Hi everyone, 67 Shelby GT500 with 427 side oiler engine, Shelby serial number 67400f4a03137 would anyone have any history on this car, owner says engine was either factory which I do not belive, or Dealership installed. Car is for sale. I would like some facts before I go take a look at it,Thankyou in advance.
Nothing in my copy of the registry that indicates a factory or dealer installed 427. As for being dealer installed. No paper work... As they say... Extraorinary claims require extraordinary proof. Most of us wish we had a dollar for everytime we've heard this story. Because of the intrinsic value put on them word of mouth means nothing and I am sure some one thinking they are buying the missing "super snake" is going to wind up filing suit.
-Keith
I used to hear of the "dealer 427" fairly often, and from what I have read here, it was just the thing to claim for many, many owners.
Back in the 70's this claim had value. Nowadays, due to Al Gore's internet, P-f-f-f-t!!!!! Show me the receipt (except that too can be faked and weathered).
Info on 10-2010: Car in Palmerston North, Manawatu, New Zeland. "Engine changed by first owner". White/black 4 speed "Z' in vin
I'm curious, what/why is their perceived added value in a "dealer installed" engine? If it's not from the factory, why does it matter whether it's dealer installed, or local speed shop, or back yard? I've have same question with stripes. For show, if you documentation for dealer applied stripes it's ok??
Also, would you rather have the original 428 or whoever installed 427?
Quote from: Hockeylife on February 14, 2019, 01:56:17 PM
I'm curious, what/why is their perceived added value in a "dealer installed" engine? If it's not from the factory, why does it matter whether it's dealer installed, or local speed shop, or back yard? I've have same question with stripes. For show, if you documentation for dealer applied stripes it's ok??
Also, would you rather have the original 428 or whoever installed 427?
. Makes a big difference if you want to show the car.As delivered.....
^^
Yup
Never seen such Unicorn 🦄 tho....
Quote from: Hockeylife on February 14, 2019, 01:56:17 PM
I'm curious, what/why is their perceived added value in a "dealer installed" engine? If it's not from the factory, why does it matter whether it's dealer installed, or local speed shop, or back yard? I've have same question with stripes. For show, if you documentation for dealer applied stripes it's ok??
Also, would you rather have the original 428 or whoever installed 427?
Dealer installed is a over used ploy to try and add legitimacy to a otherwise non stock item.In concours a non stock item is given a pass if reasonable proof of actual Ford dealer installation can be provided to support the claim and as long as it was done prior to delivery to the first owner when new. It is when reasonable proof to support the claim is expected that things typically fall apart. ;)
The value of the 427 in these cars is the adaptability of them to racing applications. It's a great basis for a race engine OF THE ERA. If you aren't going to race it competitively, it is of little benefit. In fact, it's more of an expense legacy.
So in the case of a 67 GT500, unless it is one of the three invoiced 427's, a 427s additional value is questionable at best. In fact, considering the move to originality in all makes, it is likely a detriment.
In the case of the '68 W version, there is NO value to it as it was built. It is essentially a 390 GT with a 427 "hydraulic block". That engine has less racing value then a 428cj does.
Most people are not going racing or trying to set any records these days except myself possibly. So for the few the best or nothing comes into play, 50 years ago these engines ruled the tracks and the streets because of that there is a certain allure to it. Many prefer a big fat steak for a celebration dinner as opposed to a big fat burger, both good but very different. Or the OL LADY could walk around with a GUCCI BAG or a WALL MART plastic bag, both carry her items but are very different. 427s and 428s are both good but very different, it comes down to personal choices we make.
Quote from: 427heaven on February 15, 2019, 08:37:42 AM
Most people are not going racing or trying to set any records these days except myself possibly. So for the few the best or nothing comes into play, 50 years ago these engines ruled the tracks and the streets because of that there is a certain allure to it. Many prefer a big fat steak for a celebration dinner as opposed to a big fat burger, both good but very different. Or the OL LADY could walk around with a GUCCI BAG or a WALL MART plastic bag, both carry her items but are very different. 427s and 428s are both good but very different, it comes down to personal choices we make.
Sure. The 69 GT500 that John Paradise had comes to mind though. Why stop at just a 427? Why not a GMC blower sticking up out of the hood? Taste may be the argument but the expression, "bad taste costs no more" seems to come into play at some point? "You" like a Mohawk, pink on one side, purple on the other? OK. That's why there is a return to "original" these days.
Stock 427's were only a good solid starting point. To make them run, there are other things involved.
I was in Eber's 427SC way back at Pocono. The Speedo said 178. The tach said 8200rpm and the fuel pressure gauge was pulsing back and forth like my heart beat was.
Here comes Smith zooming by us in the turn. Don't you think Ken punches it?
Now the point is that the first day home, Ken went to start the car and take it for a spin. "The engine was making funny noises like there was a bolt flying around in there?" So what happened?
Engine go Gablouie! Gus (Zumeda) told him don't turn this engine over 7,000. "But I had the same engine builder Dick Smith had?"
Yes but try Smith's Pond block and titanium rods, etc, etc.? Ken said, "it's ok, they could save the aluminum block".
Point is, only Ford ran Ford parts at Lemans. I think it might have been 'Gas Ronda' that they are still trying to pry the 427's crank out of the track in New Jersey? "Hey Bob...you ever get that out of the track?" (He just smiled...apparently no?)
Seems like that engine is more reputation then anything else? Good to make movies about. Hey. I like 427's. I admit owning a few myself. Can't say that I can still afford them now a'days? Something about the symmetry of how the 4-2-7 goes together on the fender badge? People get mesmerized by it...all but the Hemi guys. They got stuck on the 6. Probably never got to the 7 in school? Who knows right? All those Mopar Taxi cabs with the push button Torque-flites. Hard to miss a shift unless you hurt your finger? 8)
^^^ ;D :o ??? ::)
Great post, thanks 8)
Right you are Doug.....even with a brand new 427 Side Oiler Short Block.... it had to be taken apart & extensively reworked so it would live up to 7000 rpm...always followed this rule..Build it to go to 8000 rpm...never take it past 7000..... 8)
Quote from: Wedgeman on February 15, 2019, 02:07:40 PM
Right you are Doug.....even with a brand new 427 Side Oiler Short Block.... it had to be taken apart & extensively reworked so it would live up to 7000 rpm...always followed this rule..Build it to go to 8000 rpm...never take it past 7000..... 8)
Hum. I had this discussion with one of the mechanics that was with the "continuation Mark IV" GT40's at either the SAAC Convention at Millville or at VIR? I forget which one. It's all bluring into an orgy of horsepower depravity now but I digress.
Now we were talking about 427's that originally went into the Mark II's and Mark IV's. Now in reality, the engine wasn't their part of it. They literally built the cars, pop rivet by pop rivet. Something like 6,000 in each car, but I digress again...my question was why do you build a car around an engine that is intended to go up against the Ferarri's turning upteen bazillion rpm's with an engine limited to 6,000 rpm?
The response was, "what? WTF you talking about?" "You didn't know that?" Huming and hawing and looking back and forth at each other then saying, "well yeh (<NC southern accent), the valve springs only were good for a max of 7,000rpm!"
I said, "that's my point. You're got heads, rods, pistons and a forged steel crank good for 10,000 rpm's. Why?" Shrug shoulders. "I do know?"
The answer really is the 427 is a good base start. Especially for a production based engine BUT it's just a start. Don't worry though. After 65 years, they got it right (but not with stock parts ;) )
Quote from: vtgt500 on February 20, 2019, 08:06:17 AM
I enjoy the speculative aspect of enthusiast threads like this. Fun to read the myriad of rationalizations for engineering, budgeting and marketing decisions. Now with near total passing of those in the game, the tales have taken on a life of their own. I consider myself near blessed to have worked with senior, Ford engine designers in the late '70s. Some who saw my youthful reverence of their experience as a sounding board for the 427 program. Still have a multi page set of original block drawings locked away having promised to never show them to anyone. Since, other drawings of various revision levels have appeared. Let the tales go on.
That's what a Legend is. Something bigger and far beyond what it ever was in reality.
Speaking of 427 GT 500's, does anyone recall the VIN's of the two factory 67 427 Shelby's?
Not counting #544 Super Snake.
Guys ya have to remember even when the cars were new we CHANGED things to our liking. When the Mustangs came out the aftermarket stuff was enormous. I had a new 65 Mustang conv. Within a few months I did a dual exhaust. While later a Cobra intake an new mag wheels. Did my 68 the same way.Fast forward to 69. Bought a new 70 Mach1 CJ Drag pack car. Month later had new Crager SS rime and a set of lakewood traction bars. Then a set of headers. Guages and BIG tires. Then swapped my CJ for a med riser 427. 8) Come on we didn't treat them like a garage queen. Life was a lot different them. Oh.. Robie Ford (Dorchester,Ma.)also did engine swaps and NEW cars with 427's
Quote from: rcgt350 on February 20, 2019, 12:50:19 PM
Speaking of 427 GT 500's, does anyone recall the VIN's of the two factory 67 427 Shelby's?
Not counting #544 Super Snake.
#0289 - #0544 - #1947 are the only three SA factory built 427's.
Quote from: Grumpy on February 20, 2019, 01:13:57 PM
Guys ya have to remember even when the cars were new we CHANGED things to our liking. When the Mustangs came out the aftermarket stuff was enormous. I had a new 65 Mustang conv. Within a few months I did a dual exhaust. While later a Cobra intake an new mag wheels. Did my 68 the same way.Fast forward to 69. Bought a new 70 Mach1 CJ Drag pack car. Month later had new Crager SS rime and a set of lakewood traction bars. Then a set of headers. Guages and BIG tires. Then swapped my CJ for a med riser 427. 8) Come on we didn't treat them like a garage queen. Life was a lot different them. Oh.. Robie Ford (Dorchester,Ma.)also did engine swaps and NEW cars with 427's
I don't think any header mfg's started making a non custom over the counter steel tube headers for a 427 in a Mustang body until late 68 or 69.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 20, 2019, 07:54:30 PM
I don't think any header mfg's started making a non custom over the counter steel tube headers for a 427 in a Mustang body until late 68 or 69.
[/quote]
I don't know about 68/69 thing. Remember the after market stuff was really strong and available. 67 had 390s so I am sure they had headers for it. We had a local guy Tubular Automotive in Rockland Ma.(Still in business) That custom made them. Made 2 sets for us. We cut the car up when it had 8k on it. Well I made it like I wanted it. 8)
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 20, 2019, 09:27:24 AM
Quote from: vtgt500 on February 20, 2019, 08:06:17 AM
I enjoy the speculative aspect of enthusiast threads like this. Fun to read the myriad of rationalizations for engineering, budgeting and marketing decisions. Now with near total passing of those in the game, the tales have taken on a life of their own. I consider myself near blessed to have worked with senior, Ford engine designers in the late '70s. Some who saw my youthful reverence of their experience as a sounding board for the 427 program. Still have a multi page set of original block drawings locked away having promised to never show them to anyone. Since, other drawings of various revision levels have appeared. Let the tales go on.
That's what a Legend is. Something bigger and far beyond what it ever was in reality.
Legendary... (Adjective) This is its meaning- Famous, Popular, Celebrated, Famed, Renowned, Acclaimed, Illustrious, Remembered, Unforgettable. This engine stands alone and certainly doesn't need any introductions. With enough street cred and race track cred to shine like a beacon of light 50 years after its intro speaks volumes. No down sides unless spending 15 plus dollars a gallon of fuel is taken into consideration. ;D
Quote from: 427heaven on February 20, 2019, 09:54:56 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 20, 2019, 09:27:24 AM
Quote from: vtgt500 on February 20, 2019, 08:06:17 AM
I enjoy the speculative aspect of enthusiast threads like this. Fun to read the myriad of rationalizations for engineering, budgeting and marketing decisions. Now with near total passing of those in the game, the tales have taken on a life of their own. I consider myself near blessed to have worked with senior, Ford engine designers in the late '70s. Some who saw my youthful reverence of their experience as a sounding board for the 427 program. Still have a multi page set of original block drawings locked away having promised to never show them to anyone. Since, other drawings of various revision levels have appeared. Let the tales go on.
That's what a Legend is. Something bigger and far beyond what it ever was in reality.
Legendary... (Adjective) This is its meaning- Famous, Popular, Celebrated, Famed, Renowned, Acclaimed, Illustrious, Remembered, Unforgettable. This engine stands alone and certainly doesn't need any introductions. With enough street cred and race track cred to shine like a beacon of light 50 years after its intro speaks volumes. No down sides unless spending 15 plus dollars a gallon of fuel is taken into consideration. ;D
I wanted to get a holiday designated for it but the Chevy guys objected. They couldn't stop laughing too. I hate when that happens.
Quote from: Richstang on February 20, 2019, 01:51:51 PM
Quote from: rcgt350 on February 20, 2019, 12:50:19 PM
Speaking of 427 GT 500's, does anyone recall the VIN's of the two factory 67 427 Shelby's?
Not counting #544 Super Snake.
#0289 - #0544 - #1947 are the only three SA factory built 427's
Thanks Rich!