Can anyone make a suggestion for the best oil I should use on a pretty recent 347 stroker? What weight oil for now (summer) and what should I use for the winter? Synthetic?
Hello Brian,
Depends, are you running a roller or flat tapped cam?
Cheers,
~Earl J
It's a roller cam.
We could go on and on about oils. It depends on what your tolerances are in the engine, roller, hydraulic, solid, what rpms, street, race, stop and go traffic, daily driver, freezing cold environment, burning hot summer temps, what you feel is a budget for high end oils? 95 percent of owners would fit the whats ever on sale at the local auto parts store, most all oils are quality oils today. Kinda like asking the crowd do these pants make me look fat? ;D Each person will have there own answer nobody right or wrong with their answers.
Brian,
A 5-30 or 5-40 should be fine for you engine all around. For synthetic "I" like Mobil 1. I have tried many "designer" oils without any 'magical" differences. On a low ( annual) mileage , weekend only car you can run the oil for a year without any issue, If it's clear enough to see the sick through it , it doesn't need to be changed. I am not a fan of "designer" or "fad" oils. Others WILL have different opinions.
Randy
Brad Penn oil would be my choice
https://penngrade.com/motor-oil-products/
Data sheet:
https://www.amref.com/Media/Files/bp_pb/7126_50_44_58_19_BP_PG1_Multigrade_HP_Oils_PB.pdf
Original Kendall GT1, Brad Penn , now DA lubricants ( green oil) is really good oil. It was recommended to me by Harvey Crane (rip) in the late '60 when I was having bearing issues with another popular brand I was getting for free. I have used it ever since on my personal drag race engines. It is the best IMHO. The reason I mentioned Mobil 1 is Brian asked about a synthetic and Mobil 1 is a good one available everywhere. Brad Penn is a semi synthetic and harder to find.
Randy
I've been running Valvoline VR-1 10W-30 year round in the 347 in my 66 for ~10 years, no issues, send a sample to Blackstone labs at every oil change. My cam is flat tapped, the VR-1 has high zinc levels like the good old days but if you're running a roller cam that probably isn't a concern.
Quote from: gt350hr on July 23, 2019, 10:33:26 AM
I was having bearing issues with another popular brand I was getting for free.
Randy
Randy, you should have known better than to use that Wolf's Head "Reconstituted Oil", you cheapo! And then what, you moved "up" to Quacker State, pure Pennsylvania crud(e) with high sulfur and wax content and it's superior sludging capabilities? You know, "the good stuff"; when you would pour a quart diesel fuel in the crankcase and run it before the oil change so the sludge might flow out the drain plug! ::)
Scott.
I do prefer "designer" oil myself.
Joe Gibbs to be exact.
Dinosaur oil for break-in, full synthetic for continued use.
https://www.drivenracingoil.com/
Quote from: pbf777 on July 23, 2019, 01:45:01 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on July 23, 2019, 10:33:26 AM
I was having bearing issues with another popular brand I was getting for free.
Randy
Randy, you should have known better than to use that Wolf's Head "Reconstituted Oil", you cheapo! And then what, you moved "up" to Quacker State, pure Pennsylvania crud(e) with high sulfur and wax content and it's superior sludging capabilities? You know, "the good stuff"; when you would pour a quart diesel fuel in the crankcase and run it before the oil change so the sludge might flow out the drain plug! ::)
Scott.
I don't know who's been letting out my secrets but here is the HONEST truth. As a teenager , I went to many races at LIONS ( rip) drag strip . The nitro dragsters ran an oil called RayLube. It WAS "rerefined" ( read used/filtered) oil ! Being a "dumb" young kid I asked one of the "big names" why. His reply was "It's good enough for one run and we drain it because it's full of nitro after that one run". At 10 cents a quart ( 1963-64 money) it made racing affordable. Yes I did run it at various times in "beaters" after I got my license a couple years later. We did allot of dumb things back then.
Randy
I am absolutely a Kendall fan. In the mid 80's in my Turbo it didn't burn it. When I ran Castol it smoked. Castrol also got thin quick.
I use Penn Grade break. It's straight 30 wt. I run Penn Grade 30WT post. I use Dino in the FE. My other two Turbo vehicles call for 0-40 Mobil 1.
I run the O-40 during the cooler months and 10-40 warmer times of the year.
-Keith
Quote from: gt350hr on July 23, 2019, 04:47:30 PM
Quote from: pbf777 on July 23, 2019, 01:45:01 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on July 23, 2019, 10:33:26 AM
I was having bearing issues with another popular brand I was getting for free.
Randy
Randy, you should have known better than to use that Wolf's Head "Reconstituted Oil", you cheapo! And then what, you moved "up" to Quacker State, pure Pennsylvania crud(e) with high sulfur and wax content and it's superior sludging capabilities? You know, "the good stuff"; when you would pour a quart diesel fuel in the crankcase and run it before the oil change so the sludge might flow out the drain plug! ::)
Scott.
I don't know who's been letting out my secrets but here is the HONEST truth. As a teenager , I went to many races at LIONS ( rip) drag strip . The nitro dragsters ran an oil called RayLube. It WAS "rerefined" ( read used/filtered) oil ! Being a "dumb" young kid I asked one of the "big names" why. His reply was "It's good enough for one run and we drain it because it's full of nitro after that one run". At 10 cents a quart ( 1963-64 money) it made racing affordable. Yes I did run it at various times in "beaters" after I got my license a couple years later. We did allot of dumb things back then.
Randy
Re-refined oil. I love it! That's what I ran in my first vehicle - a 1960 Ford truck that got 50 miles to the quart. A trip to the beach and back on Saturday was a 2-quart run. Ten cents a quart was enough to pay for something that wasn't going to stay in the engine very long. What memories.
Steve
I have a 347, roller cam with Webers. I run Amsoil synthetic Z-Rod 10W-30 with Archoil AR9100 friction modifier additive. I'm in Jersey so my seasons are slightly limited but that combo suits the car for all my driving.
I made the change to the high Zinc formula after I mushed three flat tappets (that's when I changed to the roller cam too). Both the car and I are happy with this mix.
jim
The ONLY true way of telling if your oil choice is doing a good job for you is at teardown of your engine. if the bearings look like new and the rings are sealed , it's doing a good job. Without a "CSI" , actual engine condition is a guess. My day job has me doing CSI on engine parts as often as once a week. Oil related causes amount to less than 10% of failures by "my" record keeping of failures "I" have looked at. "Oil supply" ( or LACK of) related problems are responsible for about 30% of what I see.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on July 24, 2019, 10:49:24 AM
The ONLY true way of telling if your oil choice is doing a good job for you is at teardown of your engine. if the bearings look like new and the rings are sealed , it's doing a good job. Without a "CSI" , actual engine condition is a guess. My day job has me doing CSI on engine parts as often as once a week. Oil related causes amount to less than 10% of failures by "my" record keeping of failures "I" have looked at. "Oil supply" ( or LACK of) related problems are responsible for about 30% of what I see.
Randy
^^^ so... "some oil" (any brand) seems to give better results that no oil? ::) ??? ;D might be a lesson in there!
Great remark Mark. YES oil IS required in the lubrication system , and YES there are those that despite a full oil pan have starvation issues. Same for people.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on July 24, 2019, 10:49:24 AM
The ONLY true way of telling if your oil choice is doing a good job for you is at teardown of your engine. if the bearings look like new and the rings are sealed , it's doing a good job. Without a "CSI" , actual engine condition is a guess. My day job has me doing CSI on engine parts as often as once a week. Oil related causes amount to less than 10% of failures by "my" record keeping of failures "I" have looked at. "Oil supply" ( or LACK of) related problems are responsible for about 30% of what I see.
Randy
How much is related to fuel (running lean or detonation)?
Add me to the list of Brad-Penn users. I'm running 15W40 in the GT350's and my air-cooled Porsches year-round.
Quote from: 2112 on July 25, 2019, 04:44:04 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on July 24, 2019, 10:49:24 AM
The ONLY true way of telling if your oil choice is doing a good job for you is at teardown of your engine. if the bearings look like new and the rings are sealed , it's doing a good job. Without a "CSI" , actual engine condition is a guess. My day job has me doing CSI on engine parts as often as once a week. Oil related causes amount to less than 10% of failures by "my" record keeping of failures "I" have looked at. "Oil supply" ( or LACK of) related problems are responsible for about 30% of what I see.
Randy
How much is related to fuel (running lean or detonation)?
Mechanical interference is #1 whether valve hitting the piston, dome hitting the head or even the deck of the piston hitting the head. Detonation and rings "butting" are neck and neck for second and I feel the two are related in some cases. Fuel wash is less frequent than that. The important thing is to note changes in appearance and find out why those changes are happening. What "I" refer to as a "happy" engine will have virtually wear free parts despite making big power.
NO I am not even suggesting a well running engine be taken apart "just to inspect it" but if you see a change in oil pressure or operating conditions , you might save a catastrophic failure by doing so. Parts rarely fail for "no reason" or defective part as many assume. Failures usually have causes behind them.
Randy
Quote from: gt350hr on July 26, 2019, 10:46:05 AM
Mechanical interference is #1 whether valve hitting the piston, dome hitting the head or even the deck of the piston hitting the head. Detonation and rings "butting" are neck and neck for second and I feel the two are related in some cases. Fuel wash is less frequent than that. The important thing is to note changes in appearance and find out why those changes are happening. What "I" refer to as a "happy" engine will have virtually wear free parts despite making big power.
NO I am not even suggesting a well running engine be taken apart "just to inspect it" but if you see a change in oil pressure or operating conditions , you might save a catastrophic failure by doing so. Parts rarely fail for "no reason" or defective part as many assume. Failures usually have causes behind them.
Randy
8)
I learned it as the engines had poor tolerances or friction causing catastrophic failure. I am going to start using the term mechanical interference. Thanks Randy, my buddies will look at me with new found enthusiasm. im gonna splain to em that im hialee edjumacated. ;D
Quote from: gt350hr on July 25, 2019, 04:28:00 PM
Great remark Mark. YES oil IS required in the lubrication system , and YES there are those that despite a full oil pan have starvation issues. Same for people.
Randy
I think it's in the scriptures.."Let he that is without oil throw the first rod " well maybe in the automotive scriptures.
One example that has bit a few guys lately is an aftermarket pan manufacturer. That company builds fine products , but has two offerings of "T" pans. The less expensive one is ( and should be) noted as an extra capacity pan. The other more expensive one IS noted as a "road race" pan . Using the econo pan on an open track car HAS led to some oil starvation related issues at our local track , Willow Springs. Turns two and eight specifically. The side Gs capable on those two turns for the length of time in them has allowed aeration with the econo pan . The road race specific pan does not suffer this problem. Unless the driver ( intenet on negotiating these two high speed , challenging turns ), has a low pressure light OR camera focused on the oil pressure gauge ( great idea) the drop to ZERO oil pressure could be missed. With this happening lap after lap , the bearings die a slow death. Plenty of oil , bad situation.
Randy
Not to venture too far away from the original topic of oil, I've been using Joe Gibbs "hot rod oil" 15/50 for the past 10+ years as it was recommended by Morgans (Randy I know you're not a fan of Tim Morgan as Tim can be Tim) but anyway. I use Joe Gibbs as it was readily available.
While on the topic of pans and oil starvation. My question is how far or how much distance should there be between the floor of the oil pan and the pickup screen?
Thanks,
~Earl J
Earl you are right Tim is Tim but he has done WAY more than I have in my lifetime. Driving a top fuel car was never on any list I ever had , bucket or otherwise..
Oil usage ( on ANY forum) is always loaded with opinions. What works for you is what you should be using , THAT is the bottom line. The factors involved in the decision are numerous. Type of use , operation conditions , cooler , clearances , oil pan , pump etc, all have an influence on what is best for you. Gibbs , Lucas, Amzoil, Valvoline , Redline , etc all make good products and have devoted users. Careful choice of the additive package and not "adding to it" is just as important. That is why suggestions are often "all over the map" and no one is really "wrong" when they make their suggestions.
Randy
Okay guys. I have a new big problem. I have a solid lifter 9.5 to 1 CR 427 sideoiler in a 427 Cobra. For lo these many years (20+) I have used Pennzoil 25w50 Racing oil with never a problem.
I am told by every supplier that this oil is no longer being made. I tried the usual 20w50 street car oil then they took all the ZDDP out of it and ruined the cam.
So 1. Does anyone have 6 cases of the good stuff for sale and
2. What is the best replacement?
Kim
Quote from: rkm on September 09, 2019, 12:28:58 PM
Okay guys. I have a new big problem. I have a solid lifter 9.5 to 1 CR 427 sideoiler in a 427 Cobra. For lo these many years (20+) I have used Pennzoil 25w50 Racing oil with never a problem.
I am told by every supplier that this oil is no longer being made. I tried the usual 20w50 street car oil then they took all the ZDDP out of it and ruined the cam.
So 1. Does anyone have 6 cases of the good stuff for sale and
2. What is the best replacement?
Kim
Why not add the ZDDP additive designed to supplement the oils that it has been removed from?
Two oils to consider. Both come in 20W-50 and both have Zinc & Phosphorous.
****************
Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil
10W-30 & 20W-50
For the highlights go here:
https://www.valvoline.com/our-products/motor-oil/vr1-racing-oil
This sheet lists the Zinc & Phosphorous content:
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/18bdee61-0a7e-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/a61538b4-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1
Zinc (ppm) = 1400
Phosphorous (ppm)= 1300
****************
Brad Penn – PennGrade 1 Partial Synthetic Racing
10W-30 & 20W-50
https://penngrade.com/files/7126-7150-7144-7158-7419_PG1_MultiGrade_HP_Oils.pdf
The top of the page list the highlights.
The bottom of the page shows the Zinc & Phosphorous content.
Zinc (mass %) = 0.15
Phosphorous (mass %) = 0.14
Steve
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 09, 2019, 01:27:57 PM
Why not add the ZDDP additive designed to supplement the oils that it has been removed from?
In my own investigations, it has been explained to me more than once by several oil company representatives (and surprisingly, a couple of them actually seemed to know something about oil), that the idea of just adding some foreign formulation to the contents of something already deemed insufficient with intentions of brewing something truly capable, is perhaps for average individual (lacking a chemical engineering degree, facilities and familiar with the particular subject) a somewhat misguided quest, and perhaps only creating a somewhat Frankensteinish result. ;)
Scott.
if you are looking for a motor oil with adequate zinc and phosphorous content look no further than mobil 1
we use the 15w50 with p 1200 and z 1300
want more more zinc and phosphorus try mobils racing oils with p 1750 and z 1850
that is all
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi9o9aUzcbkAhXqp1kKHWxtAlcQFjAAegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw2avttLKX9RKbAC3jHwQpxj
Quote from: pbf777 on September 10, 2019, 10:37:17 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 09, 2019, 01:27:57 PM
Why not add the ZDDP additive designed to supplement the oils that it has been removed from?
In my own investigations, it has been explained to me more than once by several oil company representatives (and surprisingly, a couple of them actually seemed to know something about oil), that the idea of just adding some foreign formulation to the contents of something already deemed insufficient with intentions of brewing something truly capable, is perhaps for average individual (lacking a chemical engineering degree, facilities and familiar with the particular subject) a somewhat misguided quest, and perhaps only creating a somewhat Frankensteinish result. ;)
Scott.
I get my information from engine builders that do the work and have to stand by the results . Those guys are on a "quest " to not have to warranty a flat cam. ;) I suppose it could be argued ether way.
+ 1
totally agree with Mr Gaines the zddp is added insurance and at the end of the journey what's another ten bucks?
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 10, 2019, 12:24:13 PM
Quote from: pbf777 on September 10, 2019, 10:37:17 AM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 09, 2019, 01:27:57 PM
Why not add the ZDDP additive designed to supplement the oils that it has been removed from?
In my own investigations, it has been explained to me more than once by several oil company representatives (and surprisingly, a couple of them actually seemed to know something about oil), that the idea of just adding some foreign formulation to the contents of something already deemed insufficient with intentions of brewing something truly capable, is perhaps for average individual (lacking a chemical engineering degree, facilities and familiar with the particular subject) a somewhat misguided quest, and perhaps only creating a somewhat Frankensteinish result. ;)
Scott.
I get my information from engine builders that do the work and have to stand by the results . Those guys are on a "quest " to not have to warranty a flat cam. ;) I suppose it could be argued ether way.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on September 10, 2019, 12:24:13 PM
Scott.
I get my information from engine builders that do the work and have to stand by the results . Those guys are on a "quest " to not have to warranty a flat cam. ;)
As this is what we do, your right; hence why I have given this topic some consideration, with discussions involving others including those who are in the oil industry, in an attempt to separate what often proves to be the more difficult to acquire truth and fact vs. the more readily available assumptions or fiction.
But, I always say: If it's working for ya, keep on doin' it! ;)
Scott.
I have been using Valvoline VR-1 20w-50 for years.
For your applications...just cruising around...you are probably safe with anything suggested. You do not push your cars harder than what the oil can take.
I read somewhere that there's such a thing as too much ZDDP which can do more harm than good. I think the tipping point might be around 1500ppm - give or take a little. But I can't remember where I saw that.
Steve
Ok guys.Thanks for the input. I like the numbers on the Mobil 1 motorcycle oil but I am worried a full synthetic will find a way to leak in this engine. Is anyone using it in a stock 427 with an aggressive flat tappet cam? Nothing has the 1980 PPM ZZDP specs of the Pennzoil racing oil. I am nervous about mixing up my own oil to bring it up to that specification with say, Brad Penn 20w50.
if your motor has leaks, then it will leak
just because its synthetic oil does not mean it will make your motor leak, the viscosity is the same as conventional oil
Quote from: rkm on September 11, 2019, 06:49:47 AM
Ok guys.Thanks for the input. I like the numbers on the Mobil 1 motorcycle oil but I am worried a full synthetic will find a way to leak in this engine. Is anyone using it in a stock 427 with an aggressive flat tappet cam? Nothing has the 1980 PPM ZZDP specs of the Pennzoil racing oil. I am nervous about mixing up my own oil to bring it up to that specification with say, Brad Penn 20w50.
For those wanting Brad Penn (PennGrade 1) it's available on Amazon Prime for $85-$89 per case.
Quote from: gt350hr on July 23, 2019, 10:33:26 AM
Original Kendall GT1, Brad Penn , now DA lubricants ( green oil) is really good oil. It was recommended to me by Harvey Crane (rip) in the late '60 when I was having bearing issues with another popular brand I was getting for free. I have used it ever since on my personal drag race engines. It is the best IMHO. The reason I mentioned Mobil 1 is Brian asked about a synthetic and Mobil 1 is a good one available everywhere. Brad Penn is a semi synthetic and harder to find.
Randy
at our local retail store mobil 1 15w50 full synthetic 5 quarts $22.88
we usually purchase two cases and a mobil 1 hi performance oil filter under sixty bucks for all
then take the used oil back to the purchase site
Quote from: kjspeed on September 11, 2019, 08:17:32 AM
For those wanting Brad Penn (PennGrade 1) it's available on Amazon Prime for $85-$89 per case.
Quote from: gt350hr on July 23, 2019, 10:33:26 AM
Original Kendall GT1, Brad Penn , now DA lubricants ( green oil) is really good oil. It was recommended to me by Harvey Crane (rip) in the late '60 when I was having bearing issues with another popular brand I was getting for free. I have used it ever since on my personal drag race engines. It is the best IMHO. The reason I mentioned Mobil 1 is Brian asked about a synthetic and Mobil 1 is a good one available everywhere. Brad Penn is a semi synthetic and harder to find.
Randy
Oil choices are rarely agreed on no matter what forum or thread. How does a person "know" the oil is doing a good job without inspecting the engine parts? I understand there are oil analyzing companies out there but few have that done by what I see. There has to be a hundred different oil offerings out there right now , all with there particular "spin" on why they are the best. Tough decisions.
again we only use two types of oil in florida, mobil 1 or hawaiian tropic....just our two cents
Quote from: gt350hr on September 11, 2019, 01:09:51 PM
Oil choices are rarely agreed on no matter what forum or thread. How does a person "know" the oil is doing a good job without inspecting the engine parts? I understand there are oil analyzing companies out there but few have that done by what I see. There has to be a hundred different oil offerings out there right now , all with there particular "spin" on why they are the best. Tough decisions.
Yep. Well stated (as always 8))
These types of threads are always - at least - entertaining if not informative.
Tony - I'm guess that I should only use the Hawaiian Tropic in a roadster? ::)
For example,.. on a "different" auto enthusiast forum, I read as a super-detail-oriented racer really "
went off" on everyone who stated anything without having the oil analysis to back it up :o ???
Mark P the site you referenced wasn't this one was it? There is a fair amount of decent information, a lot of strong opinions and "internet thuggery".
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm
No, my reference was to something on a Turbo Buick forum, I just thought that what I saw sorta reinforced what Randy was saying.
We have had this discussion for decades. Its like arguing which wax or spark plugs are best... They all work good, the market is for the average Joe that's about 99 % of the market covers. Some people feel good about spending 10.00 a spark plug do they really need that... No, but they feel good about their purchase. Do they need the most expensive oils and additives for their cars when all they do is go to the local car show and do a burn out while leaving, no they do not. There are manufacturers that make STUFF for the racer, this is what they are intended for, extreme usage, this does not apply to the common man and machine. Many guys feel like WOW I got my car up to 5000rpm last night I have a real Hot Rod, I need some Joe Gibbs oil to keep my machine running, when what ever is on sale down at the local auto parts store will work just as good. Just My thoughts on driving street cars and race cars for the last 45 years.
Agreed, plus the fact that putting "Racing" on the label means it must be better.
I'm surprised there's not "Racing" toilet paper.
Brad Penn ++1
Different applications "can" require a different oil. My 4cyl Ranger uses 5-30 oil. The viscosity is more critical than the "type" of oil. It obviously is not a race engine and current additive packages do not harm it. The race engine in my Shelby uses Brad Penn 20-50 and is my preferred oil for that engine because of the demands I put on it. This is an example of the extremes. There are plenty of high quality oils out there. In "normal driving" most oils will do a fine job provided the proper additive package is used for the type of camshaft. I am not one who "customizes" oil. I like it to "be" what I need out of the bottle. Racing applications ( IMHO) require serious consideration of the engine clearances , operating conditions and temperatures. Whenever components are taxed to extremes , ALL of the components ( including oil) have to work in concert. Oil pans , coolers , pumps , oil lines are all critical components to long race engine life.
Randy
Randy, are you using a flat tappet cam in your race car or a roller?
Solid roller . 268@.050 w .700 net lift intake 274* exh with.640 lift. 2 Bolt Hi Po block , Eagle crank Carrillo rods , 11.5-1 Vic Jr heads , Ti valves , retainers and locks. Just a "temporary" engine LOL.
Randy
I'm running a 347. Solid lifter Compcams. Canton 8 quart pan. 10 quarts in the system with the oil cooler and lines. Roller lifters really don't need the ZDDP. Solids do.
Mobil1 with two cans of STP Blue for the ZDDP.