My 67' GT500 has the Arning drop with the Global west spacers. I just really got a good look at header clearance as well. A bit on the low side. The Arning drop should only lower the car about 3/8" and the springs 1" . To the lip of the wheel opening edge is 23.75". Anyone else have a measurements from floor to weel opening edge centered with the wheel centercap?
-Keith
images rotated ...
Are those Hookers?
Mine runs the vintage HOOKERS, and measures 23 3/8 tall in the front with 225 x60x15 tires, looks or hangs down the same.
Quote from: 427heaven on February 14, 2019, 06:29:55 PM
Mine runs the vintage HOOKERS, and measures 23 3/8 tall in the front with 225 x60x15 tires, looks or hangs down the same.
The Hooker Super Comps have never changed. However, They are really low.
-Keith
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on February 14, 2019, 07:36:53 PM
Quote from: 427heaven on February 14, 2019, 06:29:55 PM
Mine runs the vintage HOOKERS, and measures 23 3/8 tall in the front with 225 x60x15 tires, looks or hangs down the same.
The Hooker Super Comps have never changed. However, They are really low.
-Keith
Bob Gaines had a really great set of headers on his '67. He had posted pictures of them on the old crashed forum. I don't know if he still has those pics. They had a lot better clearance then the Hookers which I think really are the problem. They were big tube, non tri-y and full length as well. Nice.
That's the difference now between $500 and $3500 headers? Unfortunately BB Mustangs are maybe the poster child for impossible or nearly impossible scenarios.
Whether they were worth the effort to get them in, you'd have to ask him.
JBA headers are long tube block huggers. They are cost prohibitive. I think about 1300.00 these days.
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on February 14, 2019, 08:49:13 PM
JBA headers are long tube block huggers. They are cost prohibitive. I think about 1300.00 these days.
I've only seen the JBA tri-ys. I've never seen j's "ultimate" 67 GT500 individual, long tube header. Apparently only J has them on his car?
mine hang low like that and are flat on the bottom now from many hits on low areas
Quote from: csheff on February 15, 2019, 11:00:21 AM
mine hang low like that and are flat on the bottom now from many hits on low areas
That's one way of fixing them? 8)
My 68 has low hanging headers as well although they've not contacted the ground (yet). With the bias ply tires (shown) the distance from the ground to the bottom of the rocker pinch weld is 9-1/4" on the front and 10" at the rear. With 235-60R15's it drops to 9" front and 9-1/4" at the rear. The suspension is fairly stiff though.
Quote from: kjspeed on February 15, 2019, 01:07:35 PM
My 68 has low hanging headers as well although they've not contacted the ground (yet). With the bias ply tires (shown) the distance from the ground to the bottom of the rocker pinch weld is 9-1/4" on the front and 10" at the rear. With 235-60R15's it drops to 9" front and 9-1/4" at the rear. The suspension is fairly stiff though.
I save every picture you post. Love your car..........and I am not a '68 guy. yours is just so well put together...
These are reported to not drag on the ground.
http://www.fordpowertrain.com/390428triy.htm
Those would have been a good choice....
Those are tri-y's. Why would you use them?
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 15, 2019, 02:40:31 PM
Those are tri-y's. Why would you use them?
Because they don't drag on the ground.
Have you followed NASCAR engine building lately? Sewer pipe exhaust has been largely set aside as that is not where the horsepower is hiding.
This is not to say tiny exhaust works, but 4 huge equal length pipes have marginal gains.
Taking this to the street and it is even more evident.
I am running a 2.5" exhaust to the shelby extensions which it is necked down to slip on like factory. I don't see a need to run a 3"+ exhaust like so many do.
Quote from: 2112 on February 15, 2019, 05:20:47 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 15, 2019, 02:40:31 PM
Those are tri-y's. Why would you use them?
Because they don't drag on the ground.
Have you followed NASCAR engine building lately? Sewer pipe exhaust has been largely set aside as that is not where the horsepower is hiding.
This is not to say tiny exhaust works, but 4 huge equal length pipes have marginal gains.
Taking this to the street and it is even more evident.
...and a Tesla has a 3.4 zero to sixty. So?
These were on a forum members car, a custom built set from JBA. Large tube headers that were nearly perfect for my application BUT I have a 4spd and they wouldn't fit. So, it can be done and they can fit without dragging. Even these had a few places but not as bad as Hookers. I had a set of JBA Tri Y's and they were a nice fit as well but not perfect. I've heard good things about the FPA tri y's too. For some of us though, our engines dictate the use of larger pipes. TK go through the expense of building the high end horsepower engines and to strangle it with small tube headers isn't an option.
Either way, installing headers on ANY FE in a Mustang is one of life's most frustrating experiences!!
Wow! You've got my attention. What wouldn't fit with a manual transmission? Was it the clutch linkage or the transmission itself?
Have you guys compared 1-3/4" to 1-7/8" headers on a Dyno? How about on a flow bench?
I have. The radius of the turn of the primary tube is more important than a tiny bit larger diameter. In a tight engine bay, the bigger the primary tube, the more aggressive the turn. More turbulence and less flow if too tight. You know, like an FE in a Mustang.
Competitively racing? Sure, it might make a difference. On the street? Seat of the pants? I don't think one could feel the difference between 536 hp and 526 horsepower.
Is it worth $3000 to not drag on the pavement and have 1.78943% more hp?
The od of the tubing primary should match the od of the exhaust valve. It isn't so much about ultimate hp. It's where the power peaks.
The smaller the tube, the lower the power peak. In an FE, the maximum torque is going to come in early. Like around 1500 rpm and pretty much stay flat all the way through it's useable power range. Probably not dropping until about 6000 rpm.
HP is going to be different. Depending on where you want your HP to peak is where you tune the headers to.
A set of tri-y's is going to peak early. Probably right around the magic 5252 rpm mark. Maybe even earlier? Individual tube header of the correct length (34 to 36") will more likely peak over 6000. Probably around 6500 with 2" primaries and 3-1/2" collectors. You can tune some with the length of the collectors also.
1-3/4" tubes will peak lower. I'd guess 5800 to 6000. For a street FE that would be about right.
My Hooker Super Comp headers were 2-1/8" primaries. Those peaked a little over 7,000. 7200 as I recall. That's way too much header for a box stock 428. Even a stock SCJ or a 427.
In order to use that header you need an honest high 7000 rpm engine.
Even a box stock 427MR will blow up at that number. That doesn't mean that you can't build it to run reliably at that rpm but they do tend to break a lot with that usage even with the best parts.
The 1-3/4" tri-y's are made simply for the ease of installation. The stock iron manifolds in these cars are just so badly restricting that any header will show a drastic improvement.
The Hooker street Super Comps size wise are a good compromise but it's at best a 6500rpm header and you'll feel power drop at 6000. It's main issue is the same as with all Hooker full length headers. The collectors are very low.
Now you could take that header and cut the primary tubes before they turn to the back and probably gain a full pipe diameter, 1-3/4". That's a huge difference to raise them but it's a huge amount of work even with an easy header installation.
In an FE Mustang, you could cross over the line into fully suicidal?
It's interesting how headers actually work. I think of it like playing a musical instrument like a trumpet or trombone. As you change the diameter of the tube and it's length, you change the frequency.
Have you ever noticed at the track when a car with a well tuned exhaust takes off or goes by how everyone freezes to listen to it? I do. Every car sounds just a little different but I generally enjoy the song.
Incidentally. Dyno pulls are generally inaccurate unless you are using the headers that you will use in the car. Using the shops dyno headers are overlooking a major factor in determining the amount of power that the CHASSIS of the car will permit because of exhaust restrictions.
You can compare 2 different sets of headers on the same day, Dyno and tune.
It comes down to which compromise you are willing to live with. For me, in a 52 y/o non-race Mustang, I will give up maximum performance to not drag on the pavement.
Quote from: 2112 on February 16, 2019, 05:37:12 PM
You can compare 2 different sets of headers on the same day, Dyno and tune.
It comes down to which compromise you are willing to live with. For me, in a 52 y/o non-race Mustang, I will give up maximum performance to not drag on the pavement.
;D
1/8 ID in no way could make a huge differece in flow. How the headers are made and how they scavenge would make all the difference.
Correct. The size of the pipe justs "tunes" them.
Make sure the headers you buy will fit with the original z-bar clutch components. The FPA tri-ys don't. You need a hydraulic clutch with those.
What brands fit so you don't have to change the z bar or drop the power steering pump items?
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 16, 2019, 10:27:22 AM
Wow! You've got my attention. What wouldn't fit with a manual transmission? Was it the clutch linkage or the transmission itself?
The drivers side rear tubes, based on my findings of engine images, blocked the z bar and clutch linkage. The headers were perfect for my app in every way! The forum member was great to work with and he was unsure of the fit as well. At the end of the day he was right on money wise but if I still had the modify the right side, I was taking a huge chance.
My car as with this car has a different engine to have fun with, while saving the concourse correct motor on a stand in the corner. As with any car mine has a history and the engine I've got has a storyline too. I've got a Tunnel Port that, while too much, was the ultimate wedge motor in 67! The thought was, build the car to "day 2" mods and that's where I've gone. It's very similar to a few other guys here on the forum too.
Now, a 496 CI, GT40 Dual Plane SK, hydraulic roller, updated TP is of course overkill, you'd kill all advancements by putting small tube headers on it. The engine is detuned and will make 610-620 HP/ TQ based on previous builds from the same builder. So yes, the engine will need it. I just wanted the engine to make street able power, effortlessly. It will probably scare the crap out of me!
I've got a local guy that I bought headers from that, well don't fit, so he owes me the redo. There's also REF in Arizona that makes custom headers that are said to be perfect but at $1800 or so pricing? Their headers do look VERY nice and don't scrub! He builds them to order on a actual Mustang front clip with your oil pan, bell housing deminsions too.
I'm still just working on sheet metal so I have time! I'll post pics of the REF headers.
REF headers. Pretty darn SEXY!!
Pic for Keith - 25-1/8"
I would pay the money to have REF build the headers that actually fit but wouldn't want to ship my car from PA to AZ. Maybe he has a car there he could use with same clutch, bell housing, power steering etc. It would be a bummer to pay the money and still not have them fit.
Very nice but they resemble the Hooker Super Comp race headers. Those are individual tubes like these REF's and have the loops in them to make them close to equal lengths. Those Competition Hookers are 2-1/8" and are thin wall for light weight.
When they are on the car they are like a gorilla with the knuckles hanging down. They do fit though.
My thought about putting these big cube, big horsepower engines in the car is, is the car any faster at all in the !/4" mile? By how much. If it isn't, why bother? You can get into the high 10s with small blocks these days.
It would seem not?
I agree smaller tube would be better and if they are custom made that may be something they could do.
It needs to be a balance between fitment stock equipment with clutch and allowing a good performing camshaft to breath. I'm sure a lot of you get it. Just how do we get there right?
Make sure the headers you buy will fit with the original z-bar clutch components. The FPA tri-ys don't. You need a hydraulic clutch with those.
[/quote]
ShelbyDoug, i run the FPA tri-ys with the original z-bar components.. You do have to trim the bottom off the bracket that is bolted to the block, so it fits flush with the block.. but no need for a hydraulic setup..
As mentioned, I am running the 6114 Hookers. I had them Jethot ceramic coated inside and out. They actually fit the vehicle nicely being I have no shock tower issues. The only thing I did for fitment is opening up the header bolt holes ever so slightly. I run the ARP 3/8 head polished SS 3/4" long bolts. I also only use the cross pattern holes. I absolutely LOVE the new Remflex graphite gaskets. They are about 3/16" thick before compression. The are blow proof and seal abnormalities. The draw back is the 39.00 price tag. However, it beats the hell out of burnt gaskets and cussing while changing them every few months.
They call for 27LBs torque. I don't torque them, but I pull them down until I can pull anymore with the standard snap on and snub wrench. Those are new to me and worked fantastically before I had to pull the engine with 176 miles and sleeve #6 because of a pourosity and water seepage into the oil.
Summit carries them for various port combinations.
https://www.summitracing.com/tx/parts/rfl-3015
Lots of good information here.
Quote from: 67gt500 on February 17, 2019, 03:46:12 PM
Make sure the headers you buy will fit with the original z-bar clutch components. The FPA tri-ys don't. You need a hydraulic clutch with those.
ShelbyDoug, i run the FPA tri-ys with the original z-bar components.. You do have to trim the bottom off the bracket that is bolted to the block, so it fits flush with the block.. but no need for a hydraulic setup..
[/quote]
I'm not the expert on everyone's headers. I doubt anyone really is anyway. I just share information that I have experience with which is all that we can do.
I discussed this with Stan on the phone. Him and me. I told him I wanted to buy a set of his headers but needed to verify that they would fit with the stock clutch z-bar. He blew up.
He told me he didn't care what they were going into, had no idea if they would fit with the linkage, I'm a jerk, to get real, come into the new century and put in a hydraulic clutch like everyone else is. I took that as a no. Consequently I didn't buy them. ;)
I'm glad that your situation worked out and that you share that information with us. ;D
thanks for that information even if it fits I wouldn't want to give my money to a company like that.
All of the long tube headers need the drop braket for the power steering ram. The Hooker 6114 headers work very well, they have been around for some time and the fitment bugs are worked out. The welds were of good quality. However, I can't say anything positive about flowmaster. Even though the vehicle has sat primarily while being completed for four years they rusted out on the bottom. I am trying to figure out what I want to replace them with. I want something deep sounding this time.
-Keith
I do think they sit to far down for me
Keith, I wonder if it might make sense to cut the mid section and take a couple of inches out and revels them back up to get better ground clearance because they do fit well in the other areas. They will clear the z bar right?
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on February 18, 2019, 01:51:47 PM
All of the long tube headers need the drop braket for the power steering ram. The Hooker 6114 headers work very well, they have been around for some time and the fitment bugs are worked out. The welds were of good quality. However, I can't say anything positive about flowmaster. Even though the vehicle has sat primarily while being completed for four years they rusted out on the bottom. I am trying to figure out what I want to replace them with. I want something deep sounding this time.
-Keith
In the case of my JBA's on my 350, IF I take the ram sleeve off, then a lowering bracket isn't necessary. Granted it is a small block BUT it IS the same chassis AND the tubes are 1-3/4"od.
They also do not hang down like the Hookers do.
As a matter of fact, I replaced Hookers on the 350 BECAUSE they hung too low for my tastes as well as the collector angled down. They were also smaller tubes.
So the point is IT IS POSSIBLE to make the headers clear the ram and be about 1-3/4" higher (one tubes dimension) and the collector tuck in.
If you actually look at the original H pipes on these cars, they actually angle down like the headers do BUT then turn up. I never could figure out why but you can clearly see the y-pipe in vintage pictures of the car.
The big block Hookers CAN be altered to give you more ground clearance but they would have to be done on the car. Then sent out for coating. I have a set sitting right here I bought used off of a 69 428 CJ for $100. They are painted, had been fit as evident by the hammer dings in them here and there.
The plan is to mount them and ATTEMPT to alter them to fit higher. I can weld both gas, tig and stick so for me it's less of a problem.
For me, the Hookers are a compromise on the 500. I've had bigger tubes on my small blocks. When I had the Boss 351 in my 350, those were 2"od long tube primaries and they fit like a glove. Those were a brand called Pro Stocks and sold through Gratiot in Detroit.
I can can live with the compromise and I just have to accept only gaining 100hp over the iron manifolds. Some compromises just make life tough I guess? I'll just have to rough it. ;D
I have flowmasters on my 350 for almost 30 years. I blew one set out with the Webers on the Boss 351 during my learning curve (what a backfire!) but the other set is on there since '78 with no rust. How many years is that? Where's my slide rule? 8)
Doug, did you buy the flowmasters pre-puberty? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I got them as a first birthday present. Had them on my stroller with the 427 in it. It was a 'cammer. Mom said size matters. ;)
Mom was right size does matter- ;D
This is one of the type of threads that I would like to see in a new category for day two and race cars, or just call it modified cars.
I enjoyed the information in this thread. It does not just relate to 67s.
This is a picture of the Hooker 6375 adjustable race headers. I was trying to find a picture of the car with them on. No good so far.
If you have never seen that, you are in for a shock or a treat...depending on how you see the world.
Primaries are 2-1/8" and the tubing is 18 gauge, slip tubes. "Real men" don't worry about the noise, the fumes, burning your feet and the sparks from the pavement. All that just numbs your brain. ;)
It's an entirely different kind of fahrvergnugen. 8)
Quote from: 68GT350roadracer on February 20, 2019, 07:27:48 AM
This is one of the type of threads that I would like to see in a new category for day two and race cars, or just call it modified cars.
I enjoyed the information in this thread. It does not just relate to 67s.
We don't really need a separate heading here. Our threads typically wonder all over the place anyway.
I don't think those would fit on a mustang, but they are nice looking headers. I bought Doug's headers the first time and took them back, they were horrid.
-Keith
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on February 20, 2019, 05:45:28 PM
I don't think those would fit on a mustang, but they are nice looking headers. I bought Doug's headers the first time and took them back, they were horrid.
-Keith
They definitely do fit a Mustang.
Doug, power steering and manual trans?
-Keith
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on February 20, 2019, 06:44:02 PM
Doug, power steering and manual trans?
-Keith
No power steering. Manual trans, yes. Power brakes, yes. A/C, no. The front two tubes on both sides GO UNDER the front suspension. The tubes are just a little low. NOT very practical for a street car but I just had to do it to see it. Also the pitman arm is a little close and limits the left turn a little.
Hooker made no bones about it though, they are RACE ONLY.
They're about as low as the Ford deep sump oil pan, which was over the counter. So really they are drag race headers used with uplock shocks but they are VERY COOL to look at.
Most people just stare and are speechless. Lots of HOLY S hit open mouths. I'm into more practical solutions these days and sold those off a while ago.