This one annoys me. 5S089 is listed for sale. It states that it was restored by Tony C. It also shows the stock dash with 29283k miles on it and also states it has original "Black License Plates". Original un-modified car.
First off this was Rod Creiger's car. (long time NorCal Member / supporter) who passed away (RIP). Rod had built it up into R Model configuration and open tracked it with NorCal. It was in an R Model configuration for almost 2 decades if not more, with an R Model dash. It also wore personalized California white plates "5S089" for such a long time. This was also a highly modified car when Rod bought it. It once upon a time had a straight front axel and set up for a big block.
So Really???
~Earl J
I thought this car was recently purchased...........
Wrong radiator but no big deal.
Seems like many 65's have had a great deal
Of work done to them.
This other posting will answer some questions about the car:
http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=4562.0
Wow, strait axle? FE means no shock towers, I guess then a different front clip?
It appears this car has had a masterful structural restoration?? Seriously. If that's the case>> I'm impressed.
usually those rims were the first thing ditched back in the day
Quote from: SFM5S000 on January 29, 2019, 08:56:36 PM
This one annoys me. 5S089 is listed for sale. It states that it was restored by Tony C. It also shows the stock dash with 29283k miles on it and also states it has original "Black License Plates". Original un-modified car.
~Earl J
I will play Devils Advocate: The Car was Restored. The new Owner may have gotten the original Dash Cluster when he purchased the Car which would be why the low miles. The new Owner may have gotten a set of Black Plates when he purchased the Car. The Car was restored BACK to original and therefore is no longer Modified, it is NOW an Un-Modified Original Car.
Quote from: tesgt350 on January 30, 2019, 06:57:55 AM
Quote from: SFM5S000 on January 29, 2019, 08:56:36 PM
This one annoys me. 5S089 is listed for sale. It states that it was restored by Tony C. It also shows the stock dash with 29283k miles on it and also states it has original "Black License Plates". Original un-modified car.
~Earl J
I will play Devils Advocate: The Car was Restored. The new Owner may have gotten the original Dash Cluster when he purchased the Car which would be why the low miles. The new Owner may have gotten a set of Black Plates when he purchased the Car. The Car was restored BACK to original and therefore is no longer Modified, it is NOW an Un-Modified Original Car.
We see other cars like this that had been modified and then put back to original. "Original" states it's current condition, not it's history. Should there be other categories such as "Virgin Original" and "Restored to orignal" or maybe "Survivor original"? Just a question, not an argument or attempted defense.
You need to talk to the seller to see how they are representing it's history to determine if it is being misrepresented. I would be surprised if it was being misrepresented.
Wow, Stephen care to commit?
From Stephen's ad:
"This was always a well-kept, unmodified car, and the owner commissioned Tony Conover to complete a very comprehensive rotisserie and concourse-level restoration in the mid 2000's, returning the car both cosmetically and mechanically to like-new."
This sentence would mislead me to believe that the car spent its life in like-original condition and only required a restoration to bring it up to concours condition.
Brent
Boy do I miss that popcorn emoji.
Does anyone else miss the days when you bought what you liked and no one got hung up on terms.....original, modified, un-restored, restored, numbers matching, born with, virgin original, original paint... etc.....
I know since the value of these cars got into the six figures they are more investments than anything else but man I miss the simple. It is just a land mine waiting for some poor soul to lose their shirt on a few marketing/sales words.
This is one of the many reasons a reputable expert should be called in to evaluate the car.
Quote from: BGlover67 on January 30, 2019, 11:50:13 AM
Boy do I miss that popcorn emoji.
Here ya go. Click on Pic.
Quote from: tesgt350 on January 30, 2019, 12:32:31 PM
Here ya go. Click on Pic.
Guess parents never told him to chew with his mouth shut?
Caveat emptor (/ˈɛmptɔːr/; from caveat, "may he beware", a subjunctive form of cavēre, "to beware" + ēmptor, "buyer") is Latin for "Let the buyer beware".[1] Generally, caveat emptor is the contract law principle that controls the sale of real property after the date of closing, but may also apply to sales of other goods. The phrase caveat emptor and its use as a disclaimer of warranties arise from the fact that buyers typically have less information about the good or service they are purchasing, while the seller has more information. The quality of this situation is known as 'information asymmetry'. Defects in the good or service may be hidden from the buyer, and only known to the seller.
A common way that information asymmetry between seller and buyer has been addressed is through a legally binding warranty, such as a guarantee of satisfaction. But without such a safeguard in place the ancient rule applies, and the buyer should beware.
Thought the registry has the info about modifications?
I am shocked, a car dealer over representing a car?
I guess I would like to see some "before" shots, before I passed judegement...on the accuracy of the descriptions
:o
Quote from: CharlesTurner on January 30, 2019, 01:38:38 PM
Thought the registry has the info about modifications?
Indeed.
A lot of that info is in 2011 Registry .
Im not sure I have a copy handy, can someone post the info about body mods?
Some would say "concours restoration" does not imply a lack of history of anger management therapy use/abuse. The removal and/or replacement and refurbishment to a standard resets the clock in many ways, especially when expense is not spared. Last I knew a Conover restoration was widely regarded, but ANY restoration is only as good as the next expert judgement/assessment, and every judging should ideally ignore prior inspections.
Caveat emptor, and let's see what future judging holds.
Tony does Beautiful work.
Per Pete request
Shock towers removed is in direct contrast to the claims made by the seller. Thats not my opinion, that is a fact
From the dealer
QuoteAlso of great importance is the rust- and damage-free original body shell that displays all of the Shelby American modifications performed in just the one year of 1965.
QuoteThis was always a well-kept, unmodified car,
I am not up to speed on 65s, but would not the numbers have been changed if the shock towers were out?
I don't think so....
I must admit that it never dawned on me that that the original shock towers could have been removed, thence, the original shock towers could have been reinstalled. In which case one of those overwrought 'original sheet metal' claims could be made!
In practice though shock tower, or front clip, removal and reinstall can be a messy, difficult and time consuming affair for even a superb metalsmith. Drilling individual numerous spot welds, dressing the sheet metal, soundly fastening, and then attempting to recreate the appearance off an unmolested spot weld dimple (which had previously been drilled and worked) is almost theoretical.
I have seen a heavily raced 1965 GT-350 which had developed strain and spider-web fatigue cracking in the shock towers at the attachment points of the upper control arms. Those replacements, while sound, were anything but 'concours' in appearance.
Would love to see this car in person. Photos present well.
No reason to assume Ford hidden VINs on aprons would be compromised with shock tower removal on a 65,...but if done messy the Shelby SFM "stamp" on passenger side could be impacted.
Repeat "could"
Owner not aware of (possible) shock-towers removal until last week with Howard Pardee conversation - Have seen no pictures of any evidence of them actually being done - Howard said it was a planned removal and install of a 427 motor but IT NEVER HAPPENED. Once Howard gets back from WI he will scan and e-mail all paperwork and docs on car so that I can then post for all to see and owner will be (carefully) removing both fenders to clearly show the FORD VIN #'s.
Stephen Becker
Quote from: Coralsnake on January 30, 2019, 03:09:31 PM
Shock towers removed is in direct contrast to the claims made by the seller. Thats not my opinion, that is a fact
No, it is not a fact at all. Hearsay gets a lot of people in allot of trouble...........
Stephen Becker
i understand, your are saying the Registry is incorrect? That's entirely possible.
The 1965 GT-350 Registry is good reading and well intentioned, but, as seen here, can hardly be used to determine the bona fides of a car.
Most of my cars info is from an index card I filled out at Pacific Stereo Anaheim at a COCOA meeting for the very first registry 1975-1976??
Since then it has been amended. By whom I don't know as the car has always been in my possession.
It is interesting unattributed anecdotal submissions which could be helpful or misleading.
So many untouched pristine 1965's have shown up over the past 10 years, and so much great minutiae is continually being fleshed out by owners, restorers, archivists and boosters that today's fleet of 1965 GT-350s bears little resemblance to the fleet of the 1970s when many of these cars were competitive at the amateur level.
This is news?
I agree. Compiling the Registry is an arduous task. It should be used only as a guide. The Registrar can weigh in if the buyer or seller needs that.
Quote from: stephen_becker on January 30, 2019, 04:17:37 PM
Quote from: Coralsnake on January 30, 2019, 03:09:31 PM
Shock towers removed is in direct contrast to the claims made by the seller. Thats not my opinion, that is a fact
No, it is not a fact at all. Hearsay gets a lot of people in allot of trouble...........
Stephen Becker
Hearsay: An out of court statement offered to prove the truth of the matter for which it asserts. Inadmissible! With several exceptions such as 1. Admission by a party opponent; 2. declaration against interest; 3. excited utterance and so on. Any time a witness says "He said" or "She said" you must object. That rule was drilled into me in 1987. Ah yes, the three year reign of terror that was law school...
Richard E.
So the advertising is accurate? This car was always box stock original?
Quote from: shelbydoug on January 30, 2019, 07:02:57 PM
So the advertising is accurate? This car was always box stock original?
Nope, I have printed photos of 5S089 I took when it was in R model trim at sear point circa 2002ish. I'll have to dig them up.
~E
Quote from: deathsled on January 30, 2019, 06:49:41 PM
Quote from: stephen_becker on January 30, 2019, 04:17:37 PM
Quote from: Coralsnake on January 30, 2019, 03:09:31 PM
Shock towers removed is in direct contrast to the claims made by the seller. Thats not my opinion, that is a fact
No, it is not a fact at all. Hearsay gets a lot of people in allot of trouble...........
Stephen Becker
Hearsay: An out of court statement offered to prove the truth of the matter for which it asserts. Inadmissible! With several exceptions such as 1. Admission by a party opponent; 2. declaration against interest; 3. excited utterance and so on. Any time a witness says "He said" or "She said" you must object. That rule was drilled into me in 1987. Ah yes, the three year reign of terror that was law school...
Richard E.
Richard, has Stephen offered to hire you yet? Just kidding...
$600 in 1974 to $500K in 2019! Who'da thunk? ::)
I'll do my best to help him find a good lawyer. I'll see if I know anyone. Lol! Mind you,I did defeat a motion for summary judgment last week on a slip and fall case 12 inches from a downspout that created an unnatural accumulation of ice that fanned out like a baseball diamond. How the defense thought that there was no genuine issue of a material fact is beyond me. But then again they bill by the hour and the insurance company was the one that paid for it. Okay, sorry for the diversion. Back on to that Shelby! I would analogize to soldiers who come home from war missing a limb and have an orthopedic replacement. They are no less the man than when they left for war. They are that same man. Ergo, a Shelby that was brought back to original is the same Shelby despite changes made over the years. The soul is the same. Buy what appeals to your inner voice.
Quote from: deathsled on January 30, 2019, 08:47:57 PMI would analogize to soldiers who come home from war missing a limb and have an orthopedic replacement. They are no less the man than when they left for war. They are that same man. Ergo, a Shelby that was brought back to original is the same Shelby despite changes made over the years. The soul is the same. Buy what appeals to your inner voice.
I like that........a lot. 8)
Quote from: SFM5S000 on January 30, 2019, 08:13:35 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on January 30, 2019, 07:02:57 PM
So the advertising is accurate? This car was always box stock original?
Nope, I have printed photos of 5S089 I took when it was in R model trim at sear point circa 2002ish. I'll have to dig them up.
~E
That would be great! I would be happy to, once verified as this car, share them with the current owner/seller and with anyone that is interested in buying the car.
SGB
Even if the front shock towers weren't cut out, the ad still doesn't address that the car was a competition model for years. Were the fender wheel-well openings cut out, was a roll bar welded in, were additional holes drilled for the electric fuel pumps, etc. The ad is misleading with its claim of being "always a well-kept, unmodified car" but spending a decade plus as a modified r-model.
Quote from: BrentW on January 31, 2019, 09:29:45 AM
Even if the front shock towers weren't cut out, the ad still doesn't address that the car was a competition model for years. Were the fender wheel-well openings cut out, was a roll bar welded in, were additional holes drilled for the electric fuel pumps, etc. The ad is misleading with its claim of being "always a well-kept, unmodified car" but spending a decade plus as a modified r-model.
Ya
Quote from: BrentW on January 31, 2019, 09:29:45 AM
Even if the front shock towers weren't cut out, the ad still doesn't address that the car was a competition model for years. Were the fender wheel-well openings cut out, was a roll bar welded in, were additional holes drilled for the electric fuel pumps, etc. The ad is misleading with its claim of being "always a well-kept, unmodified car" but spending a decade plus as a modified r-model.
There is absolutely nothing
purposly misleading about the ad. I went back and re-reviewed what you were alluding to (The ad is misleading with its claim of being "always a well-kept, unmodified car" but spending a decade plus as a modified r-model.) & made changes and clarifications as was relevant & necessary. Neither I nor the current owner/seller has/had any knowledge of former race history, etc. The car is 55 years old and has had more than one owner so as more history on the car comes to light, good/bad/indifferent I will be updating the text accordingly.
Stephen