I dug out three sets of Ford original point sets.
Yes, they are the straight dual point line type.
Just like the hipo dual point that a saac member bought a few weeks.
Question;\
both have there original boxes
one set has auto lite stamped and spelled out >>> Red box >> DP-3 Faa 12171-A
another set has Ford inside the oval which is stamped. >>>> Blue box >>> B7A-12171- C
The autolite, what year Shelby or Cobra would they be appropriate for <<< 66-67 ?
The Ford oval set, again Shelby or Cobra years ? >>>> Could they be early 63 thru early 65 built cars ?
Do these interchange with big blocks dual points.?
It's been a few decades, but if memory serves, they sure looked a lot a like?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Next, quite an oddity, and maybe a break point in advertising?
The Blue ford box, has the fomoco in big block letters, and then off to the side, it has the ford script in the logo.
No matter how trivial, >>> this must have been a break point <<< when Ford was shifting to the blurred ford gt on the red box ?
I can further this , I went back and looked at some 1950's thru early 1960's, they are boxed with red detail, and
had the large fomoco block letter's, no ford script in a oval though
Is this close to correct timelines >> for Fords logo's in those era's ?
I am stopping here, as I just thought of Rotunda with the star, they squeezed in between the ones above ?
Which script would be appropriate for a oct build 67 350 ?
Always finding more little high point treasures in Coppers decades long collection.
Thanks guys,
John
John ,
The AUTOLITE stamped points were introduced during '66 and ran through some time in '71 before the Motorcraft stamped versions. Early versions had a dark gray "paper" insulator material and later ones had a white nylon insulator that was prone to cracking and falling apart over time.
I have several sets of the transistorized points ( also called "low inertia") that have the oval and FoMoCo inside the oval. these came from SAI through the late Ray Wolfe (rip) . I have also seen "standard production" points with the ''block'' FoMoCo stamped on them. All of those have the gray paper insulator. These would all be pre '66 with the paper insulator. FAA was the early prefix for them. The dual stamped one is certainly an oddity. Others may have more input on the subject and maybe pictures
John,
The DP-3 points are 6-cylinder. They look just like the DP-6 HiPo dual points but are a flipped "mirror image". Not sure about the B7A-12171-C's but saw one reference they are for the supercharged 1957 312.
Dave
S2MS, Gt 350Hr
You know, I compared that set to a C7 dual point hipo distr I have here,
Thank you Dave, you are spot on >> when compared side to side>>> the Autolite's are reversed and mirror image, glad I found that out.
But, The ford script points are identical to the hipo's , and they have the grayish paper cam rider.
So, the B7 points with the ford script in the oval, would be concours correct for a late oct build 67 gt 350 ?
I want to at least hold onto a set before selling advertising them here at saac.
John
John ,
If the distributor housing is an Autolite , it certainly would have Autolite points . "I" feel that even if the distributor housing says FoMoCo , a '67 GT350 would have had Autolite points with the gray paper insulator because the Autolite Division ( that made the distributors) would have the fastest turn over of points compared to a "dealers" shelf. Bob or Jeff would certainly know what is "acceptable" without a point deduction.
Randy
Randy,
As mentioned above, trying to figure things out >> In fact, this was a time when Ford was bouncing all over with company brand names.
The 67 Hipo / Shelby dual point I referenced , is a FoMoCo >> it is a C 7 early unit.
Unless Bob or Jeff have any other idea's for concours judgement, , I am going to keep a set of the Ford script points and think of them as correct?
Thanks guys,
John
Quote from: gt350hr on June 05, 2019, 11:50:52 AM
SNIP...
Bob or Jeff would certainly know what is "acceptable" without a point deduction.
Randy
Are you referring to the points? Or did I misunderstand and you are referring to the Autolite v. FoMoCo distributor?
John,
Nobody will know but you. They don't look under the cap. ;)
Paul
Quote from: Harris Speedster on June 05, 2019, 12:36:59 PM
Randy,
As mentioned above, trying to figure things out >> In fact, this was a time when Ford was bouncing all over with company brand names.
The 67 Hipo / Shelby dual point I referenced , is a FoMoCo >> it is a C 7 early unit.
Unless Bob or Jeff have any other idea's for concours judgement, , I am going to keep a set of the Ford script points and think of them as correct?
Thanks guys,
John
If as it applies to concours judged venues none take the caps off to look inside/underneath regardless of venue or class. If for your own knowledge then the 65,66,and early 67 typically took the earlier type and the later 67 the Autolite .
Quote from: Bossbill on June 05, 2019, 12:58:06 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on June 05, 2019, 11:50:52 AM
SNIP...
Bob or Jeff would certainly know what is "acceptable" without a point deduction.
Randy
Are you referring to the points? Or did I misunderstand and you are referring to the Autolite v. FoMoCo distributor?
Points . Yes it was a poor attempt at a play on words LOL See why I always refer to "the judge" . "I" wasn't sure if caps were lifted and Bob confirmed they weren't.
Randy
In concours judging the rule of thumb is - Minimal touching in concours judging = minimal chance of breaking or otherwise damaging something. Minimal drama = ;D concours judge .
Boss bill,
Bill >> Referring to the points.
Kr conv,
Paul
As a pun, points being about the points, >> a picture of the points , under the cap, would / might be worth a 1000 words for top awards.
If not, why even worry about dates, part numbers on the inside of wheels, oil galleries etc. ???????
MODIFIED>> just left and read new topics, ironically this was just posted >>> 65 66 GT350 Assembly line Looking Maroon Air Filters
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No lecture, just thoughts on high points, no argument intended;
Senior Judging at Invitationals >> in which you submit your car for scrutiny before getting an Invitation, yes, it counts for high points.
Some Judge for as much as 1000 points. Competition is stiff for world top awards.
A class invitational " Common " can be for Italian built cars, German cars, English built cars etc, not the same as a Invitational for the best of best of all models from around the world
I have had rude awakenings regarding this, as the Speedster will be in the toughest classes being scrutinized for literally everything.
Bob, Minimal touching, I agree, but a picture is worth a thousand words for the ultimate points.
BTW, shouldn't a real early 67 Shelby have a hipo FoMoCo distr ?
Respectfully submitted,
John
Quote from: Harris Speedster on June 06, 2019, 08:52:29 AM
Boss bill,
Bill >> Referring to the points.
Kr conv,
Paul
As a pun, points being about the points, >> a picture of the points , under the cap, would / might be worth a 1000 words for top awards.
If not, why even worry about dates, part numbers on the inside of wheels, oil galleries etc. ???????
MODIFIED>> just left and read new topics, ironically this was just posted >>> 65 66 GT350 Assembly line Looking Maroon Air Filters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No lecture, just thoughts on high points, no argument intended;
Senior Judging at Invitationals >> in which you submit your car for scrutiny before getting an Invitation, yes, it counts for high points.
Some Judge for as much as 1000 points. Competition is stiff for world top awards.
A class invitational " Common " can be for Italian built cars, German cars, English built cars etc, not the same as a Invitational for the best of best of all models from around the world
I have had rude awakenings regarding this, as the Speedster will be in the toughest classes being scrutinized for literally everything.
Bob, Minimal touching, I agree, but a picture is worth a thousand words for the ultimate points.
BTW, shouldn't a real early 67 Shelby have a hipo FoMoCo distr ?
Respectfully submitted,
John
John , it can be confusing on knowing and understanding the qualifications for the different classes at various Mustang/Shelby venues let alone the multitude of multi make concours venues. Taking SAAC for instance the class that has to do with correct part numbers and date codes is the premiere class /DIV I . In the other class concours/DIV II the part has to look correct but date codes and casting ,engineering or part numbers are not required. I think many people building cars to the DIV II standard may choose to occasional try for the dated correct engineering number parts as icing on the cake so to speak. Not required but desired. ;) As far as oil galleries I remember when there was uproar on the show field when we started using flash lights which were looked at as "unfair" .I can only imagine the cry's of foul if we instituted borascopes to check the internals of a engine for correctness. The early 67's used FOMOCO marked dist and later 67 Autolite.
Gad, I thought I was the pun master (not here -- but in real life) so I can't believe I missed the "point".
I just got in my replacement dual point plate for my FoMoCo distributor. Someone has converted to Petronics (and their plate) and lost the original plate. A pointless exercise in my book.
It came with Niehoff FF-4HV points and condenser, so this topic drew my interest.
I try, where I can, to use real FoMoCo parts in my build so the Niehoffs may have to go.
Guys,
This " point " turned into a very entertaining and knowledgeable topic.
I was told by a long term Senior Judge, to do just that, take pictures of items that are " original " to the build dates and times of the cars that you will not be able to see when asembled.
Date codes, part numbers, correct scripts and part names>> autolite, rotunda, FoMoCo, motorcraft etc >> are just those points.
I truly thank you guys for the input, and whomever buys one of the sets of points from Coopers collection, please take a picture of them before putting the cap on, so "if" a class win boils down to obscure points, you win !!!!!!!
Bob, fomoco is what came with the early 67, thank you as always,
Smile guys, love being a long time member of the club !!!!!!!!!!!!
Respectfully submitted,
John
Quote from: Harris Speedster on June 07, 2019, 08:47:28 AM
I was told by a long term Senior Judge, to do just that, take pictures of items that are " original " to the build dates and times of the cars that you will not be able to see when asembled.
Date codes, part numbers, correct scripts and part names>> autolite, rotunda, FoMoCo, motorcraft etc >> are just those points.
In the judging organizations I've been involved in, if we can't see it, we don't judge it.
Pictures would not be useful as there's no way to validate those pictures are of the same car being judged.
CharlesTurner,
I think Bob touched upon this.
Organizations and Judges all have their own criteria.
I have always found it Crazy that common items shared with Mustang would be different then Saac points judging for the same, but that is the point in basics.
Amelia, Pebble, Greenwich and more, everything counts.
Pedigree, accuracy and Provenance reign supreme
So >>>> I respectfully agree to disagree.
John
Cmon John ; out of sight out of mind. its only your satisfaction that you have original points. Theres no way any concours event would spend time opening up a dist to check the guts. Ive watched them judge at PB AI and the quail concours and they dont do stuff like that.
Agree that everything counts and while the judges will give a pass on items we can't see in concours/thoroughbred, I personally would still install FoMoCo points and things that couldn't be seen. For some, it's not about the points, it's about making the car the best it can be.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on June 07, 2019, 10:33:29 AM
In the judging organizations I've been involved in, if we can't see it, we don't judge it.
Pictures would not be useful as there's no way to validate those pictures are of the same car being judged.
When I was taking down judge's comments as a scribe at the last SAAC convention I was lead to believe that owners should have photos to document things the judges can't see.
I've been scrupulous about documenting things like the paint colors on my original leaf springs so that I can replace those markings to "as originally made."
I understand the issue with bogus documentation, but how can I prove what I've done without including my vin tag in every photo -- which would also not prove it's my car that I'm photographing?
Bill, It's recommended to document original markings & colors on your car especially if they are not "typical". If judges question originality you have pictures. During judges introduction to car owner the lead judge will ask the owner if there is anything not typical about the car that should be discussed before judging begins. Undercarriage primer color is a good example.
If a judge cannot see something (lack of Lubriplate on original FoMoCo brake shoes ) the owner is not required to have pictures of the parts not visible during judging. Many owners/restorers do take pictures of everything, however not required in SAAC or MCA judging for parts not visible during judging.
And as always try (yes in some venues it can be difficult to impossible given the way things are done) and understand the requirements.
Have seen where 6 items (kept secret until needed) were used to break ties or determine Best of the Best or Best of Show. Recall points being one of them one year. DO your best, be prepared, make your choices and live with them.
Big Jim,
To my best knowledge, paperwork which is turned in with applications, covers everything from nuts, bolts, cloth wire, to clips.
If a person has went all out, the pictures taken of the points, count as being more original than one with points from autozone.
If somebody would protest, guess a person would just loosen the clamps if the picture is not sufficient evidence..
Not arguing big Jim,
For the most part, there is an adage, yea with the most money to buy 100% correct original goodies>>> wins hands down.
That is SAAC's guidelines for the best of the best, isn't it ?
Why would a person even consider paying $2000. for a carb, which has numbers you can not see ???????
It is all relevant, and with Senior Judges dealing with 18 countries last year at Pebble, some being world leaders, yep, pissing rights reign supreme and who has the biggest wallet, they all want the same thing, top Honors.
They have one chance at Pebble, you wait 5 years to submit again. Exception, same owner can strip it and start all over again, or if t found a new owner they can submit the car for years, and sometimes never get an Invitation.
Bossbill, you are 100% right, keep the docs, and continue to keep documentation.
I have done the same with the Speedster and many other cars I have had.
J Speegle, spot on , thanks
Seems the portfolio adds value when its sold too ?
BIG Jim you made me smile as always, they are out of Coopers collection, and yeah it is fun to bring forth such oddities, >>> but at the same time, with two car's being perfect and equal, who would win with documentation displayed, in all out competition ?
Geez, now I am afraid to bring out the Ford Script condenser >> smile guys.
Anybody going to the Cincinnati Concours d'Elegance this weekend? Cooper will be there with the Cobra Coupe of Miata's, one of only two original factory backed cars ever built. Yes, turned in obscure facts when submitting for an Invitation.
It sat center stage last year up by an Invitational by Chicago, shred the stage with a factory werks 906 Porsche , and two other factory manufacturers werks cars.
Shooting for Special Invitation next year at Amelia for all out factory team werks car competition..
Respectfully submitted,,
John
Quote from: CharlesTurner on June 07, 2019, 11:20:45 AM
Agree that everything counts and while the judges will give a pass on items we can't see in concours/thoroughbred, I personally would still install FoMoCo points and things that couldn't be seen. For some, it's not about the points, it's about making the car the best it can be.
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That is being in the spirit of true competition and making it the best it can be !!!
Thank you Charles, I agree with your philosophy.
Best regards,
John
Finding original tune up parts that "should have been used up " long ago is always pleasant.
Are these the "gray paper" version and would be correct for my Mar 2 car?
"In my personal experience" Yes.
That's good, since I just bought a pair with the Autolite stamping!
Out of sight, not out of mind.
Quote from: Bossbill on June 10, 2019, 01:16:15 PM
Are these the "gray paper" version and would be correct for my Mar 2 car?
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Bill,
Are they Ford script ?
Are they for an early 67 or ?
Thanks
John
Quote from: gt350hr on June 05, 2019, 11:50:52 AM
John ,
If the distributor housing is an Autolite , it certainly would have Autolite points . "I" feel that even if the distributor housing says FoMoCo , a '67 GT350 would have had Autolite points with the gray paper insulator because the Autolite Division ( that made the distributors) would have the fastest turn over of points compared to a "dealers" shelf. Bob or Jeff would certainly know what is "acceptable" without a point deduction.
Randy
Randy had a really good answer, so I'll quote him.
The gray versions I bought say AUTOLITE on the pivot end.
There is no point deduction for any breaker points since concours judges don't look inside of assemblies. They don't verify you have a tomahawk inside your engine or if your toploader has been converted to Jerico internals.
On my car any parts that should be natural are restored that way. So far I have not painted anything that left the assembly line as bare with a faux paint.
This is a tough road as you can't hide repairs behind paint, so you end up having to restore to a much higher level.
That's why the car deserves things like AUTOLITE points.
Late car, so a late set of points, that makes sense.
Respectfully submitted,
John
Pre '66 ( before AUTOLITE ) the FoMoCo version for performance use is FDS 12171 A
Just thought I would add this option.....
Some 25 years ago I bought a bunch of Fomoco and Autolite points from a dealership going out of business. Never used them because I later installed a Petronix and forgot about them.
Now, looking over my points and since they are not boxed, how do you tell the difference from a DP-3, DP-6 or DP-12?
DP-3 and DP-6 look the same except are "mirror images" (reverse) of each other. DP-12 have a curved base.
Not Ford points but the pic below shows the differences. DP-5 look exactly like DP-6 but have slightly lower spring tension.
Many thanks for your photos and explanation!