "special" cars in the Carolinas. He may be a good resource for answering
questions from that era. I seem to remember that some of the photos in the Boss 302
Chassis Manual were of his '69 build.
Tom,
I don't recall where I found this or the caption info, it's noted as 70 Daytona Jim Harrell.
regards
jim p
Thanks for posting, just noticed what looks to be a '67 Shelby behind the photographers.
Quote from: 6R07mi on January 26, 2022, 10:54:23 PM
Quote from: Tom Honegger on December 17, 2018, 04:37:42 PM
The second owner apparently was Jim Harrell. I remember seeing it in his shop 1969(?)
when he was racing his "69 Mustang in A Sedan and selected Trans Am races.
Jim is still building "special" cars in the Carolinas. He may be a good resource for answering
questions from that era. I seem to remember that some of the photos in the Boss 302
Chassis Manual were of his '69 build.
Tom,
I don't recall where I found this or the caption info, it's noted as 70 Daytona Jim Harrell.
regards
jim p
Is that a Shelby in the background? Looks like a 67.
Kudos to whoever painted the blue car pictured above. It would have been tempting to have finish welded the quarters and cleaned all of that up - and a big mistake . ..
I think I have seen the orange car at Monterey. Cool car!
John
This car has ZERO ties to Shelby history other than being built by a guy who drove for CS "It was driven and built by Shelby team driver Bob Johnson". It never ran TA in period so it's not eligible for the Historic TA group (where the cars bring big money). Here is the page on the rebodied 63 http://www.historictransam.com/Drivers/MikeEddy64Falcon17.html - They are trying to hype this car as special and of big historical importance. It isn't - but it is a neat A Sedan race car that was raced by a noted driver. But that hype will also need to be backed up with the original log books which are not mentioned in the spiel. Also are the FIA papers included merely a printout of the historic file https://historicdb.fia.com/ in the FIA website or a current (and expensive) inspection report by the FIA showing the car conforms to the historic build requirements anf therefore legal to compete in European historic races like Goodwood (PS you can build a car today with zero history and the FIA will license it for Euro historic racing - one of the continuation R Models has been certified)?
With FG parts it was not TA legal until after 1972 when SCCA began to allow fiberglass parts for transam cars. That became known as the 2nd era. The "modern era" began in 1980 with full tube frame cars - that still required the use of a factory stamped steel roof section. The rest of the body could be FG and up to 80" wide. These were known as silhouette cars. By the early 90s the whole body could be FG.
This is a page from the 1972 GCR for TA cars.
That being said when Ford did the FIA paperwork they did allow FG panels and the SCCA did follow FIA rules for sedan cars. This is from FIA appendix J for Touring cars - 6413F - 1964 Falcon Sprint. The 999 serial number means nothing they started a 00001. The second is from the FIA paperwork.
98SVT - was 06GT. Before you make a judgment on this car and its eligibility to run in the HTAG, you may want to do some additional research. You are correct, it has no ties to Shelby American, however, according to the second owner - Jim Harrell, it does have TA history(this has been documented by me and Craig Conley)......................and has participated with the HTAG in recent events. Gary
Quote from: TA22 (Gary Goeringer) on January 27, 2022, 03:33:23 PM
98SVT - was 06GT. Before you make a judgment on this car and its eligibility to run in the HTAG, you may want to do some additional research. You are correct, it has no ties to Shelby American, however, according to the second owner - Jim Harrell, it does have TA history(this has been documented by me and Craig Conley)......................and has participated with the HTAG in recent events. Gary
There is NO mention in the ad of it having run a TransAm race in period. It would also have been illegal as a TA car with the FG parts until 1973. Which TA races did it run? If that TA history is well documented (photos, log books, race results) somebody stole this car at 80 grand. TA history "according to owner" doesn't cut it.
I dont have the history in front of me......
In interviews with many of the drivers in period, many of these 'details' were overlooked in the interest of a full field.
And frankly, this is an old ad, Conley bought the car....and I really dont have the time or desire to prove it here.
Gary
1967-Sebring 4 Hour-Trans-Am race #2:
#33-13th oa/started 13th on the grid-Bob Johnson/Don Sesslar-Ford Falcon
https://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1967/Sebring-1967-04-01t-033.jpg
Quote from: kranky on January 28, 2022, 12:30:25 PM1967-Sebring 4 Hour-Trans-Am race #2:
Somebody stole that car should have hit $120-150 if they had pushed TA history - even 1 race counts.