We had an issue awhile back with a car that was being judged had been a color change . After the owner had been told that the color change would be a severe deduction the owner made a big stink and emailed all the Board of directors saying that we were changing the rules (which we didnt) It was clear in the judging sheets that the deduction was 30 points. It seems somewhere in the archives of ancient SAAC judging he found something that said any Shelby American color that was applicable for that year would be acceptable . Im not sure how old that was but I couldnt find it going back ten years. Ironically after all this hissy fit and agreeing to re-instate the points we later found out that the color the car was painted wasnt even a shelby color . We had 27 owners that followed the rules and 1 that made a hissy fit and got his way. If it was my call I would have let the deductions stand.
Thus, this is where we are now on color changes. We are of the concensus that the color of the car when it left the factory is very, very important . Going forward , A car that is Color changed entered in SAAC Premiere (D1) will not be allowed to be judged period! It will be be downgraded to SAAC Concours! However in SAAC Concourse (D2) a color change will be allowed to be judged as long as its a color that was available for that year car! BUT that car will not be eligible for a gold award at all and will basicly start as a Silver and go from there.
We feel this rule is one that will help SAAC protect the integrity of the Marque and SAAC Judging
How could it be considered Concourse if it had a Color Change?
Where we are with concours restorations, I can't imagine anyone even thinking of restoring a car correctly with a color change. Maybe I'm naive on the subject, but hopefully this is a non-issue going forward.
Correct and color change, just don't go together in my opinion.
What the heck kind of judges couldn't detect that the color was not offered Shelby color? Seems like a "wrong" color should have got the deduction anyway. This clown made fools out of the show judges and is laughing all the way to his trophy...lol
I am sorry to hear that the board caved to the pressure of some whiner because it sets a precedent for more whiners to get their way in the future. I suppose a effort for more education on what is expected would be in order. As if we haven't tried that before in the past. ::) Every car entered is expected to be of such quality that it would at least have a chance to qualify for one of the awards eligible. With that said maybe a one on one discussion with the head/lead judge of the particular class with entrants so that the entrant is aware of what is expected of them and their car if entered. SAAC forum members are typically aware of requirements or at least will typically ask questions related to the venue. It is those that don't keep up on current expectations that are at issue. I am glad to see the mandatory multi picture requirement being implemented . I believe the cars being restored and built up to the day before the concours event should not be given a picture pass . There have been cars in the past almost every year that were entered that had no business being judged . I don't know of any concours judge in the SAAC ,MCA or Mid America Shelby community that enjoys telling a entrant that their car is not ready for concours judging regardless of if restorer or a owner . By prequalifying the cars it saves the entrant time and money and possibly embarrassment. It saves the judge from the sensitive issue of explaining to the entrant why their car is not qualified to be judged. Compromising a enthusiast's enthusiasm on purpose is not what any of us signed up for. Keep in mind that judging is done by those volunteering their time. I for one do not want to give up my vacation time on a car that does not qualify minimum standards.
A personal choice or preference on ones vehicle that deviates from how it originally left S.A. should disqualify it from a concours judging event or suffer severe points deductions.
Quote from: tesgt350 on March 19, 2019, 03:31:42 PM
How could it be considered Concourse if it had a Color Change?
Quote from: Frankie on March 19, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
What the heck kind of judges couldn't detect that the color was not offered Shelby color? Seems like a "wrong" color should have got the deduction anyway. This clown made fools out of the show judges and is laughing all the way to his trophy...lol
I suppose you didn't read or didn't understand the original post otherwise you would not have misspoke and blamed the problem on the judge. It was the board that reinstated the points for the wrong color. Apparently the board took the owners argument at face value and made their judgment without knowing all of the related facts . Regardless of color change , wrong tint, non Shelby color. It still remains as wrong color for the car. The judge/judges apparently deducted legitimately and did their job as expected .
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 19, 2019, 04:37:30 PM
I am sorry to hear that the board caved to the pressure of some whiner because it sets a precedent for more whiners to get their way in the future. I suppose a effort for more education on what is expected would be in order. As if we haven't tried that before in the past. ::) Every car entered is expected to be of such quality that it would at least have a chance to qualify for one of the awards eligible. With that said maybe a one on one discussion with the head/lead judge of the particular class with entrants so that the entrant is aware of what is expected of them and their car if entered. SAAC forum members are typically aware of requirements or at least will typically ask questions related to the venue. It is those that don't keep up on current expectations that are at issue. I am glad to see the mandatory multi picture requirement being implemented . I believe the cars being restored and built up to the day before the concours event should not be given a picture pass . There have been cars in the past almost every year that were entered that had no business being judged . I don't know of any concours judge in the SAAC ,MCA or Mid America Shelby community that enjoys telling a entrant that their car is not ready for concours judging regardless of if restorer or a owner . By prequalifying the cars it saves the entrant time and money and possibly embarrassment. It saves the judge from the sensitive issue of explaining to the entrant why their car is not qualified to be judged. Compromising a enthusiast's enthusiasm on purpose is not what any of us signed up for. Keep in mind that judging is done by those volunteering their time. I for one do not want to give up my vacation time on a car that does not qualify minimum standards.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 19, 2019, 04:54:56 PM
Quote from: Frankie on March 19, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
What the heck kind of judges couldn't detect that the color was not offered Shelby color? Seems like a "wrong" color should have got the deduction anyway. This clown made fools out of the show judges and is laughing all the way to his trophy...lol
I suppose you didn't read or didn't understand the original post otherwise you would not have misspoke and blamed the problem on the judge. It was the board that reinstated the points for the wrong color. Apparently the board took the owners argument at face value and made their judgment without knowing all of the related facts . Regardless of color change , wrong tint, non Shelby color. It still remains as wrong color for the car. The judge/judges apparently deducted legitimately and did their job as expected .
If it's the same board that has jurisdiction over this site that doesn't surprise me.
Chris
Quote from: acman63 on March 19, 2019, 03:13:39 PM
We had an issue awhile back with a car that was being judged had been a color change . After the owner had been told that the color change would be a severe deduction the owner made a big stink and emailed all the Board of directors saying that we were changing the rules (which we didnt) It was clear in the judging sheets that the deduction was 30 points. It seems somewhere in the archives of ancient SAAC judging he found something that said any Shelby American color that was applicable for that year would be acceptable . Im not sure how old that was but I couldnt find it going back ten years. Ironically after all this hissy fit and agreeing to re-instate the points we later found out that the color the car was painted wasnt even a shelby color . We had 27 owners that followed the rules and 1 that made a hissy fit and got his way. If it was my call I would have let the deductions stand.
Thus, this is where we are now on color changes. We are of the concensus that the color of the car when it left the factory is very, very important . Going forward , A car that is Color changed entered in SAAC Premiere (D1) will not be allowed to be judged period! It will be be downgraded to SAAC Concours! However in SAAC Concourse (D2) a color change will be allowed to be judged as long as its a color that was available for that year car! BUT that car will not be eligible for a gold award at all and will basicly start as a Silver and go from there.
We feel this rule is one that will help SAAC protect the integrity of the Marque and SAAC Judging
This rule (color change no deduction for factory available colors for that M/Y) was put in place some time in the mid to late 90's for division 2 cars only. I am not sure when it was dropped.
Rodney
I totally agree with the proposed changes, any change of color in in both divisions of concours requires a stiff penalty.
Mike Shally
Slightly off topic, but is there any deduction for Le Mans stripes on a post 1966 Shelby Mustang? If not, I think there should be. Not joking.
Jon
Quote from: 1175 on March 19, 2019, 08:41:05 PM
Slightly off topic, but is there any deduction for Le Mans stripes on a post 1966 Shelby Mustang? If not, I think there should be. Not joking.
Jon
Yes there is a deduction for that
Quote from: JD on March 19, 2019, 08:42:36 PM
Quote from: 1175 on March 19, 2019, 08:41:05 PM
Slightly off topic, but is there any deduction for Le Mans stripes on a post 1966 Shelby Mustang? If not, I think there should be. Not joking.
Jon
Yes there is a deduction for that
To add- unless reasonable proof can be provided to support the addition prior to delivery to the first owner . This is in place for any out of the ordinary issue that may be on or done to a particular car. With that said I have yet to have supporting reasonable proof of installation of Lemans stripe prior to first owner delivery provided for a regular production 67 Shelby in SAAC ,MCA or Mid America concours venues.
Quote from: Frankie on March 19, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
What the heck kind of judges couldn't detect that the color was not offered Shelby color? Seems like a "wrong" color should have got the deduction anyway. This clown made fools out of the show judges and is laughing all the way to his trophy...lol
Fool Judges LOL ??? Hardly! Maybe instead of making a ridiculous post like you made, you should come out and help judge sometime instead of sitting on the bleachers taking pot shots behind a keyboard. Find out what really goes on on the show field. The judging teams are some of the most knowledgeable people concerning shelbys in the world. They dont get paid, they travel to the show on their own dime . They face extreme pressure to make sure the cars are judged fairly under sometimes extreme conditions . You shouldn't cast aspersions about something without knowing the facts and you didn't read the original post very closely . The judges properly deducted the maximum 30 points downgrading the car to a silver when referencing the original rouge iris as original and the car painted the light blue at the show. . Unless you carry original ac cars color chips around I doubt you would notice any factory color differences between the color it was painted and the original AC Cars Princess Blue.
And by the way. The Board of Directors didn't cave in on the decision . The owner had the old rule and this was the impetus for us to make the change and put the old rule out to pasture . Personally , I would love to say , incorrect color - we aren't going to even judge the car even in D2 . But we dont want to make this so strict that nobody will bring out their cars. Trust me , restoring a car to show standard and then carting it all over the country to shows is a lot of time and effort not to mention cost. Our goal is to achieve a happy medium and not drive the show car owners away .
I assisted with judging at SAAC40, with Brant, but I guess I'm not clear on how awards are decided. I thought the head judges comprised the Board; is this not the case? Can someone outline how a car is determined to receive an award after the judge who actually rated the car submits his points sheet? Thanks!
Quote from: BrentW on March 19, 2019, 11:37:25 PM
I assisted with judging at SAAC40, with Brant, but I guess I'm not clear on how awards are decided. I thought the head judges comprised the Board; is this not the case? Can someone outline how a car is determined to receive an award after the judge who actually rated the car submits his points sheet? Thanks!
If I understand your question correctly then you are mistaken if you think that the judge determines the award. They do indirectly. For a particular class the sheet with the deductions for all of the given category's of the car are submitted to the tally room . The tally room adds up the deductions and subtracts them from a standardized total for the given class. A award is given based on the points total. A minimum percentage amount of points is needed for Gold ,Silver and Bronze awards . As the system stands the judge is not supposed to know what award is given for a particular car prior to the award being announced (at the banquet typically). This is because he/they are not supposed to tally the sheets before the tally room does. The judge determines the award in so much as he/they find the items to be deducted ,indicate what they are on the sheet and access the value for the given item to be deducted based on a percentage given for the area being judged. Someone else adds up the sheets and determines if a given car has the points to merit a award.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 20, 2019, 12:56:01 AM
Quote from: BrentW on March 19, 2019, 11:37:25 PM
I assisted with judging at SAAC40, with Brant, but I guess I'm not clear on how awards are decided. I thought the head judges comprised the Board; is this not the case? Can someone outline how a car is determined to receive an award after the judge who actually rated the car submits his points sheet? Thanks!
If I understand your question correctly then you are mistaken if you think that the judge determines the award. They do indirectly. For a particular class the sheet with the deductions for all of the given category's of the car are submitted to the tally room . The tally room adds up the deductions and subtracts them from a standardized total for the given class. A award is given based on the points total. A minimum percentage amount of points is needed for Gold ,Silver and Bronze awards . As the system stands the judge is not supposed to know what award is given for a particular car prior to the award being announced (at the banquet typically). This is because he/they are not supposed to tally the sheets before the tally room does. The judge determines the award in so much as he/they find the items to be deducted ,indicate what they are on the sheet and access the value for the given item to be deducted based on a percentage given for the area being judged. Someone else adds up the sheets and determines if a given car has the points to merit a award.
Thanks, Bob. I understood that the individual judge didn't determine awards but I thought it was the head judges' decision. Who works in the tally room and are the Board and head judge(s) not the same?
Quote from: BrentW on March 20, 2019, 01:03:01 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 20, 2019, 12:56:01 AM
Quote from: BrentW on March 19, 2019, 11:37:25 PM
I assisted with judging at SAAC40, with Brant, but I guess I'm not clear on how awards are decided. I thought the head judges comprised the Board; is this not the case? Can someone outline how a car is determined to receive an award after the judge who actually rated the car submits his points sheet? Thanks!
If I understand your question correctly then you are mistaken if you think that the judge determines the award. They do indirectly. For a particular class the sheet with the deductions for all of the given category's of the car are submitted to the tally room . The tally room adds up the deductions and subtracts them from a standardized total for the given class. A award is given based on the points total. A minimum percentage amount of points is needed for Gold ,Silver and Bronze awards . As the system stands the judge is not supposed to know what award is given for a particular car prior to the award being announced (at the banquet typically). This is because he/they are not supposed to tally the sheets before the tally room does. The judge determines the award in so much as he/they find the items to be deducted ,indicate what they are on the sheet and access the value for the given item to be deducted based on a percentage given for the area being judged. Someone else adds up the sheets and determines if a given car has the points to merit a award.
Thanks, Bob. I understood that the individual judge didn't determine awards but I thought it was the head judges' decision. Who works in the tally room and are the Board and head judge(s) not the same?
Volunteers are assigned by one of the two concours chairman to tally the sheets. The board refers to the board of directors for the SAAC club. The Board of Directors of SAAC and the various head/lead judges that volunteer their time and expertise for a given class are different.
Quote from: BrentW on March 20, 2019, 01:03:01 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 20, 2019, 12:56:01 AM
Quote from: BrentW on March 19, 2019, 11:37:25 PM
I assisted with judging at SAAC40, with Brant, but I guess I'm not clear on how awards are decided. I thought the head judges comprised the Board; is this not the case? Can someone outline how a car is determined to receive an award after the judge who actually rated the car submits his points sheet? Thanks!
If I understand your question correctly then you are mistaken if you think that the judge determines the award. They do indirectly. For a particular class the sheet with the deductions for all of the given category's of the car are submitted to the tally room . The tally room adds up the deductions and subtracts them from a standardized total for the given class. A award is given based on the points total. A minimum percentage amount of points is needed for Gold ,Silver and Bronze awards . As the system stands the judge is not supposed to know what award is given for a particular car prior to the award being announced (at the banquet typically). This is because he/they are not supposed to tally the sheets before the tally room does. The judge determines the award in so much as he/they find the items to be deducted ,indicate what they are on the sheet and access the value for the given item to be deducted based on a percentage given for the area being judged. Someone else adds up the sheets and determines if a given car has the points to merit a award.
Thanks, Bob. I understood that the individual judge didn't determine awards but I thought it was the head judges' decision. Who works in the tally room and are the Board and head judge(s) not the same?
The head judges influences the decision as I indicated in reply 15.
As 1966 head judge I agree with this decision 100%. However, I do not understand why the points on the car in question would be reinstated due to something found in the archives. In the past 30 years since I have been a head judge we have changed judging rules and scoring on various items at least 6 times (without the approval of the board). The current sheets were just reworked few years ago and many point values changed and some things that had been allowed in the past were revised. I personally do not ever remember us ever allowing a color change in any of the classes, but if we did back then, a lot of rules have changed since then, and it is very clear on the current judging sheets that it is a mandatory 30 point deduction for a color change. We learn more about the "marque" all the time and the judging rules over the years have been changed to reflect this new knowledge.
Having said all that, the decision of the board is final and I accept that. They are the ultimate authority and I will abide by whatever decision they make.
I know this is about a 1967 Shelby with a Color Change. Some are OK with it as long as a 1967 Mustang Color was used. So, what if it was a 1965 Shelby Mustang? All were White, what if the owner changed it to Tropical Turquoise? Would that owner be given the exact same considerations? Or an Owner of a Black Hertz changes the Color to Springtime Yellow? If you give one a pass, you MUST give them all a pass.
I see this discussion is about "Color Change", I would assume this is about changing the color completely, understandable and agree its too far off line for concours judging. But as a side note I think when it comes to the Ford factory colors from 65-69/70 its straight forward,.... I would argue some of the Cobras I've seen with "Original Paint" can have variances, (lighter/darker tones and shades). I would also say the same thing about the areas or parts on a 65-69/70 Shelby that were not painted at ford, variances in shades and tones). I would thing judges would be allowing or even have some level of expectation of these areas.
Chris
Jmo, but if you start or better yet don't close that door then logically you open up can of worms that if the paint can be changed with a correct year color then it shouldn't matter if parts be changed, (for example A/C hood vs non A/C hood on a 67 Shelby with out deduction). again, jmo it all starts to unravel. Concours should be in the line and efforts of being as correct as possible to the way the car left the dealership.
Chris
Quote from: thefordshow on March 20, 2019, 07:07:51 AM
I see this discussion is about "Color Change", I would assume this is about changing the color completely, understandable and agree its too far off line for concours judging. But as a side note I think when it comes to the Ford factory colors from 65-69/70 its straight forward,.... I would argue some of the Cobras I've seen with "Original Paint" can have variances, (lighter/darker tones and shades). I would also say the same thing about the areas or parts on a 65-69/70 Shelby that were not painted at ford, variances in shades and tones). I would thing judges would be allowing or even have some level of expectation of these areas.
Chris
Original Paint is just that, Original, you can't dispute it. JMO, If you are entering in any Concours Class, even Driven Concours, your Shelby needs to be "as it left SAI". Other wise you are just Lying to yourself and everyone else.
Time to have a Lawyer look over the rules. I guess it's time to add a line about the rules that states rules used will be as of XXXXX date and no rules earlier will apply.
Gimme a break over the "volunteers time, money, sweat, etc" as doesn't anyone think the entrants have the same expenses, worries, cares.
clear coating should also be a deduction as it never left the factory that way. not a big deduction just 1 point. the car can still score 99 out of 100, it just shouldnt be judged 100 pt perfect car.
single stage paints are still available.
Quote from: tesgt350 on March 20, 2019, 07:03:25 AM
I know this is about a 1967 Shelby with a Color Change. Some are OK with it as long as a 1967 Mustang Color was used. So, what if it was a 1965 Shelby Mustang? All were White, what if the owner changed it to Tropical Turquoise? Would that owner be given the exact same considerations? Or an Owner of a Black Hertz changes the Color to Springtime Yellow? If you give one a pass, you MUST give them all a pass.
You are under the wrong impression. It is not about a 67 color change. I only spoke up because the issue has to do with all judging classes regardless of year or model. This issue brought up was about a Cobra. Reply #13.
There is room for everyone in this club which is what makes it cool..My car will never be concours but I realize the importance of these type of cars,they ARE the gold standard and should be AS DELIVERED in every way including color..If exceptions are made where do you set the bar? Also it is very,very expensive to jump through all the hoops to get to this point(including proper paint color,texture,etc)Because of that it is patently unfair to "give someone a pass"when others took the time / effort to do it correctly.Kudos to the concours judges for doing a demanding (and in cases like this ,unpleasant)job for no remuneration.THEY keep the marque strong IMHO.
Quote from: thefordshow on March 20, 2019, 07:07:51 AM
I see this discussion is about "Color Change", I would assume this is about changing the color completely, understandable and agree its too far off line for concours judging. But as a side note I think when it comes to the Ford factory colors from 65-69/70 its straight forward,.... I would argue some of the Cobras I've seen with "Original Paint" can have variances, (lighter/darker tones and shades). I would also say the same thing about the areas or parts on a 65-69/70 Shelby that were not painted at ford, variances in shades and tones). I would thing judges would be allowing or even have some level of expectation of these areas.
Chris
Anyone who has worked with a lot of survivor cars or seen old vintage color photos of the cars can attest to the variations on the SA painted parts compared to Ford. Rest assured the knowledgably SAAC concours judging staff takes those things into account.
Quote from: roddster on March 20, 2019, 09:49:52 AM
Time to have a Lawyer look over the rules. I guess it's time to add a line about the rules that states rules used will be as of XXXXX date and no rules earlier will apply.
Gimme a break over the "volunteers time, money, sweat, etc" as doesn't anyone think the entrants have the same expenses, worries, cares.
Rod, I think you need a break making a statement like that disrespecting all of the volunteers efforts. The difference is the entrants are doing it for themselves and their car . The volunteers are doing it for others. ;)
Most of the issues that are addressed about concours judging could be eliminated by having
the written rules or judging sheets available to the membership. The owner of the car or restorer
could then be aware of issues and correct problems or at least ask questions to get to a
better outcome BEFORE presenting the car.
Every other car club that I belong to has these documents available
Sue
Quote from: mustmore on March 20, 2019, 12:45:17 PM
Most of the issues that are addressed about concours judging could be eliminated by having
the written rules or judging sheets available to the membership. The owner of the car or restorer
could then be aware of issues and correct problems or at least ask questions to get to a
better outcome BEFORE presenting the car.
Every other car club that I belong to has these documents available
Sue
Interestingly enough they are available if you ask.
Best advice is 'if your not sure, ask'.
Chris
Quote from: mustmore on March 20, 2019, 12:45:17 PM
Most of the issues that are addressed about concours judging could be eliminated by having
the written rules or judging sheets available to the membership. The owner of the car or restorer
could then be aware of issues and correct problems or at least ask questions to get to a
better outcome BEFORE presenting the car.
Every other car club that I belong to has these documents available
Sue
They are for the asking but they are always the previous years sheets
Quote from: mustmore on March 20, 2019, 12:45:17 PM
Most of the issues that are addressed about concours judging could be eliminated by having
the written rules or judging sheets available to the membership. The owner of the car or restorer
could then be aware of issues and correct problems or at least ask questions to get to a
better outcome BEFORE presenting the car.
Every other car club that I belong to has these documents available
Sue
Are you volunteering to help with that??? :) :) :)
Quote from: CharlesTurner on March 20, 2019, 01:56:07 PM
Quote from: mustmore on March 20, 2019, 12:45:17 PM
Most of the issues that are addressed about concours judging could be eliminated by having
the written rules or judging sheets available to the membership. The owner of the car or restorer
could then be aware of issues and correct problems or at least ask questions to get to a
better outcome BEFORE presenting the car.
Every other car club that I belong to has these documents available
Sue
Are you volunteering to help with that??? :) :) :)
Who would want to volunteer with such a boondoggle?
I know for a fact, a couple of years ago someone made the suggestion to post the rules and regulations and even wrote up some basic info and it went nowhere. That person was a volunteer and has left in frustration.
Concours is only part of the bigger problem.
The bigger problem is the club Bored of Directing.
Quote from: EdwardGT350 on March 20, 2019, 11:26:14 AM
clear coating should also be a deduction as it never left the factory that way. not a big deduction just 1 point. the car can still score 99 out of 100, it just shouldnt be judged 100 pt perfect car.
single stage paints are still available.
Some later colors Do look great with a coat of clear...
In response to reply #33
SURE I've helped with writing the rules and judging sheets for other clubs. It's just
tedious work that needs to be done with the cooperation of others to double check
the product.
I would like to see the current rules/sheets if they are available as stated.
Thanks
Sue
Jim C can provide the judging sheets
Quote from: mustmore on March 20, 2019, 11:15:35 PM
In response to reply #33
SURE I've helped with writing the rules and judging sheets for other clubs. It's just
tedious work that needs to be done with the cooperation of others to double check
the product.
I would like to see the current rules/sheets if they are available as stated.
Thanks
Sue
My lip is bleeding...
Quote from: Coralsnake on March 21, 2019, 09:42:27 AM
My lip is bleeding...
Is the blood red or another available blood color?
Jim I'm willing to help with the 68 class or work with a group.
Mike Shally
This is a good place for me to jump in and say I really appreciate all the volunteers who help make the SAAC annual conventions possible. I do not get to attend every year but have attended numerous times. I have always gotten a great deal of enjoyment from these from these events. Since I have a strong passion for these special 1960's era cars that SAAC helps create a common platform for "US" to enjoy the cars with facts and opinions alike and present our own personal interpretations without undo ridicule.
Some people like the challenge of reaching a high level of restoration of these cars and then obtaining an objective measure of their efforts. It requires a lot of effort, time and money to get the car ready and additional effort to find out the "ins & outs" of attending shows and having their car judged. This is a choice and for those people it is a sign of their passion for their car. On the other hand, the volunteers required to organize the show, establish guidelines to judge by, work with car owners, the public, Sunday morning and Monday morning quarterbacks and 50 other things that unexpectedly happen during a show event get their satisfaction by providing a service to others and seeing really nice cars up close and personal. It is a thankless job that I want to express my sincere appreciation for. Just the opportunity to have people that are "the known experts" on our cars offer their services is outstanding and not found in many other situations. All judges and Volunteers I THANK YOU WITH THE UPMOST PREJUDICE.
Everyone can enjoy our Club, the cars and fellowship of other owners. Everyone does not have to have a concours level car. Everyone has the opportunity to personalize their car as they see fit and still be fully accepted within our community. However, it takes individuals willing to give their time and effort to have a club and have events we can all enjoy. I encourage everyone to remember that fact when we share with each other.
Tom Gilliam
+1... My 1st SAAC Meet was SAAC 42 in Indy and I really appreciate the effort put forth by everyone involved. I had my '69 judged and I must say everyone I had the opportunity to interact with was very nice, helpful and professional. I agree if you have never assisted in an endeavor such as this then you shouldn't be belly aching. Again my thanks to all the volunteers who give so much of their time. I wanted to attend last year and again this year but I had a Grand Daughter born last June and another one due this June. Family comes before cars so maybe next year... :)Just my 2 cents.
TOB
I would LOVE to have my car originally white, or blue... or red; but as Kermit the Frog said, "It's hard to be Green". I agree whole heartedly with the appreciation expressed for the judges, volunteers, Event Masters. I also support the points deduction for non-original color; same year or otherwise. If you want to compete with your blue car, start off with a blue car.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/VTVkjiRwO4LgA/giphy.gif)
Quote from: EdwardGT350 on March 20, 2019, 11:26:14 AM
clear coating should also be a deduction as it never left the factory that way. not a big deduction just 1 point. the car can still score 99 out of 100, it just shouldnt be judged 100 pt perfect car.
single stage paints are still available.
I will never be in a Concours event but some states you can't even use the original paints and if you can find them, technically they are illegal to use. Commiefornia being one of the worst offenders. Finding even the right paint mixture is extremely difficult. So when you start splitting hairs 60 years after the manufacture of a vehicle. Where do we draw the line?
Are we going to start using color chips to verify one manufacturer to another's interpretation of a color used on a vehicle and score them down?
I guess at the end of the day, I just don't care. I want to enjoy my vehicle and drive it. It's not going to sit hidden away in a garage or trailer and deteriorate so I can put trophies on a mantle to catch dust.
I am not even sure the SAAC has a class for vehicles with a color variation and chrome under the hood.
-Keith
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on April 10, 2019, 08:31:05 PM
...I am not even sure the SAAC has a class for vehicles with a color variation and chrome under the hood.
-Keith
Sure they do Keith, it's called popular vote. ;)
Chris, My vehicle is extremely well done and for the most part NOS or approved replacement parts. I just went with some shine and a few suspension changes. However, I would NEVER go the Resto-mod route of huge changes that aren't easily reversed. Probably the closest change on my vehicle that would be truly problematic is the period under-ride traction bars and removing the welded on bracket.
-Keith
Quote from: Chris Thauberger on April 10, 2019, 09:15:50 PM
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on April 10, 2019, 08:31:05 PM
...I am not even sure the SAAC has a class for vehicles with a color variation and chrome under the hood.
-Keith
Sure they do Keith, it's called popular vote. ;)
Like at a cats, dogs, llamas show... they all have fur and are cuddly...
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on April 10, 2019, 11:38:11 PM
Chris, My vehicle is extremely well done and for the most part NOS or approved replacement parts. I just went with some shine and a few suspension changes. However, I would NEVER go the Resto-mod route of huge changes that aren't easily reversed. Probably the closest change on my vehicle that would be truly problematic is the period under-ride traction bars and removing the welded on bracket.
-Keith
just how we like them, drivable and enjoyed
Keith your car looks awesome!
[/quote]
Like at a cats, dogs, llamas show... they all have fur and are cuddly...
[/quote]
we also like animals, some of them medium well...
Yes! Hold the Tofu please! ;D
-Keith
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on April 10, 2019, 11:38:11 PM
Chris, My vehicle is extremely well done and for the most part NOS or approved replacement parts. I just went with some shine and a few suspension changes. However, I would NEVER go the Resto-mod route of huge changes that aren't easily reversed. Probably the closest change on my vehicle that would be truly problematic is the period under-ride traction bars and removing the welded on bracket.
-Keith
Keith
I have no doubt you car is as you describe. I have followed your numerous threads both here and over on CMF. I like you attitude.
I was simply answering you question about whether SAAC had a class that allowed color variation and chrome under the hood.
They do. I called it the popular vote and I guess it called the peoples choice. My bad.
If you or others are somehow offended by my answer that's not my problem.
Nothing more nothing less.
Chris
P.S. Now that the snow has melted and the roads are being cleaned I am looking forward to driving my car. Also, I just dusted the award yesterday :)
Quote from: Chris Thauberger on April 11, 2019, 10:05:58 AM
Keith
I have no doubt you car is as you describe. I have followed your numerous threads both here and over on CMF. I like you attitude.
I was simply answering you question about whether SAAC had a class that allowed color variation and chrome under the hood.
They do. I called it the popular vote and I guess it called the peoples choice. My bad.
If you or others are somehow offended by my answer that's not my problem.
Nothing more nothing less.
Chris
P.S. Now that the snow has melted and the roads are being cleaned I am looking forward to driving my car. Also, I just dusted the award yesterday :)
^^^ Yes, and not all Concours cars are sealed away in climate-controlled tombs - some do get driven and enjoyed.
I have no doubt you car is as you describe. I have followed your numerous threads both here and over on CMF. I like you attitude.
I was simply answering you question about whether SAAC had a class that allowed color variation and chrome under the hood.
They do. I called it the popular vote and I guess it called the peoples choice. My bad.
If you or others are somehow offended by my answer that's not my problem.
Nothing more nothing less.
Chris
P.S. Now that the snow has melted and the roads are being cleaned I am looking forward to driving my car. Also, I just dusted the award yesterday :)
Chris: I am not offended, because I don't care much about what others think. I try to share my passion and joy with others but my nature is forthright and direct. Decisions I make on a daily basis are done with 194 people counting on them which their very life depends. I'm a solid quiet individual in person.
However, there are some that have such a narrow view on these vehicles that anything other than bone stock is sacrilege.
Our cars earned their reputation on the track and street. Not on the back of a trailer.
-Keith
Yep, our 69 mach gets drove a lot!! but, it is concours correct. I recently entered the conservator class from the MCA "concours driven" class. We drive it at Mustang Week in Myrtle Beach, SC, also at the Ponies in the Smokies, local cruise shows, etc,etc,...
And just out for that Sunday.........Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday......Drive ;D
I have a 1968 perspective...Im not sure which owners or cars the opinion that they are "sealed away and never driven" is about...SAAC has had 39 Gold Champions (1968 Shelbys) in the last 25 years. Many of those cars are now driven.
So basically, by perpetuating the myth that show cars are never driven, one would be basing that on maybe one car a year?
Sounds like a terribly small sample size to me.
Im sure other years are similar. Can we drop the divisive nature of show car vs driven car?
It seems very childish to me, having done both....if you cant or dont wish to build a concours car, just enjoy them and the thousands of hours research that goes into them, to make your car what you want it to be.
I would make this prediction if SAAC ever did drop the car show portion of the event, the attendance would also drop.
This reminds me of the pre67 vs post67 arguments if a car is "real Shelby"
Personally, I have grown really tired of that immaturity of that as well.
Signed
Stay off my lawn guy
Quote from: Coralsnake on April 13, 2019, 08:08:31 AM
I have a 1968 perspective...Im not sure which owners or cars the opinion that they are "sealed away and never driven" is about...SAAC has had 39 Gold Champions (1968 Shelbys) in the last 25 years. Many of those cars are now driven.
So basically, by perpetuating the myth that show cars are never driven, one would be basing that on maybe one car a year?
Sounds like a terribly small sample size to me.
Im sure other years are similar. Can we drop the divisive nature of show car vs driven car?
It seems very childish to me, having done both....if you cant or dont wish to build a concours car, just enjoy them and the thousands of hours research that goes into them, to make your car what you want it to be.
I would make this prediction if SAAC ever did drop the car show portion of the event, the attendance would also drop.
This reminds me of the pre67 vs post67 arguments if a car is "real Shelby"
Personally, I have grown really tired of that immaturity of that as well.
Signed
Stay off my lawn guy
Hum? It's more then that. It's the term "correct".
What happens is when you are sitting on the "Group W" bench, and when the father rapers hear that you are just a littler bug. They all move away from you.
Some don't want to be associated with someone who is "incorrect".
I don't blame the Shelby guys for this however. Generally speaking the ones I know of from going way back are some of the most "incorrect" people that I have ever met. I don't take exception to that because many accept me and appreciate me for my lack of perfection. So I want to show reciprocity.
I attribute this attitude as coming from other persuasions such as people wandering over here from the Ferarri, Lamborghini, Hemi and Corvette circles. I mean, we just leave the door unlocked here and let anyone in to join and post? They simply presume that "Grey Poupon" must be requested within the proper channels? Au contraire!
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on April 13, 2019, 12:34:15 AM
I have no doubt you car is as you describe. I have followed your numerous threads both here and over on CMF. I like you attitude.
I was simply answering you question about whether SAAC had a class that allowed color variation and chrome under the hood.
They do. I called it the popular vote and I guess it called the peoples choice. My bad.
If you or others are somehow offended by my answer that's not my problem.
Nothing more nothing less.
Chris
P.S. Now that the snow has melted and the roads are being cleaned I am looking forward to driving my car. Also, I just dusted the award yesterday :)
Chris: I am not offended, because I don't care much about what others think. I try to share my passion and joy with others but my nature is forthright and direct. Decisions I make on a daily basis are done with 194 people counting on them which their very life depends. I'm a solid quiet individual in person.
However, there are some that have such a narrow view on these vehicles that anything other than bone stock is sacrilege.
Our cars earned their reputation on the track and street. Not on the back of a trailer.
-Keith
Keith
It may not surprise you to know you have the same characteristics as many of the members I have met over the past few years. We seem to be drawn to each other. In person they are genuine and soft spoken (well, most of them) ;) some of the nicest people I will ever have the privilege of knowing.
On this site I can understand why some might get the impression that there is an 'elite' mentality. I guarantee if you knew some of them personally you would understand the inaccuracy of that perception.
I think in general many of us here are all very direct and passionate about what we believe. I don't take anything personally because, like you I am not bothered by what other think of me, never have been.
I agree that some individuals think that their idea of the perfect car is the only way it should be, whether that is driven or concours. As Rick would say "the people in the cheap seats boo the loudest". I have to side with Pete on this one as I too believe it to be childish behavior. I have accepted the fact that some people never grow up, just the way it is.
I enjoy the time I spend on this site and the conventions I have attended. When they get closer to the middle of the country I will return.
Hope to meet you in person some day Keith, I think we would have plenty to talk about.
Chris
I believe these microscopic changes are driven by a very few folks who feel it is beneath their talent to judge what they perceive is beneath their level of competance.
Like a major league umpire who wouldn't umpire a little league game.
Perhaps my comments are from a personal attack from a purist. Essentially, I was "destroying" the vehicle and someone of my youth and exuberance wasn't worthy of such a vehicle. I feel I did the vehicle justice in it's intent and design based on the lineage it was derived from.
Vehicle personalization is what created racing and hot rodding itself. I grew up in the cradle of hot rodding, knew many of the big players and saw just about everything that could be done to a vehicle growing up and living in So Ca.
I don't have an issue with those who are purist, as long as they don't look down their snout at those who want to actually use their vehicle and often make changes with safety and driveability in mind. I don't see them as a daily driver because they are not practical as such. I also see how bad drivers are and It requires one when driving to be ever vigilant of the mass of zombies who are so inconsiderate of public safety that they are constantly distracted by their personal electronics they can't seem to take a moment from.
I have always credited smart phones with the detachment to humanity and destruction of verbal communication. I am an extremely defensive driver, which I have avoided many who aren't.
Chris: I look forward to meeting you and others who feel as I do; That the legacy we represent should be kept alive.
Although my vehicle hasn't been in a magazine, we have to make them real and three dimensional to the younger crowd or they will die with our generation.
There is nothing sweeter than to hear a big block with a long duration cam burbling through long tube headers and a deep, throaty low exhaust tone.... Well, perhaps only superseded by the spool up of a turbofan with 27,000 pounds of thrust, but I digress.
We must figure out how to distract millennials from their cell phone and video games and get them engage in what the vehicles of this era offer.
-Keith
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on April 13, 2019, 08:50:38 PM
Perhaps my comments are from a personal attack from a purist. Essentially, I was "destroying" the vehicle and someone of my youth and exuberance wasn't worthy of such a vehicle. I feel I did the vehicle justice in it's intent and design based on the lineage it was derived from.
Vehicle personalization is what created racing and hot rodding itself. I grew up in the cradle of hot rodding, knew many of the big players and saw just about everything that could be done to a vehicle growing up and living in So Ca.
I don't have an issue with those who are purist, as long as they don't look down their snout at those who want to actually use their vehicle and often make changes with safety and driveability in mind. I don't see them as a daily driver because they are not practical as such. I also see how bad drivers are and It requires one when driving to be ever vigilant of the mass of zombies who are so inconsiderate of public safety that they are constantly distracted by their personal electronics they can't seem to take a moment from.
I have always credited smart phones with the detachment to humanity and destruction of verbal communication. I am an extremely defensive driver, which I have avoided many who aren't.
Although my vehicle hasn't been in a magazine, we have to make them real and three dimensional to the younger crowd or they will die with our generation.
There is nothing sweeter than to hear a big block with a long duration cam burbling through long tube headers and a deep, throaty low exhaust tone.... Well, perhaps only superseded by the spool up of a turbofan with 27,000 pounds of thrust, but I digress.
We must figure out how to distract millennials from their cell phone and video games and get them engage in what the vehicles of this era offer.
-Keith
+ 1
Quote from: 1967 eight barrel on April 13, 2019, 08:50:38 PM
Perhaps my comments are from a personal attack from a purist. Essentially, I was "destroying" the vehicle and someone of my youth and exuberance wasn't worthy of such a vehicle. I feel I did the vehicle justice in it's intent and design based on the lineage it was derived from.
Vehicle personalization is what created racing and hot rodding itself. I grew up in the cradle of hot rodding, knew many of the big players and saw just about everything that could be done to a vehicle growing up and living in So Ca.
I don't have an issue with those who are purist, as long as they don't look down their snout at those who want to actually use their vehicle and often make changes with safety and driveability in mind. I don't see them as a daily driver because they are not practical as such. I also see how bad drivers are and It requires one when driving to be ever vigilant of the mass of zombies who are so inconsiderate of public safety that they are constantly distracted by their personal electronics they can't seem to take a moment from.
I have always credited smart phones with the detachment to humanity and destruction of verbal communication. I am an extremely defensive driver, which I have avoided many who aren't.
Chris: I look forward to meeting you and others who feel as I do; That the legacy we represent should be kept alive.
Although my vehicle hasn't been in a magazine, we have to make them real and three dimensional to the younger crowd or they will die with our generation.
There is nothing sweeter than to hear a big block with a long duration cam burbling through long tube headers and a deep, throaty low exhaust tone.... Well, perhaps only superseded by the spool up of a turbofan with 27,000 pounds of thrust, but I digress.
We must figure out how to distract millennials from their cell phone and video games and get them engage in what the vehicles of this era offer.
-Keith
^^^^ Couldn't of said it better ;)
Concours is a competition. It has issues because there is no written rule book. It's difficult to be 100% prepared for judging because of that.
What's more, we have disagreement amongst the judges themselves and have had some resign as a result.
Across the hobby, big dollar sales by big dollar auction houses clearly market cars with portfolios as being the best as being proven by Concours judging results.
Many questions here are questions as to what is "correct" rather then what is accurate to an original car. Many responses are by current active judges.
That's all fine but again, it needs to be remembered that that is somewhere around 1% of the participating membership yet accounts for 95% of the questions.
Complaining or criticizing that is simply put, over reaction. At least 95% of the participating membership is a "popular vote" car show interest. The popular vote car show is still a major part of the national convention if not THE major part of the convention.
If you are not an active participant in judged Concours, why worry about what goes on there?
Build your car the way you want it and how you enjoy it. Life is short. Go lay down some rubber. Let the Concours guys worry about the Grey Popoun? You worry too much.
^^^^^ yeppers
Peoples Choice has always been a very enjoyable & interesting class at conventions & other shows... 8)