Looking for advise on what could be causes and fixes to running hot/overheating. Just finishing up last details and starting to drive 6S1164 after restoring it and have run into a problem. The car is running hot when I drive it. Takes about five to ten minutes of driving around and engine temp on the gauge has the needle running at the middle to far right of the "M" and up towards the "P". When shot with a heat gun reads about 200 on the water pump and around 210 on the front of the heads. When I stop and shut car off pushes a little coolant out, about half a cup or so. The engine has been completely rebuilt to stock specs, has a 160 degree thermostat, has original radiator that had to be re-cored, along with the heater core, correct hi-po water pump and original aluminum 4 blade fan and re-pop fan shroud. It also has an original rebuilt C6ZF-F flat top autolite carburetor. Timing is actually set 2 degrees retarded for stock specs and running a pertronix electronic ignition. I am running Evans Waterless Coolant.
If anyone has any advise it will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Jason
Here are a couple shots of the engine compartment
Nice looking engine compartment.
Checked for a vacuum leak?
Those temps don't really sound very hot to me. Unless it was a bone cold day outside when you checked them. But I have no experience with waterless coolant, so I can't comment on that part.
There are some very knowledgeable guys on here who will tell you that a 160 degree stat is too low. 180-190 seems to be more the preferred range.
What happens if you bump up the timing by 2 degrees or so? Not sure that retarded initial timing is what you want...depending on how your camshaft was degreed-in, of course.
I've always felt that retarded timing ads heat: I timed mine by 36 degrees overall at full advance and all in by 2500 rpm by adjusting springs on the mechanical advance ; mine runs cool ! Some small block fords can run hot if their coolant/water runs through the block too fast ; just a reminder " coolant or anti-freeze does not cool your block; only raises your boiling point! Let's see what other comments you get on a 160 thermostat as well? What's the radiator cap lbs?
Also check your mechanical advance mine has been known to dry up and get " sticky or slow " ! So runs retarded at rpms just cruising down the road ! Light lubricant down the tube where you're rotor sits and flip it until loose
I had a similar issue last year with my '68 Mustang GT 302. In my case, ended up being a clogged radiator which was remedied after a thorough flush. A few things come to mind:
-Timing. Small block Fords love timing. I'm at 15 degrees initial, 36 total, all advance in by 2800 rpm. I'm running an MSD Ready-To-Run distributor. My engine was rebuilt with a compression ratio of 9.5:1. I've never had an issue with detonation using 93 octane fuel.
-Check carburetor and make sure you're not running lean. Always safer to be a little rich if anything, but a lean condition could certainly lead to higher temps
-I used to run a 160 thermostat. Switched to a 180 when I flushed the radiator. Engine warms up faster now and the 180 thermostat has no effect on the final running temperature of the engine
-I'm running a Ford 5-blade fan, no fan shroud, stock radiator, stock radiator cap
Good luck with it!
Terry
Why is 210 hot? Normal operating temperature should be in the 210 to 220 F area.
If you are boiling over at 210 ish then it's likely that you have a bad radiator cap.
These are pressurized systems. It should have a 12 psi cap and boil over with a properly presurized system and 50/50 anti-freeze is around 242.
You need an accurate temp gauge that you can read. At least temporarily install one. I long ago replaced the Ford gauge and put it in archives. You can't accurately diagnose what's going on if you are guessing.
You need to pressure test the entire cooling system and pressure test the cap too to make sure that it can hold 12 psi. 15 wouldn't be a bad idea either.
Many caps are coming out of the box defective. Many radiators are not sealing properly at the cap mating surface.
If you are boiling over at just over 212 then your system isn't holding pressure.
Not only do you WANT the system to run at 220, you want the oil temp over 212 to cook out the moisture in it. If you don't, you're going to get excessive engine wear and the engine will not seal the piston rings correctly. That's also a loss of horsepower.
Cap should be a 13 lb. one. If you are filling radiator all the way to the top, you are going go have a little out the overflow when you shut it off. In my opinion, you should leave the coolant level down 1/2 to 3/4 inches down in radiator. Ron
A few things I would check:
1.) Temperature sending unit: The resistance is supposed to change with temperature and many after market units (made in China) are off the mark which can be why your gauge appears to read hotter than reality. A few years ago I found that Autozone sells units engineered in Wisconsin by Wells Vehicle Electronics which include engineering specs for resistance. (Looks like mfg is in Mexico) The large hole (TU25) for 66 calls for a range of 176 - 24 ohms between 100 and 220 degrees. https://wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/TU25C.pdf
Or https://wvebrand.com/part-detail/sales_drawings/TU22D.pdf
I had a bad one that tested 11 ohms @ 180 and when replaced read 35 ohms @ 180 and the gauge problem went away. I tested by boiling a pot of water with an ohm meter attached to unit and an IR thermometer and observed the change in ohms as things heated up.
Autozone sells them under the Duralast brand as TU25. They used to sell the smaller hole units for earlier Cobra intakes as TU22 but those seem to be out of stock.
2.) consider pouring in a bottle of Water Wetter which is supposed to help with cooling
3.) As far as puking up water, if you do a pressure check and the cap is good, I would double check the torque on your heads to make sure that isn't causing pressure in the system.
4.) I agree with others on the 160 thermostat and would at a minimum put in a 180
5.) Is the block bored 0.30, 0.40, 0.60?
6.) does the lower radiator hose have the spring in it to prevent collapse?
+1 to #1.
#3 - Coolant level should be about 1" below the bottom of the neck. Much more, and it'll puke out. It needs room for expansion.
Quote from: sg66 on July 14, 2019, 02:16:09 PM
A few things I would check:
1.) Temperature sending unit: The resistance is supposed to change with temperature and many after market units (made in China) are off the mark which can be why your gauge appears to read hotter than reality. A few years ago I found that Autozone sells units made in Wisconsin by Wells Vehicle Electronics which include engineering specs for resistance. The large hole (TU25) for 66 calls for a range of 176 - 24 ohms between 100 and 220 degrees. https://wellsve.com/custom_searches/pdf/sales_drawings/TU25C.pdf
I had a bad one that tested 11 ohms @ 180 and when replaced read 35 ohms @ 180 and the gauge problem went away. I tested by boiling a pot of water with an ohm meter attached to unit and an IR thermometer and observed the change in ohms as things heated up.
Autozone sells them under the Duralast brand as TU25. They used to sell the smaller hole units for earlier Cobra intakes as TU22 but those seem to be out of stock.
2.) consider pouring in a bottle of Water Wetter which is supposed to help with cooling
3.) As far as puking up water, if you do a pressure check and the cap is good, I would double check the torque on your heads to make sure that isn't causing pressure in the system.
4.) I agree with others on the 160 thermostat and would at a minimum put in a 180
5.) Is the block bored 0.30, 0.40, 0.60?
6.) does the lower radiator hose have the spring in it to prevent collapse?
The OP said that he is using the Evans waterless system. I do not think the Water Wetter product is compatible with the Evans "waterless" system . The Waterwetter product will most likely contaminate the Evans system . It may make things worse. I hope that the OP followed the strict protocol of getting rid of all water before adding the Evans. That could be a issue also. I had a friends shop who used the Evans Product and although it worked it was not as dramatic as hoped. The product is expensive for a customer and also the labor time to install when you go through all of the protocol needed to install as directed. He discontinued using it for those reasons.
As shelbyDoug mentioned, install a true mechanical temperature gauge, even temporarily. The heat gun is nowhere as accurate as a good mechanical AutoMeter gauge.
Why in heavens name are you using a 160 thermostat. Millions of 1960's era Fords shipped with the 190-192 series thermostat and they ran beautifully when new, and if assembled correctly, will still run perfectically with the 190 thermostat.
The 160 thermostat is the worst thing you can put in a 289, especially a fresh motor. On short trips the motor oil will not reach operational temperatures, and the water condensate in the oil WILL form a very nice sludge, unless the oil gets hot enough to burn it off.
I agree with the assessment that a true 210 - 220 F reading taken by a real gauge is not too hot. Do you have a shop manual ? Reading it will tell you the stock 190 series thermostat doesn't even fully open until 212 plus.
More facts are needed before anyone can help with this issue. Starting with a legitimate temperature reading
Z
PS. The fine print on the Evans website wil tell you to expect your engine to run somewhat hotter with their product. For automotive use, I discourage the use of Evans. If your jet engine hydraulics run too hot then go ahead and use it. But in a vintage car, no.
Quote from: zray on July 14, 2019, 09:03:47 PM
As shelbyDoug mentioned, install a true mechanical temperature gauge, even temporarily. The heat gun is nowhere as accurate as a good mechanical AutoMeter gauge.
Why in heavens name are you using a 160 thermostat. Millions of 1960's era Fords shipped with the 190-192 series thermostat and they ran beautifully when new, and if assembled correctly, will still run perfectically with the 190 thermostat.
The 160 thermostat is the worst thing you can put in a 289, especially a fresh motor. On short trips the motor oil will not reach operational temperatures, and the water condensate in the oil WILL form a very nice sludge, unless the oil gets hot enough to burn it off.
I agree with the assessment that a true 210 - 220 F reading taken by a real gauge is not too hot. Do you have a shop manual ? Reading it will tell you the stock 190 series thermostat doesn't even fully open until 212 plus.
More facts are needed before anyone can help with this issue. Starting with a legitimate temperature reading
Z
PS. The fine print on the Evans website wil tell you to expect your engine to run somewhat hotter with their product. For automotive use, I discourage the use of Evans. If your jet engine hydraulics run too hot then go ahead and use it. But in a vintage car, no.
Strange that when 190 degree thermostats are used on some older hotter running overbored engines they boil over even with good caps. When the same engines had the thermostats switched out with the 160 degree they still ran in the 190 - 200 degree range but didn't go to far past and boil over. Too many instances like that to dismiss it completely. This is not the case with every engine but I think that enough are positively effected by the thermostat switch out not make a blanket statement like never ever use a 160 degree etc.
Bob, this isn't the first time we are at odds with each other over the 160 degree thermostat use, and I imagine it won't be the last time. Our positions are very unlikely to ever be modified by what the other guy is saying.
So lets shake hands, and come out swingin'
with limited running time, like in a parade, yes a 160 might help.
But in 99.99% of all cases, once the thermostat has fully opened, the engine doesn't care if it's a 160 or a 190. Overheating at that point has nothing to do with the thermostat, (and you know it).
Thermostats only set the low point of an engine temperature, never the high point. That's been true since the first one was used, long before either of us was around to observe the results.
Z.
Can the OP please let us know if the engine has been over-bored...and if so, by how much?
A 0.060 over 289 (and a lot of other engines) will tend to run hot, IMO. Early Mustangs weren't exactly known for having lots of thermal reserve in their cooling systems, although YES millions of early Mustangs have run just fine with all the stock equipment. But now we have here a rebuilt engine with unknown specs, an alternate coolant, and possibly other things that might be contributing to the "running hot" issue. (I'm still suspecting a vacuum leak and/or the retarded timing...OR the simplest answer in that there's nothing wrong at all. Once the coolant level and any air pockets in the system have been worked out, it may operate properly.)
I agree with Doug and others who have said that 200-210 is not hot. You need a lengthy 212-degree heat to burn off condensation. That's why, long ago, many little old lady cars had tons of gunk in the crankcase despite having only a few thousand miles on the engine. They weren't driven long enough to get "good and hot" and thus that became a great contributor to the sludge. Fortunately, oils have improved markedly over the decades, but it still is a good idea to not over-cool the engine so far so that it never gets up to "proper" operating temp.
As for the thermostat temp, I tend to agree with running a 180-190 t-stat. But I have also owned cars that ran hot and I removed the t-stat completely. Some still ran hot, while others ran a bit cooler. In those that ran cooler, it probably was a malfunctioning t-stat in the first place, so removing it helped the coolant flow. The primary purpose of the t-stat is to allow the engine to get up to operating temp. Most notably in cold weather. Once the t-stat opens completely, it's up to the rest of the cooling system to do its job.
Bob has seen/judged/scrutinized more Mustangs than I have, so I will defer to him as to a (relatively rare) situation where a lower temp t-stat actually does reduce overall engine temps.
Quote from: zray on July 14, 2019, 11:10:06 PM
Bob, this isn't the first time we are at odds with each other over the 160 degree thermostat use, and I imagine it won't be the last time. Our positions are very unlikely to ever be modified by what the other guy is saying.
So lets shake hands, and come out swingin'
with limited running time, like in a parade, yes a 160 might help.
But in 99.99% of all cases, once the thermostat has fully opened, the engine doesn't care if it's a 160 or a 190. Overheating at that point has nothing to do with the thermostat, (and you know it).
Thermostats only set the low point of an engine temperature, never the high point. That's been true since the first one was used, long before either of us was around to observe the results.
Z.
Well you have moved from never ever to conceding that it works in some situations. That is the point I was trying to make by suggesting it wasn't prudent to eliminate that switch all together as a possible remedy in some cases (not all). I rest my case your honor. ;) ;D
Suggestion. Take off the radiator cap and look into the tank to be sure the baffle is still there. If someone worked on that radiator and left the baffle out it will cause the engine to run hotter than normal.
To give you some numbers to compare with, I used a temp gun to check the engine in my 6S087 a while back. Here are the results after driving around for 30 minutes, then parking in driveway, opening hood & checking temps with a Fluke temp gun with engine still running.
Outside temp = 73F
Thermostat housing = 185F
Radiator top tank = 185F
Radiator bottom tank = 178F
Driver's head (front) = 188F
Passenger's head (front) = 187F
The engine has been rebuilt with mild bore & stroke.
The gauge needle was pointing at the P in TEMP on that particular day. I later learned the voltage regulator for the instrument panel was faulty. After replacing that regulator the needle now points at the M (or lower) most of the time.
Steve
OK. So now when someone asks you what your engine runs at you can tell them M. ;)
The only worse engine temp monitoring I've seen is in a Pantera. First of all the sender doesn't even match the gauge, next the normal operating temp hot is over 220F and the gauge only goes to 230 so people freak out when they see the gauge getting pegged.
Incidentally, 185-187 is way to cool. You're gonna' have sludge city.
The Mustang system tends to have air pockets simply because it doesn't use an overflow tank and as a result you can't fill the radiator to the top so it can make the gauge erratic in that it absolutely does rise and fall 10 degrees while in use. That's absolutely true.
I don't see where a 160 thermostat lowers the operating temp of the system. It just opens the system operation earlier. In a hot climate with 15-20 minute drives you will see the difference.
Take it on the road and drive across Texas in the summer and you won't see any difference.
If you want comfort, have a shop make up a full three core radiator with the stock tanks. Just keep it away from Gaines eyes in Concourse judging. You can't have both a happy life and a happy Concourse Judge. Those things are mutually exclusive. ;D
Quote from: Bob Gaines on July 14, 2019, 11:31:21 PM
"..........Well you have moved from never ever to conceding that it works in some situations. That is the point I was trying to make by suggesting it wasn't prudent to eliminate that switch all together as a possible remedy in some cases (not all). I rest my case your honor. ;) ;D
I do love a parade.
Z
Quote from: Bob Gaines on July 14, 2019, 11:31:21 PM
Quote from: zray on July 14, 2019, 11:10:06 PM
Bob, this isn't the first time we are at odds with each other over the 160 degree thermostat use, and I imagine it won't be the last time. Our positions are very unlikely to ever be modified by what the other guy is saying.
So lets shake hands, and come out swingin'
with limited running time, like in a parade, yes a 160 might help.
But in 99.99% of all cases, once the thermostat has fully opened, the engine doesn't care if it's a 160 or a 190. Overheating at that point has nothing to do with the thermostat, (and you know it).
Thermostats only set the low point of an engine temperature, never the high point. That's been true since the first one was used, long before either of us was around to observe the results.
Z.
Well you have moved from never ever to conceding that it works in some situations. That is the point I was trying to make by suggesting it wasn't prudent to eliminate that switch all together as a possible remedy in some cases (not all). I rest my case your honor. ;) ;D
Zray, that isn't quite right. What a 190 deg thermostat does is allow the fluid to stay in the radiator longer which cools through convection due to the forced air. Now before you doubt and come out swinging :-) think about what I am saying, the coolant is cooled and isn't free-flowing into the engine block because the thermostat is a barrier and the coolant is forced via the increased pressure into the engine. In your theory that once the thermostat is opened, it doesn't matter would be true if the thermostat opened to the diameter of the inlet or the hose, but it doesn't. A 190 deg thermostat will always allow an engine to operate cooler which is why I am sure FORD spent many $ evaluating it in the 60's.
Greg
Quote from: Greg on July 15, 2019, 09:21:49 AM
Zray, that isn't quite right. What a 190 deg thermostat does is allow the fluid to stay in the radiator longer which cools through convection due to the forced air. Now before you doubt and come out swinging :-) think about what I am saying, the coolant is cooled and isn't free-flowing into the engine block because the thermostat is a barrier and the coolant is forced via the increased pressure into the engine. In your theory that once the thermostat is opened, it doesn't matter would be true if the thermostat opened to the diameter of the inlet or the hose, but it doesn't. A 190 deg thermostat will always allow an engine to operate cooler which is why I am sure FORD spent many $ evaluating it in the 60's.
Greg
I never said a thermostat opens to the diameter of the hose.
I did say a 160 and a 190, when fully open, have the identical effect on the cooling system, which is, zero. As pointed out already, at the point a thermostat is fully open, it's up to the rest of the cooling system to keep the dad blame thing from overheating.
Not many mechanics today were taught by a mentor, or mentors, as through as mine were, RIP, Uncle Hobart, and Leroy Y.
To diagnose a cooling problem, don't start at the thermostat, or radiator, or water pump. To have a methodical approach, always start where the heat is generated. In our case this will be the cylinder head and cylinder block. Does the head have heat holding deposits, or other issues ? If not, proceed to the engine block. The block is without doubt, the MOST overlooked component of the cooling system. Having a professional flush your engine block always always will cure an overheating issue. Not a home flush either. But a real, take out the freeze plugs and really get the crap out.
Who teaches this anymore ? No one I know.
Z
PS but to the OP's issue. I don't advocate the use of Evans, so I'm not up to speed on diagnosing overheating when Evans is used. No help here.
PPS the only thing a 190 has going for it is that it will get the motor hot enough to burn off sludge making moisture in the oil . That's it. And that's plenty of difference, enough a difference that I'll never put a 160 thermostat bandaid on a car and think I've fixed something.
I don't think anyone suggested "Burping" the system. They tend to get an airpocket around the thermostat area. You can get the air out by elevating the front of the car either by jacks or hill. Warm up the car first so the thermostat is open then try that. Otherwise try all the other suggestions you were given.
I had similar problems, had the rad flushed and checked the thermostat with no luck. I went to a larger mechanical fan, HD water pump, and a fan shroud. No more Issues.
What is the optimum engine coolant temperature for warmed up and running 289HP?
Steve
PPS the only thing a 190 has going for it is that it will get the motor hot enough to burn off sludge making moisture in the oil . That's it. And that's plenty of difference, enough a difference that I'll never put a 160 thermostat bandaid on a car and think I've fixed something.
[/quote]
Zray, we do agree on a few points but you aren't 100% complete. I agree that the higher operating temperature promotes moisture evaporation in the oil, but the 190 deg thermostat allows the coolant to be regulated at 190deg so it stays in the radiator longer for better coolant regulation. I also agree that the OP could have a blockage not allowing enough flow which would obviously cause an issue.
Quote from: SFM6S087 on July 15, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
What is the optimum engine coolant temperature for warmed up and running 289HP?
Steve
190-200 degs
Quote from: Dkutz on July 15, 2019, 12:39:22 PM
I don't think anyone suggested "Burping" the system. They tend to get an airpocket around the thermostat area. You can get the air out by elevating the front of the car either by jacks or hill. Warm up the car first so the thermostat is open then try that. Otherwise try all the other suggestions you were given.
And by making sure you use a thermostat with a air bleed hole and orientate it towards the top once installed (just works a little better that way.
Quote from: Greg on July 15, 2019, 03:57:02 PM
Quote from: SFM6S087 on July 15, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
What is the optimum engine coolant temperature for warmed up and running 289HP?
Steve
190-200 degs
The optimum operating temperature of an engine is determined by the oil temperature, not the coolant temperature.
Engine clearances are optimized for that. You need an oil temperature of 210 to 220 F. Whatever the coolant temperature that results in is whatever it winds up at. The actual coolant temp is going to vary during normal operation.
Ultimately you probably do best with a 50/50 mixture although you can get a little better boil over protection with a 75% anti-freeze mix.
When you look at a system that is presurized to 12-13 psi, you need to investigate why. When you look at the data on the coolant chart, boil over at that pressure with 50/50 comes in at around 242.
Anything under that number would be considered normal operating temperature. Simply put, that's how the engineering is on the engine.
289's are not generally a heat producing dynamo. They can create a good deal of anxiety for an operator but by comparison to a 428 in a Mustang chassis they are child's play.
You can't diagnose cooling if you are using a stock Mustang temperature gauge. I went through this 40 years ago. Put gauges in the car that you can read and are accurate.
At one point in the '70s I had a Boss 351, 11.0:1 cr, with Webers in the car. I found that a 70 Mustang 351 4v with A/C had a full 3 core radiator and bolted in. The lower hose nipple needed to be moved to the other side because of a different exit point on the water pump. NBFD.
That engine ran right in the 195-200 degree range water temp. Yes, cool. You really had to beat on it to get the oil temp up even with just a stock pan.
It had the block "boiled out" with the old, now unobtanium EPA banned stuff. Gunk never had a chance.
The old intakes without the rear water crossover are less susceptible to air pockets. The new ones with the rear crossover don't help cooling. Burping a Mustang is easy. You need to stand the Pantera on it's nose to do it without a pressure tester.
Buy a Stant pressure tester kit. You can test the cap and you can pump the air out of the system with it. It's really worth it's weight in gold and will go a long way in helping analyze WTF is going on inside the system.
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 15, 2019, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: Greg on July 15, 2019, 03:57:02 PM
Quote from: SFM6S087 on July 15, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
What is the optimum engine coolant temperature for warmed up and running 289HP?
Steve
190-200 degs
The optimum operating temperature of an engine is determined by the oil temperature, not the coolant temperature.
Engine clearances are optimized for that. You need an oil temperature of 210 to 220 F. Whatever the coolant temperature that results in is whatever it winds up at. The actual coolant temp is going to vary during normal operation.
Ultimately you probably do best with a 50/50 mixture although you can get a little better boil over protection with a 75% anti-freeze mix.
When you look at a system that is presurized to 12-13 psi, you need to investigate why. When you look at the data on the coolant chart, boil over at that pressure with 50/50 comes in at around 242.
Anything under that number would be considered normal operating temperature. Simply put, that's how the engineering is on the engine.
289's are not generally a heat producing dynamo. They can create a good deal of anxiety for an operator but by comparison to a 428 in a Mustang chassis they are child's play.
You can't diagnose cooling if you are using a stock Mustang temperature gauge. I went through this 40 years ago. Put gauges in the car that you can read and are accurate.
At one point in the '70s I had a Boss 351, 11.0:1 cr, with Webers in the car. I found that a 70 Mustang 351 4v with A/C had a full 3 core radiator and bolted in. The lower hose nipple needed to be moved to the other side because of a different exit point on the water pump. NBFD.
That engine ran right in the 195-200 degree range water temp. Yes, cool. You really had to beat on it to get the oil temp up too even with just a stock pan.
It had the block "boiled out" with the old, now unobtanium EPA banned stuff. Gunk never had a chance.
The old intakes without the rear water crossover are less susceptible to air pockets. The new ones with the rear crossover don't help cooling. Burping a Mustang is easy. You need to stand the Pantera on it's nose to do it without a pressure tester.
Buy a Stant pressure tester kit. You can test the cap and you can pump the air out of the system with it. It's really worth it's weight in gold and will go a long way in helping analyze WTF is going on inside the system.
Doug, the water temperature (mixture, flow rate etc...) does regulate the engine temperature which in turn regulates the oil temperature. I also think you are getting into the race engine world with what you have outlined and I agree. For race engines, the oil temperature is the greatest factor. These engines are nowhere near as precise as those which is why Ford didn't put an oil temperature gauge on them.
I also agree with Doug and others who have said the stock Mustang gauge is not very accurate. Especially as old as they are now, and the fact that there aren't any actual numbers on the gauge faces. Oh no, it's on "P" again.
Kind of like some women I've known in my life who've said something like "its broiling hot outside" whether the ambient temperature is 85 or 95 or 105 or...