Does anyone have a 1966 GT350 after 6s252 that has its original engine tag? If so, would you please post a picture of the tag and tell us the Shelby VIN of your car.
Thanks,
Steve Sloan
Hi Steve,
It is unlikely anyone will respond to your request. It is pretty well known that the 65-66 GT350's did not come with an engine tag. The rational is that the tag went with the cast iron intake, assuming they were on the cast iron intake, when the cast iron intake was removed after painting and the aluminum intake was installed. Later production HiPo's built for GT350 applications may not even had a tag with the cast iron intake. If there is a 65-66 GT350 with a tag out there, it is not typical and would be difficult to prove the car came with the tag.
In the attached image, taken from a Competition Press from back in the day, you can see Shelby American was trying to sell the take off parts. Notice the tag still on the cast iron intake.
The unfortunate thing, is I expect many of these intakes and HiPo C5OF-L or J and maybe a few C6ZFC carb's went into the dumpster. Hopefully recycled and not tossed into a land fill. It is likely many of the C6ZFF carb were spared, because many ended up back on the automatic cars. It all depends when the engine mods were transferred from SAI in Californida to the Cleveland engine assembly plant.
Best of luck
Cory
Cory,
Thanks for the great info and the picture of that advertisement. I know that a small handful of 1965 and carryover GT350's got through the process with their engine tag still there. I'm guessing those few tags probably just stuck to the temp sensor when it was swapped from one intake to the other. So I was interested in whether any of the later cars may have accidentally ended up with their tag.
In particular, I'm interested in the 554-J portion of the stamping on the tag. The few 1965 & carryover tags I've seen have 554-J in the stamping. I'm curious if that's also true of the later 1966 chassis GT350's.
But as you said, most, if not all, of the tags on those engines did not survive the intake swap. I'd like to think at least a few tags stayed with their original engine (like what happened in 1965), but possibly not.
Thanks for your input.
Steve
Steve, You are correct!! I owned 5S558 before I sold it to Bobby Rahal. It was in compete original condition and the engine had never been out of the car. It had a black painted intake and an engine tag!!!
Chad
Quote from: Chad on February 22, 2019, 10:26:35 AM
Steve, You are correct!! I owned 5S558 before I sold it to Bobby Rahal. It was in compete original condition and the engine had never been out of the car. It had a black painted intake and an engine tag!!!
Chad
Was it a Shelby Intake or could it have been the Factory Cast Iron Intake?
Quote from: Chad on February 22, 2019, 10:26:35 AM
Steve, You are correct!! I owned 5S558 before I sold it to Bobby Rahal. It was in compete original condition and the engine had never been out of the car. It had a black painted intake and an engine tag!!!
Chad
Thanks, Chad. Now I'm curious if the few cars with original engine tags also have black painted intakes. Is there some link between those two exceptions to the standard production process? I know that 6S030 fits that scenario. I may have to start another topic about that.
For now, I'm still hoping someone with a 1966 chassis GT350 will turn up with an original engine tag that can be used in another research project I'm working on.
Steve
5s363 had an untouched engine and its original engine tag in '91. bare aluminum intake
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 22, 2019, 12:25:09 PM
Thanks, Chad. Now I'm curious if the few cars with original engine tags also have black painted intakes.
Believe we found that connection during the discussion in the prior version of this site (before the crash) Seems that the worker was not well instructed to exactly what was to be done or they forgot to tell him. Things were corrected in the next batch and consistent (in general) on those that followed.
Mistakes or individual screw-ups possible. That's the reason for your request
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 22, 2019, 06:48:57 PM
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 22, 2019, 12:25:09 PM
Thanks, Chad. Now I'm curious if the few cars with original engine tags also have black painted intakes.
Believe we found that connection during the discussion in the prior version of this site (before the crash) Seems that the worker was not well instructed to exactly what was to be done or they forgot to tell him. Things were corrected in the next batch and consistent (in general) on those that followed.
Mistakes or individual screw-ups possible. That's the reason for your request
I know of 11 cars that had black painted intakes. 7 of them are known to have their original engine tags. The other 4 may or may not have their original tags. I have not been able to determine that yet. Either way, that's a pretty tight correlation considering that the overwhelming majority of 1965-66 GT350's did not have their original engine tags.
About your mention that a "worker was not well instructed." Is that an established fact? Or is that the best reasonable explanation offered to date? If it's an established fact, would you please share the supporting evidence?
I ask because I have an alternate theory. I think the black painted intakes were installed by Ford at the Cleveland engine plant. And they had original engine tags because that was required of engines when they left that plant for tracking purposes. I don't think the workers installing engines at San Jose and other facilities tracked and installed engines based on the appearance of the engine. I think they worked based on the engine tags. So any engine installed by Ford would require an engine tag – at least when it rolled off the Ford assembly line.
For most of the 1965-66 GT350's that tag was separated from the car when SA swapped the cast iron intake for the aluminum Cobra intake. A few (like 5s363) came through that process with their engine tags still there. But that was a rare exception. Probably caused by a tag simply sticking to the temperature sensor during the intake swap.
But the cars with black painted Cobra intakes from Ford didn't required that swap at SA and therefore kept the engine tags that were on them when they rolled out of San Jose.
We may never know the full answer to this, but I think mine is a pretty good theory which is supported by the evidence that we have at this point in time.
If you think this is getting too deep for an open forum topic, you know my email address. I'd be happy to continue this offline if you wish.
Respectfully,
Steve Sloan
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 22, 2019, 10:49:37 PM
About your mention that a "worker was not well instructed." Is that an established fact? Or is that the best reasonable explanation offered to date? If it's an established fact, would you please share the supporting evidence?
I ask because I have an alternate theory. I think the black painted intakes were installed by Ford at the Cleveland engine plant....
Yes was referring to Cleveland also
I'm a ways from Cleveland and have not interviewed the worker assigned to painting the altered engines in 1965 so its best best guess based on the fact that they were not painted before and not after this (what appears) to be a very short period
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 22, 2019, 10:49:37 PMAnd they had original engine tags because that was required of engines when they left that plant for tracking purposes. I don't think the workers installing engines at San Jose and other facilities tracked and installed engines based on the appearance of the engine. I think they worked based on the engine tags. ............
Believe they were using the paper labels as identifications for the line workers and those working (prepping engines and trans combinations) on the mezzanine. Tags were too small for quick identification. Believe its a possibility that there was additional identification for the engine intended to be installed into, what would become Shelby's to help the workers place once and if the engine plant was installing the Shelby parts it would have been obvious.
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 22, 2019, 10:49:37 PM................So any engine installed by Ford would require an engine tag – at least when it rolled off the Ford assembly line.
Using your words ;) Is that an established fact? Or is that the best reasonable explanation offered to date? I don't recall seeing anything related to the metal engine tag on a travelers or final inspection form. If you have something would love to see it.
In addition we do have pictures showing engines with additional labeling sitting at Cleveland in '65 with additional labeling which appears to read "DSO" like we find on rearends built for the same applications, waiting to be freighted to the car plant (s)
We can discuss this more off line rather than getting deep in the weeds here then share the discoveries. Agree this has gone off thread a bit and don't want to take the attention from your request/search
Jeff, thanks for the great, detailed reply. I see there's something I left out of my analysis - the paper engine tags. I'll send you an email for followup discussion as I'd like to see some of the pics you mention.
For forum members following this thread let me clarify something. I agree with Jeff that the black Cobra intakes were installed and painted at Ford. My point of interest is where the engine tags were separated from the engines - Ford or SA. I believed that engines in cars leaving the San Jose assembly line would require identification via the engine tags. Jeff pointed out the paper labels which I had forgotten about. That makes my engine tag question of no consequence for the research I'm doing.
Steve Sloan
Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 23, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?
I've never heard of nor seen any evidence of that on the GT350's as we find on the 67 GT500 or the Boss 302's for examples. Overspray or paint blow out on gaskets, intake or other areas around the edges of the intake as you would find with a mask. On the 500's they didn't have a choice since the head and intake design is so different - doesn't allow for an easy swap due to the valve train design. Always difficult somewhat, to put ourselves in the minds of engineers and plant managers of the time period looking backwards IMHO
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 23, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?
assemblyline pics of 65s at SA show new intakes on the floor getting ready to install
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on February 22, 2019, 03:41:36 PM
5s363 had an untouched engine and its original engine tag in '91. bare aluminum intake
Sfm6sxxx, that's great information for my research. Thanks for sharing!
Steve
And now back to our previously scheduled question. Does anyone have a 1966 GT350 after 6s252 that has its original engine tag?
Thanks,
Steve Sloan
Quote from: acman63 on February 23, 2019, 02:12:44 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 23, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?
assemblyline pics of 65s at SA show new intakes on the floor getting ready to install
That's '65s. Weren't the 66 engines assembled by Ford including the Cobra intakes?
Hey Guys,
Yes the intake on 558 was the Cobra aluminum intake. I can not remember the gentleman's name in WI that did a lot of research on the black intake topic. I think his name is Dave. He purchased Jackie Jones' survivor 65 GT350. I can not remember the number. He sold it a couple years ago. Anyway he knows a lot about it. I believe he figured that towards the end of 65 production Ford installed som of the intakes on the 65 Shelbys and that is why they got painted black.
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 23, 2019, 03:13:12 PM
Quote from: acman63 on February 23, 2019, 02:12:44 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 23, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?
assemblyline pics of 65s at SA show new intakes on the floor getting ready to install
That's '65s. Weren't the 66 engines assembled by Ford including the Cobra intakes?
There are some people who believe that. I'm not one of them. I'm having an off-line discussion on that topic right now. It gets a bit detailed to cover productively in a forum setting. For example, my file of research on that topic is 7 pages long. Plus several pertinent factory documents, and some quotes from a few notable people who may not want to see their words repeated in a public discussion.
And I'll admit that I could be wrong, so I prefer not to discuss this online until I get my research critiqued by some of the people who disagree with me. I've found that a good way to learn is to discuss things with people who have opposing views - not just those who agree with me.
Obviously I think I'm right, but if I'm wrong, I don't want to spread false info in the public domain.
In any case, I respectfully request that this question be shelved temporarily while some, hopefully productive, exchanges of evidence and ideas goes on privately.
Respectfully,
Steve Sloan
Quote from: Chad on February 23, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
Hey Guys,
He purchased Jackie Jones' survivor 65 GT350. I can not remember the number.
SFM5S142 I believe. We sold SFM5S142 October 29, 1983 working our way toward Cobra CSX2310. The GT350 didn't even have surface rust on anything except on some of the exhaust sections when we had it as it had always been parked inside or parked in a climate controlled building. I tried to take color pictures of all the chalk and grease pencil markings on the chassis and major parts. Unfortunately everything 1965-66 GT350 I had (pick up mini pickup truck load of nos parts in blue and gray FoMoCo(R) packages, literature, and all the photos and their negatives) went home with the car buyer.
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 23, 2019, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 23, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?
I've never heard of nor seen any evidence of that on the GT350's as we find on the 67 GT500 or the Boss 302's for examples. Overspray or paint blow out on gaskets, intake or other areas around the edges of the intake as you would find with a mask. On the 500's they didn't have a choice since the head and intake design is so different - doesn't allow for an easy swap due to the valve train design. Always difficult somewhat, to put ourselves in the minds of engineers and plant managers of the time period looking backwards IMHO
Was reminded as I look through my picture collection looking at some other details that if a mask had been used for the small block engine painting with COBRA intake in place that the intake bolts holding the intake to the engine would not have been painted blue as we find them on original cars.
Just thought that should be mentioned also.
Discussions will continue as they should :)
Quote from: acman63 on February 23, 2019, 02:12:44 PM
assemblyline pics of 65s at SA show new intakes on the floor getting ready to install
Looks like a "pile" of swaybars heaped there as well.
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 23, 2019, 02:14:00 PM
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on February 22, 2019, 03:41:36 PM
5s363 had an untouched engine and its original engine tag in '91. bare aluminum intake
Sfm6sxxx, that's great information for my research. Thanks for sharing!
Steve
i
If you want a picture or just the info, let me know. When I sold the car, the person that bought/restored the car kept the tag. After he sold the car, he later sold the tag on ebay a few years ago and my friend bought it. So, I went and took some pics today.
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on February 23, 2019, 09:58:33 PM
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 23, 2019, 02:14:00 PM
Quote from: Sfm6sxxx on February 22, 2019, 03:41:36 PM
5s363 had an untouched engine and its original engine tag in '91. bare aluminum intake
Sfm6sxxx, that's great information for my research. Thanks for sharing!
Steve
i
If you want a picture or just the info, let me know. When I sold the car, the person that bought/restored the car kept the tag. After he sold the car, he later sold the tag on ebay a few years ago and my friend bought it. So, I went and took some pics today.
That is a very nice offer. I would love to have some pics. Can you email them to me? Just click on my user name in the left column and it will take you to my profile that includes my email address. I hesitate to post it here for fear of getting more spam that I already get.
THANKS!
Steve Sloan
I'm still looking for an original engine tag on 1966 GT350 (after 6s252). I don't want to buy it, I just want to know if one exists and possibly get a picture.
But while we're waiting, if you have a 1966 GT350 (after 252) that has its engine ID sticker/label, can you post what's on that sticker. On the carryovers I'm familiar with that sticker is on the coil and says "554J." I'm interested in learning if the later 1966 cars had that same "554J" or something else.
Thanks,
Steve
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 23, 2019, 07:35:09 PM
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 23, 2019, 01:48:34 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 23, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
Do you think there was an intake mask used by Ford so that the intake wasn't painted like was done with the 67 GT500 engine (and other Ford assembled Shelby engines)?
I've never heard of nor seen any evidence of that on the GT350's as we find on the 67 GT500 or the Boss 302's for examples. Overspray or paint blow out on gaskets, intake or other areas around the edges of the intake as you would find with a mask. On the 500's they didn't have a choice since the head and intake design is so different - doesn't allow for an easy swap due to the valve train design. Always difficult somewhat, to put ourselves in the minds of engineers and plant managers of the time period looking backwards IMHO
Was reminded as I look through my picture collection looking at some other details that if a mask had been used for the small block engine painting with COBRA intake in place that the intake bolts holding the intake to the engine would not have been painted blue as we find them on original cars.
Just thought that should be mentioned also.
Discussions will continue as they should :)
I remember the "previous" discussion about intakes. I didn't realize that now they have been elevated to confidential internal discussions by authorized negotiators? I suppose some would consider that as progress? ;D
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 23, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
I remember the "previous" discussion about intakes. I didn't realize that now they have been elevated to confidential internal discussions by authorized negotiators? I suppose some would consider that as progress? ;D
As far as I know, there are no "authorized negotiators" – just curious enthusiasts using various methods to research these cars.
I see this forum as a great place to exchange ideas and information, and to actually invite new data and constructive criticism into a research project. But it's not the only way to accomplish those goals. Sometimes alternate methods can be more productive. I've met many people who will share info confidentially, off-line that they would never post on the internet. And I have seen constructive forum discussions devolve into turf wars and personal insults. Not exactly optimum for productive research. Personally, I find a combination of forum and off-line discussions work pretty well for me.
But that's just me. Please, don't let me hold you back. I encourage you to start a new topic on anything you wish. Although I do respectfully request that you let this particular thread stay about engine tags and labels.
BTW, if you wish to discuss this privately my email is listed in my member profile. How's that for irony? :)
Thanks,
Steve Sloan
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 24, 2019, 12:08:10 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 23, 2019, 09:10:43 AM
I remember the "previous" discussion about intakes. I didn't realize that now they have been elevated to confidential internal discussions by authorized negotiators? I suppose some would consider that as progress? ;D
As far as I know, there are no "authorized negotiators" – just curious enthusiasts using various methods to research these cars.
BTW, if you wish to discuss this privately my email is listed in my member profile. How's that for irony? :)
Thanks,
Steve Sloan
Amazingly ironic but progressive in effect. It's too bad we lost so much info in the crash. I often would refer to previous posts to refresh my memory and avoid rehashing and opening old wounds, which is not my intent.
I simply forget what exactly was discussed. Putting those discussions into private posts doesn't help document anything including the disagreements.
So far, I haven't seen anyone respond about having the tags. Maybe cross discussions can help smoke those out? One never knows? ;)
shelbydoug, I'm with you. We lost a lot in the forum 1.0 crash. I have files of data with links to a forum topic where some of that info came from. Obviously those are dead links now.
And I appreciate your positive attitude. It will be great if this smokes out some tag info. But even if it doesn't, it's nice to know that someone I've never met is trying to help me. Thank you.
Whatever I learn about these cars will eventually find it's way to this forum. In part, as a partial payback for all the great info others have shared here with me. And in part to test its validity. There's nothing like posting something here to get some of the most knowledgeable criticism in the Shelby world. That's the stuff of good research - throw it out to the best experts you know and see if it stands up.
Steve Sloan
I'm curious about the tags too, as well as the ten or so black painting intakes. I've seen all sorts of scenarios smoke out info or lead off in another unsuspected direction that others were wondering about as well.
I try to remember that much of the enthusiasm is inspired by passion and that passion can easily erupt and be misunderstood as a dysfunctional sociofile attitude.
Alot of these big rambling threads eventually derive some interesting information and I can understand that if one was an efficiando of the Dewy Decimal system, anything out of place would be a deduction from one's final grade. I might have failed "Library" in seventh grade? I don't remember but remember that the "teacher" was constantly infuriated? She might have been one of the teachers that committed suicide and jumped out of the window? The library was on the third floor so it was high enough? Hum?
Quote from: Chad on February 23, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
Hey Guys,
Yes the intake on 558 was the Cobra aluminum intake. I can not remember the gentleman's name in WI that did a lot of research on the black intake topic. I think his name is Dave. He purchased Jackie Jones' survivor 65 GT350. I can not remember the number. He sold it a couple years ago. Anyway he knows a lot about it. I believe he figured that towards the end of 65 production Ford installed som of the intakes on the 65 Shelbys and that is why they got painted black.
Probably thinking of Dave Steine, who had 5S520, around 10k original miles. Believe the car was sold sometime in the past couple years?
Bob G has an intra company memo saying that the Cleveland engine plant would be installing the intakes there. That is likely where the "black" intake came from. There isn't a memo saying they stopped. Nor is there a memo saying to stop painting them.
In talking with a "pit guy" Bert Brown ( from the day) he talked about conversion competitions held by the various "teams" that worked the pit changing pans and headers versus the "top crew" that installed valve covers , manifolds , and carbs. When SAI closed in '67 Bert went on to Shelby Racing Co until it's doors were closed in late '69.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on February 25, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Bob G has an intra company memo saying that the Cleveland engine plant would be installing the intakes there.
Randy
I realize that but the thread was suggestive that somehow that had been discredited and that was what was being debated privately? What doesn't make sense to me is that why the bolts would be blue if Ford installed the intakes? Unless the engines were already assembled for regular K cars and engines were rescheduled for Shelbys after the fact.
Considering how Ford co-ordinates the parts necessary and has them ready as the cars go down the line, that seems far fetched. Blue bolts on SA installed intakes, sure, but on Ford installed, nah.
I don't remember the memo date and the changeover scheduled and if it says that?
That's also what motivated my question about an intake cover. How would you paint the engine and not get paint on the intake manifold unless it was covered or it was installed after it was painted?
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 03:38:42 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on February 25, 2019, 02:34:11 PM
Bob G has an intra company memo saying that the Cleveland engine plant would be installing the intakes there.
Randy
I realize that but the thread was suggestive that somehow that had been discredited and that was what was being debated privately? What doesn't make sense to me is that why the bolts would be blue if Ford installed the intakes? Unless the engines were already assembled for regular K cars and engines were rescheduled for Shelbys after the fact.
Considering how Ford co-ordinates the parts necessary and has them ready as the cars go down the line, that seems far fetched. Blue bolts on SA installed intakes, sure, but on Ford installed, nah.
I don't remember the memo date and the changeover scheduled and if it says that?
That's also what motivated my question about an intake cover. How would you paint the engine and not get paint on the intake manifold unless it was covered or it was installed after it was painted?
Besides the fact that Chuck C has said that that intakes were changed over to Ford doing them when I asked him. I believe the engine painting with the cast iron intake before change over to the aluminum intake had to do with what Ford found to be the best way for them to give the customer (SA) a aluminum intake without paint. It was most likely some type of internal Ford bureaucracy decision.
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 03:38:42 PM
That's also what motivated my question about an intake cover. How would you paint the engine and not get paint on the intake manifold unless it was covered or it was installed after it was painted?
Yes it would suggest that the intake and other changes were made after the engines were assembled and hot tested (run) which would be the typical process for all engines. From there groups were moved over to an area where the items were changed then moved to the loading dock to wait for the next freight car.
Just moving the process from what Shelby would have done to Ford doing it
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 25, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 03:38:42 PM
That's also what motivated my question about an intake cover. How would you paint the engine and not get paint on the intake manifold unless it was covered or it was installed after it was painted?
Yes it would suggest that the intake and other changes were made after the engines were assembled and hot tested (run) which would be the typical process for all engines. From there groups were moved over to an area where the items were changed then moved to the loading dock to wait for the next freight car.
Just moving the process from what Shelby would have done to Ford doing it
I get it, ok? It just seems ass backwards since the point was to reduce the work to install the intake. It's all assumption based on circumstantial evidence. The largest part being painted bolts which is an observation after the fact.
To do two intake installations at a Ford plant seems illogical. What proof do you have that the engine wasn't painted with no intake manifold and the bolts layed in place? It's just as illogical?
It would seem more likely that a couple of painted Cobra intakes was more likely just a engine plant mistake.
...AND if FORD did the swap, why is there no engine tag on it? That's illogical also? ;)
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 04:27:56 PM
I get it, ok? It just seems ass backwards since the point was to reduce the work to install the intake. It's all assumption based on circumstantial evidence. The largest part being painted bolts which is an observation after the fact.
To do two intake installations at a Ford plant seems illogical. What proof do you have that the engine wasn't painted with no intake manifold and the bolts layed in place? It's just as illogical?
I would in turn then ask what proof do you have of the later? and how logic applies to installing intake manifolds into the bolt only to have to pay someone to remove them before installing the aluminum intake. The lack of the engine ID tag as mentioned below would be one clue IMHO for those engines built after the short black intake and transferred ID tag period.
Often practices appear to be illogical when we don't have all the facts, most of us have not run an assembly line like we're discussion and we look back at other's choice in years long past. Sure many of us worked at places where illogical things took place every day. We were workers and not the boss or owner so we did it their way, got paid and went home at the end of the day.
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 04:27:56 PMIt would seem more likely that a couple of painted Cobra intakes was more likely just a engine plant mistake.
That is what some/many believe as well as the transfer of the aluminum engine ID tag
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 04:27:56 PM...AND if FORD did the swap, why is there no engine tag on it? That's illogical also? ;)
If the cast iron intake was installed and the engine aluminum ID tag was installed and run as typically done then the ID tag would have been removed with the intake manifold and carb since the bolt that retained it was not one of the ones that holds the intake to the engine.
Engine ID tags were on many small letter/sender Cobra intakes. Ford did it and so did SAI. When the senders were increased in size and no longer fit , it is "MY" personal opinion few were transferred , though I have seen a few under a manifold hold down bolt. I'm talking about "in the day" not current owner modified.
Randy
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 25, 2019, 04:43:16 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 04:27:56 PM
I get it, ok? It just seems ass backwards since the point was to reduce the work to install the intake. It's all assumption based on circumstantial evidence. The largest part being painted bolts which is an observation after the fact.
To do two intake installations at a Ford plant seems illogical. What proof do you have that the engine wasn't painted with no intake manifold and the bolts layed in place? It's just as illogical?
I would in turn then ask what proof do you have of the later? and how logic applies to installing intake manifolds into the bolt only to have to pay someone to remove them before installing the aluminum intake. The lack of the engine ID tag as mentioned below would be one clue IMHO for those engines built after the short black intake and transferred ID tag period.
Often practices appear to be illogical when we don't have all the facts, most of us have not run an assembly line like we're discussion and we look back at other's choice in years long past. Sure many of us worked at places where illogical things took place every day. We were workers and not the boss or owner so we did it their way, got paid and went home at the end of the day.
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 04:27:56 PMIt would seem more likely that a couple of painted Cobra intakes was more likely just a engine plant mistake.
That is what some/many believe as well as the transfer of the aluminum engine ID tag
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 04:27:56 PM...AND if FORD did the swap, why is there no engine tag on it? That's illogical also? ;)
If the cast iron intake was installed and the engine aluminum ID tag was installed and run as typically done then the ID tag would have been removed with the intake manifold and carb since the bolt that retained it was not one of the ones that holds the intake to the engine.
What proof do I habe? None. Just like you. What I would say is that what would determine the procedure is cost. In any shape place or form. On any planet. In any type of even a time warp. I personally wouldn't want to have to explain why I decided that it was the proper thing to install the intakes TWICE AT TWICE THE COST IN LABOR AND MATERIALS.
The person who decided that was on the fast track to a career in the fast food service or janitorial maintenance. Particularly in corporate structure where I woud be monitored by an MBA who wouldn't even know how to install hubcaps or even what they were or used for. Just know that I had authorized the scenario and that it was "obviously a mistake in managerial judgement requiring response of discipline".
In other words, my butt would be out the door faster then you know what goes through a goose. But if you insist on debating how many angels can sit on the head of a pin, you will be at it alone. I'm not interested. See ya'. Have fun. ;)
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
I'm not interested. See ya'. Have fun. ;)
Thanks - I think we discovered allot in the exchange :)
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 25, 2019, 06:48:59 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 25, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
I'm not interested. See ya'. Have fun. ;)
Thanks - I think we discovered allot in the exchange :)
Sure thing. It cuts both ways. Me too.
One VERY BIG issue bothers me . The engine code tags and stickers are linked to a "build book" supplied to engine plant workers for every specific engine. IF the engines were built to a "different standard" ( intake manifold and carburetor , valve covers , oil pan) and tagged as a 554 , and warehoused by that number, what would prevent them from being used or "regular production" , K code Mustangs that also used a 554 code engine? Remember this all took place in a 1 million + square foot building in Cleveland Ohio, before shipping to San Jose and being warehoused again , not 2 buildings at LAX. IF the tag codes stayed the same on SAI destined engines they would have to be "quarantined" to prevent one being put into a production K code car. '67 DSO sheets list a "production" 289 High Performance engine with a regular engine tag number to be used not a ''SAI special".
That is what bothers me about the Cleveland engine plant adding the SAI items back there.
Respectfully,
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on February 26, 2019, 10:54:06 AM
............................ IF the tag codes stayed the same on SAI destined engines they would have to be "quarantined" to prevent one being put into a production K code car. '67 DSO sheets list a "production" 289 High Performance engine with a regular engine tag number to be used not a ''SAI special".
There is the possibility that the completed engines were labeled/marked differently so like the paper labels that could be identified quicker and from a greater distance and so the two could be identified quicker when being loaded on specific rail cars for the trip west. Maybe just additional marking or labeling in addition to the "regular" stuff. Much like the rearends that would have looked the same from a distance if it were not for the DSO hand written to the rear of the housing.
We may be looking too hard to find answers (to this individual question) inside the box rather than other possibilities. Of which I think there are. We have to consider that a simple X, paint mark or other identifier could change a process, parts used or other practice - it didn't take allot as long as everyone affected knew what it meant.
Just a possibility based on what we have at this moment
Quote from: CharlesTurner on February 25, 2019, 09:29:20 AM
Quote from: Chad on February 23, 2019, 05:31:30 PM
Hey Guys,
Yes the intake on 558 was the Cobra aluminum intake. I can not remember the gentleman's name in WI that did a lot of research on the black intake topic. I think his name is Dave. He purchased Jackie Jones' survivor 65 GT350. I can not remember the number. He sold it a couple years ago. Anyway he knows a lot about it. I believe he figured that towards the end of 65 production Ford installed som of the intakes on the 65 Shelbys and that is why they got painted black.
Yes that is correct! Thanks
Probably thinking of Dave Steine, who had 5S520, around 10k original miles. Believe the car was sold sometime in the past couple years?
Jeff & Randy (and anyone else who may know about this),
I'm trying to learn something about the assembly process at San Jose in 1965-66. In particular related to the installation of the engines.
How did they know which engine to put into which car?
Did each car have paperwork that traveled with it down the assembly line to specify what engine to install? If so, how was that engine specified on that document? Via a code like 554J? Or something else?
I know each engine had a metal tag and a sticker – each with the engine code. Did the workers match the code on the paperwork for each car with the code on an engine sticker? Or maybe the workers were trained on how to identify particular engines on sight without having to refer to codes?
In my mind I picture cars traveling down an assembly line with some kind of papers attached to each chassis – with codes for the components to be installed – like 554J to designate the engine. And to the side of that line are all those components with code stickers or some other way to identify them so the correct item gets into the correct car. Again, like an engine with 554J on the engine code sticker. The workers look for the code on the paperwork, find an engine with a code that matches and install it.
Am I close?
I originally posted about this in the SAAC Forum Discussion Area because it seemed a broader question than would be appropriate for this 1966 area of the forum. But I haven't gotten any replies there yet, so I thought I'd try here since that's where this discussion appears to be headed anyway.
Thanks for any info you can add to my education on this topic.
Steve Sloan
My understanding was that the sub station at the top of the mezzanine where the engines and trans were put together received a print out of every car in order according to its second (trim line) rotation number. The code on the build sheet indicated a code and instructions for that particular rotation number and the worker put those two together, wrote the rotation number on the completed the assembly then it was rolled to the end of the mezzanine where it was lower the the landing below. The worker in charge down below would identify the rotation number on the assembly with the rotation number on the car and the engine was lifted and installed by the workers at that station. Other plants handled things a bit differently but best not to get off subject ;)
Never talked to one of the workers typically assigned to the task of putting the engine and trans combinations together but if they did look at the buildsheet they may have just looked at the engine code and quickly identified some of the engines after a while by, visual clues such as the chrome valve covers or different valve covers once the production year had been going for a short time. At the same time another worker on a different shift may have memorized the code and it's related engine ID or trans ID code from the paper tag and the ink stamp on the trans much like a check out person at a grocery store recalls what code a fuji apple or an ear of corn is and enters it into the cash register without looking it up. In the case of a Shelby the additional notations at the bottom of the buildsheet would have been quicker than looking for a box with a code. Especially after only a few I would expect the worker figured out a short cut to get the job done quicker.
Each car would have had two or three buildsheets attached to the body during the trim line section depending on what had been installed already but a handwritten rotation number was typically applied to the body at the front and rear of the body making identification quicker and easier from a greater distance than reading the print on a piece of paper.
I hope this helps and I understood your request.
When did the VIN get stamped into the block? At the individual assembly plant San Jose Dearborn etc or where the engine was assembled? I've seen k motors from different plants have different styles of VIN stamps. Some being in a straight line others looking as if each digit was stamped individually. Some could be restamps however I believe what I was looking at was original blocks. There seems to be an inconsistency compared to the Vin stamps in the bodies being the same from plant to plant.
At the assembly plant. Some of the early '65 GT350s had their original engines built with "soft" cams that failed on the drive from SAI to Riverside Raceway for the Press Review. All of those engines were replaced with new engines air freighted to SAI. Those engines were not serialized and SAI didn't add them either. This can cause some distress when looking at an early car with w non vin stamped engine that is the actual ''AS SOLD" engine but NOT the "assembly line engine. Craig Conley inspected one car with this "situation". Bruce Junor (SAI retired , obviously) was the Production Manager at that time and related the story during a local COCOA club meeting some 10+ years ago.
Randy
Quote from: davez on February 27, 2019, 06:14:56 AM
When did the VIN get stamped into the block? At the individual assembly plant San Jose Dearborn etc or where the engine was assembled? I've seen k motors from different plants have different styles of VIN stamps. Some being in a straight line others looking as if each digit was stamped individually. Some could be restamps however I believe what I was looking at was original blocks. There seems to be an inconsistency compared to the Vin stamps in the bodies being the same from plant to plant.
It is the current consensus that the engines were vin stamped at individual assembly plant in the case of 66 GT350 San Jose . There may have been a fixture tool that automatically stamped the collective VIN numbers in the metal but if there was it may not have always been used. I have seen many in a untouched setting vin stamping's where the individual numbers were not in the straight line and of varying depth in the casting which leads me to believe at least some were hand stamped.
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 27, 2019, 04:31:04 AM
My understanding was that the sub station at the top of the mezzanine where the engines and trans were put together received a print out of every car in order according to its second (trim line) rotation number. The code on the build sheet indicated a code and instructions for that particular rotation number and the worker put those two together, wrote the rotation number on the completed the assembly then it was rolled to the end of the mezzanine where it was lower the the landing below. The worker in charge down below would identify the rotation number on the assembly with the rotation number on the car and the engine was lifted and installed by the workers at that station. Other plants handled things a bit differently but best not to get off subject ;)
Never talked to one of the workers typically assigned to the task of putting the engine and trans combinations together but if they did look at the buildsheet they may have just looked at the engine code and quickly identified some of the engines after a while by, visual clues such as the chrome valve covers or different valve covers once the production year had been going for a short time. At the same time another worker on a different shift may have memorized the code and it's related engine ID or trans ID code from the paper tag and the ink stamp on the trans much like a check out person at a grocery store recalls what code a fuji apple or an ear of corn is and enters it into the cash register without looking it up. In the case of a Shelby the additional notations at the bottom of the buildsheet would have been quicker than looking for a box with a code. Especially after only a few I would expect the worker figured out a short cut to get the job done quicker.
Each car would have had two or three buildsheets attached to the body during the trim line section depending on what had been installed already but a handwritten rotation number was typically applied to the body at the front and rear of the body making identification quicker and easier from a greater distance than reading the print on a piece of paper.
I hope this helps and I understood your request.
Jeff, that is fantastic information. Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed account! Is there a book I could buy that covers any of this? I'm intrigued by info like this. Maybe I should spend more time over at the ConcoursMustang forum.
Steve
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 27, 2019, 11:31:29 AM
Quote from: davez on February 27, 2019, 06:14:56 AM
When did the VIN get stamped into the block? At the individual assembly plant San Jose Dearborn etc or where the engine was assembled? I've seen k motors from different plants have different styles of VIN stamps. Some being in a straight line others looking as if each digit was stamped individually. Some could be restamps however I believe what I was looking at was original blocks. There seems to be an inconsistency compared to the Vin stamps in the bodies being the same from plant to plant.
It is the current consensus that the engines were vin stamped at individual assembly plant in the case of 66 GT350 San Jose . There may have been a fixture tool that automatically stamped the collective VIN numbers in the metal but if there was it may not have always been used. I have seen many in a untouched setting vin stamping's where the individual numbers were not in the straight line and of varying depth in the casting which leads me to believe at least some were hand stamped.
Bob, you write that the consensus is the 1966 cars got their engines VIN stamped at San Jose. What about the 1965 cars?
Thanks,
Steve
My 20+ yrs experience ( 1977 ~ 1999 ) as a Ford Parts mgr was mostly involved with DSO built heavy trucks.
My experience was that the DSO build process had not changed much from the mid 1960's,
they still used a similar DSO form as as used for SAI.
As noted the rear axle, the calipers, brake proportioning valve, etc were DSO parts.
IMHO the engine was a RPO ( regular production option ) assembly, pulled off to a re-work station where the intake & carb were installed.
This "rework" would not effect the regular engine production line, but still used the quality & material controls of the plant.
Since SAI would untimely be the Manufacturer of record, documenting the content of the car was on SAI, FoMoCo was in this case a "sub-supplier".
Still the central question of how the re-worked engines were then identified from Cleveland, into San Jose, and into "special build" cars destined for SAI is unknown.
Unless documentation surfaces confirming the Cleveland engine "code" 554J was altered/changed, I believe they were "DSO" marked like a color X or a special tag
that differentiated the assembly from RPO engines.
just sharing my observations that may add understanding,.... or not ::)
regards,
jim p
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 27, 2019, 12:21:06 PM
Jeff, that is fantastic information. Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed account! Is there a book I could buy that covers any of this? I'm intrigued by info like this. Maybe I should spend more time over at the ConcoursMustang forum.
No book that covers San Jose production. There are a number of out of print publications by authors and Ford that cover parts of the planning, production and other details as well as a number of films from the period that cover basis Ford production during the 60's and early 70's
This info comes from obtaining & viewing pictures, films, talking to people like workers, managers, one of the people responsible for laying out the San Jose plant lines, inspectors, also workers and managers of other Ford plants over a number of decades. Many stayed in the area after the plant was closed (have friends that helped clean up and got access the plant after the closure) and we continue to meet workers every so often as they visit the shops and shows locally.
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 27, 2019, 12:24:29 PM
Bob, you write that the consensus is the 1966 cars got their engines VIN stamped at San Jose. What about the 1965 cars?
I've been told that the engine and trans combinations received the VIN stamping up on that mezzanine I was describing.
For this period of time (65 & 66) I don't believe a gang stamp (holder that had all the numbers and letters together for a single stamping) was used like may be used in other years for this purpose though other car makes apparently did.
I agree with Jeff on the lack of a gang stamp being used. For example I have seen the "K" made from three strikes of the "I" stamp and the whole stamp being "wavy " and irregularly spaced. I have also seen others done very neatly. Yes long ago , not recent "additions" .
Randy
Quote from: SFM6S087 on February 27, 2019, 12:24:29 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 27, 2019, 11:31:29 AM
Quote from: davez on February 27, 2019, 06:14:56 AM
When did the VIN get stamped into the block? At the individual assembly plant San Jose Dearborn etc or where the engine was assembled? I've seen k motors from different plants have different styles of VIN stamps. Some being in a straight line others looking as if each digit was stamped individually. Some could be restamps however I believe what I was looking at was original blocks. There seems to be an inconsistency compared to the Vin stamps in the bodies being the same from plant to plant.
It is the current consensus that the engines were vin stamped at individual assembly plant in the case of 66 GT350 San Jose . There may have been a fixture tool that automatically stamped the collective VIN numbers in the metal but if there was it may not have always been used. I have seen many in a untouched setting vin stamping's where the individual numbers were not in the straight line and of varying depth in the casting which leads me to believe at least some were hand stamped.
Bob, you write that the consensus is the 1966 cars got their engines VIN stamped at San Jose. What about the 1965 cars?
Thanks,
Steve
Steve,I said 66 because of the specific context of the thread category we are in (1966 ShelbyGT350/GT350H) . I don't have any reason to believe 65 was any different.
Jeff, you need to write a book. The info that you have is priceless and unavailable from any other source I know. Not to be macabre, but unless you do something that info will die with you. Plus you could make a few dollars to compensate you for the hundreds (possibly thousands) of hours of research you must have in this.
And, Bob, that goes for you too. Maybe the two of you could collaborate and then share in the proceeds.
Just a suggestion. Thanks for sharing freely here on the forum.
Steve
Think we are doing something with the information ;)
Books have been discussed many times but we realize that they are dated and so information contained within is old the day they are sent to the printers as they don't keep up with the growing knowledge base that expands daily, weekly or monthly. This is why I and many others, I believe, take the time to share, through articles, on the forums or in Charles T and my case, start a forum to focus on this sort of details - hoping others will take what is shared and expand from there, hopefully, until there is no longer any interest in the subjects.
Don't believe I have enough time to write down and share everything but contingency plans are in place. Saw what happened with great people I grew up knowing with so much knowledge (Lorin Sorensen was a close family friend who I worked for on the side in his very early years of publishing) who passed away leaving their writings and legacy. Lorin may have been the person who initially get me interested in Ford car assembly practices.
Time waits for no man