Hi,
I've been asking around / going back and forth about doing a T-5 conversion on my 1966 Carryover.
The car has its original transmission, and I have the requisite "popping out of second gear while not accelerating" issue.
I'm kicking around doing a T-5 swap, as I'd love to have the extra gear for highway usage as needed. My previous early 67 GT350 has its original drivetrain as well, and I always dodged getting on highways for fear of winding out the engine or getting passed like I was driving backwards.
My plan would be to remove the original tranny, send it out for repair and save all the original parts.
Please let me know your thoughts / experiences.
Thanks!
I kinda love the 4 speed on a 65-67 with the 3.89 rear.
You don't have to worry about ur 289,....they will rev like that forever.
I drove back from SAAC 33 in my 65 in 85/90 degree heat and had not only a wonderful time but no issues whatsoever. And I was going at a pretty good clip.
Must have been like 300 miles plus.
Oh,...and I drove both ways of course.
5 speed can be fun and I'm not discouraging the swap but don't worry about ur HIPO.
Enjoy
My 2c
The T5 isn't as closely spaced as a T10. The spacing on a T10 is often considered ideal.
What you get with a T5 is a better first gear ratio and an overdrive 5th. I didn't like the gear spacing and went with a Richmond (Doug Nash) 5 speed.
With that transmission first is 3.26 and 5th is 1:1. Gear spacing is modeled after the T10.
What you do to get the effect of an overdrive in 5th is by dropping the rear end final drive. Depending on exactly how hard you want to accelerate out of first you either go to 3.00, 3.25, or 3.50 rear ratios. Of course you could go to a 2.50 or 2.75 rear if you want to cruise like a Lincoln in 5th.
I have 3.50 s in right now. I have a 3.25 ready to go in. With 3.50s you can almost pull the front tires off of the ground by letting out the clutch normally and nailing the throttle. Tire dealers will love you. You will be in there often for replacements.
Generally speaking, production T5s are not very heavy duty transmissions. They are a bit on the light duty side. You will be ok with a 289 but the more cubes that you load on it, the sooner you will break it.
Nothing is foolproof though. The FIRST time I drove the car with the Nash, I twisted the shift cams off. Seems they were two part and "friction welded" together. No one told me until after I broke them. Then EVERYONE SAID, "sure, you didn't know?" Some guys can break anything. I get at least an honorable mention on that list. ;)
You need to use a 1/4" spacer on the original bell with the T5 and you need to finagle the shifter. Other then that it's a bolt on.
The Richmond I used was the Ford 24" length with 31 splines so the driveshaft remained stock.
Depending on which T5 you use you may need to mess with the stock drive shaft.
Incidentally, the Richmond is nice in a GT500 as well.
^^
Douggy laying out the knowledge!
Quote from: Bigfoot on July 28, 2019, 03:45:19 PM
^^
Douggy laying out the knowledge!
I gotta get it out otherwise my head might explode! ;D
Hope what little knowledge I have helps?
I did the swap and haven't looked back since. I kept the orig 3.89's and love it. I can rip through the gears and leave the smoke a rolling. It has handled the torque with no issues .
I did the swap 2 years ago. Just my experience with it. Your car do whatever suits you.
Good luck
Jerome
Thanks to all for the responses! And...wow! Really great information. To me, this type of information exchange is one of the incredible forum benefits.
And, I'm curious - has anyone switched to a T-5 and later regretted / changed back to the original 4-speed?
So far, based on some additional feedback, I'm going to drive the car with the original tranny for a while before I make the decision to swap. Part of me worries about loosing the "feel" of a 4-speed, and not having driven a T-5 before, I'm afraid that I'd make the swap and not know what I'm missing. The good news is that there are quite a few back roads by me that don't require a speed north of 60 MPH.
...however, this is Texas, so it's not uncommon to be on a single lane road in the middle of nowhere with a 70 MPH speed limit! ;D
I have a 66 GT350 and took out the T10 as it was doing the same as yours. I had Orlando Mustang fit a T5WC setup from Modern driveline in the car. I have 3.89 gears. I cannot imagine it being better. Just love it. I also have a T5WC in my in my Shelby Clone. I also sell classic Mustangs here in the UK. To me its the best mod you can do to your car. Requires no cutting/altering of the car and makes is very drivable and hugely lowers the rev's at speed.
And yes you can lite up the tyres at will.
I can probably find the receipt from modern driveline for the conversion if you like.
Also they did struggle with the crossmember supplied by modern driveline and went to another and returned theirs.
Cheers. Peter
I've had a WC 5 Speed in my early '66 for the last 19 years. Put it in when we couldn't keep the 4 speed from popping out of 3rd...I still have the 3.89 rear end, but a lot more power than the original motor, and it's been great in town, on the highway and on the track. Feels close enough to stock in the first four gears, but for highway cruising, it dropped the RPMs from around 3500 to the low 2000s at 70 mph...
Cheers!
OK, Ruben. I think that I may have mentioned this to you.
Here's a great chart to compare RPMs and speed based on which tire size, transmission, and rear gear used.
https://www.engineersedge.com/mechanics_machines/transmission-gear-ratio-calculator.html (https://www.engineersedge.com/mechanics_machines/transmission-gear-ratio-calculator.html)
For comparison, here are the gear ratios for the T10M (close ratio Sebring gears):
1st 2.36
2nd 1.62
3rd 1.20
4th 1.00
...and the World Class T5 currently available from Ford Racing. That is the transmission that you will use if you do the swap.
1st 2.95
2nd 1.94
3rd 1.34
4th 1.00
5th .63
Obviously, there are tons of other variables that are going to effect the "seat of the pants" feel of the various transmissions and rear gears. Things like driving style, camshaft profile, etc.
That said, this gives you a neat little comparison, and you can spend days comparing numbers! You can thank me later! :P Looking forward to the 200 page report!
Good point Brant. I just want to mention that there are other T5 gear ratios available. For instance, the Turbo T-bird transmission has a 4.11 first gear.
I believe that most of the v8 Mustang sourced units are going to have a 3.25 (or in that vicinity) first gear.
Most of the people I know who did the swap used a used Mustang unit from a "junkyard" simply because they are so much less expensive.
The "world Class" mentioned is a higher quality intended for racing abuse that a stock production car normally doesn't see. It would be a great choice.
The standard Ford O.E.M. V8 5.0 Mustang installations first gear gear ratio was 3.35:1; post 1986 (?) the terminology of "World Class" was added due to an engineering redesign of the B.W. for the Ford intended production product, as for using T-5 transmissions for other applications (I4 or V6), this would not be recommended for a number of reasons, so don't get tangled up in these "other possible" ratios.
As already stated, you would want to use the current Ford Racing product, part #M-7003-Z Tremec ("World Class") Super Duty T-5 (previously as a product from B.W. it was known as the "World Class" "Heavy Duty"), both for it's preferable closer ratio spread as compared with the other T-5s, with the 2.95:1 first gear ratio, which is not that far off in the "feel" of the B.W. T10 ratios of 1st: 2.66, 2nd: 2.10, 3rd: 1.60, 4th: 1:1 (1966?); but even if you do have the version with the 2.36 first gear and associated remainder, as listed in a previous post, I would consider the T-5 ratios as superior for typical street use, particularly permitting the preference for less rear gear multiplication. ;)
If you are not wishing to experience the vehicle in it's purest form, as delivered originally, then I would say yes to the conversion to the T-5; as it truly will make your car more enjoyable in overall operation. The only "rub" (well, except cost) is, it seems in some instances (not all) for proper fitment, it has been necessary to "trim" the shifter opening in the transmission tunnel "some"; seems the result of the cars being the sum of not always accurately bent sheet metal; if this is a Shelby, well, greater efforts may be required to avoid this concern. ???
Scott.
modern driveline sells a shifter relocater but I havent needed it nor have the approx 10 T5 fitted cars that have been through the shop had one. Seem to remember it being called a slik shift
Quote from: pbf777 on July 29, 2019, 12:32:54 PM
... it has been necessary to "trim" the shifter opening in the transmission tunnel "some"; ...
Quote from: pmustang on July 29, 2019, 02:43:36 PM
modern driveline sells a shifter relocater but I havent needed it nor have the approx 10 T5 fitted cars that have been through the shop had one. Seem to remember it being called a slik shift
To put a number on the amount of trans-tunnel-clearance trim required, here's one example: I am putting a Modern Driveline T5z (MD P/N MD-552-0251) with their "Quik Stik Shifter" (MD P/N MD-88-421-204-03) into my '65 Fastback. Even with the shifter relocator, I still had 0.3" of interference with the front of the tunnel opening. I trimmed a 0.4" clearance off the front. Note that in the distant past, the frame on my car was reported to have experienced a significant collision with a large, hard object. Subsequently, the frame has been extensively massaged and now measures as correct-to-spec. In addition, all my large aftermarket goodies (rack & pinion, headers, etc.) now (finally) fit as intended. Just one data point. Jim
I have a Ford Toploader four speed with Richmond gears. Came out of Peter Kutt's racing Hertz. No popping out of gear issues ever experienced. Can't bring myself to go to a five speed. I like to hear the revs way too much. But highway driving makes me leery of blowing up the engine however Zray has indicated on at least one prior occasion that this is not a legitimate concern. I have a 5.0 in "the red one" with roller cam and roller rockers. Came out of a late 80s Mustang set up for drag racing. Still not issues yet. Original engine block in my closet (literally). The ladies are or were none the wiser as it was covered over and sat and sits peacefully on the hardwood floor. "Happy little engine" as Bob Ross might have said if he painted engines instead of clouds.
Richard E.
Thanks again to all for the continued input!
One question I have (which may seem a bit loaded) - has anyone done the conversion themselves? If so, how difficult did you find the swap?
I ask, as I'm thinking of doing the work myself, as I can order all the parts I need from (and including) the fly wheel back (including the clutch, and correct length driveshaft), and it would save money and I think (hope!) will be fun to do, as I have a 4 post hydraulic lift in my garage. I do have the correct bell housing (though, I would need a Fox Body (manual) starter), cross member and shift lever from another car that had the T5 swap done previously.
Another question I have: I talked to a shop that was looking to do the work, and they mentioned going with a cable clutch system versus mechanical. Is this required?
Many thanks in advance for your input! :D
You can use your original bellhousing, flywheel, clutch and pressure plate. Just add the adapter plate and bolt it in. My shifter even came up through the factory hole. No cutting required.
It's a simple swap. You need a good floor jack and a transmission floor jack would help a lot. You also need an extra set of hands.
Among other things, you need to turn the engine a little when you slide in the transmission so the the teeth on the input shaft don't get hung up on the clutch disc hub.
You also tend to need to balance the trannie on the jack. You need to get the car up as high as you can on the jackstands for working room.
I've done this on the floor more times then I care to think about ALONE. First time nearly lost two fingers but that was unnecessary.
You can do it. No need for a shop. Even if you have a lift, that just makes it easy to stand up under the car. Same procedure. Just not on your back.
Now wifey needs to check me every so often to make sure I didn't fall asleep under there...again! :o
Quote from: shelbydoug on July 30, 2019, 02:11:09 PM
It's a simple swap. You need a good floor jack and a transmission floor jack would help a lot. You also need an extra set of hands.
Among other things, you need to turn the engine a little when you slide in the transmission so the the teeth on the input shaft don't get hung up on the clutch disc hub.
You also tend to need to balance the trannie on the jack. You need to get the car up as high as you can on the jackstands for working room.
I've done this on the floor more times then I care to think about ALONE. First time nearly lost two fingers but that was unnecessary.
You can do it. No need for a shop. Even if you have a lift, that just makes it easy to stand up under the car. Same procedure. Just not on your back.
Now wifey needs to check me every so often to make sure I didn't fall asleep under there...again! :o
Thanks a ton, Doug! It seems like this is a sweat spot for you. :)
I have a 4-post lift in my garage, so this should make things A LOT easier from an access standpoint. I'll definitely need to rent a transmission jack, though.
One other question for the group: I've heard that there are 3 ways of doing the swap:
- Mechanical linkage (using what's already in the car)
- Cable system (which, it appears, requires a hole being drilled through the firewall - not a fan of this)
- Hydraulic system (which, to me, seems like overkill)
Any comments or thoughts on the differences in the three approaches above? The first option (mechanical) is the most enticing to me, but I'm not sure if I'm leaving a better option on the table.
Thanks!
You will need to drill holes for hydraulic as well. Most of the cables I've seen run up by the power steering pump and circle back down to the bellhousing. I think they look like crap! Modern Driveline has one that appears to go down through the floor and come in from the rear of the car. It looks much nicer, but you probably would need to drill a hole.
If you mean a hydraulic clutch and slave or a hydraulic throw out bearing, I don't use them. For clarity, those are actually two different set ups using a hydraulic reservoir.
I do have a hydraulic throw out bearing in an SVT Contour (son's car) and it is prone to leaking. It's not a good set up since any kind of servicing needs to have the transmission removed. There has been a kit for hydraulic throw out bearings for Panteras for 30 years. Same issues. Don't use them.
The stock mechanical linkage is appropriate for the car. The hydraulic system isn't.
I've heard stories that the hydraulic unit needs a very firm mount and the stock Mustang firewall isn't. It flexes and quickly fatigues and fractures.
I don't know how you would adapt a cable shifter to this application. I don't think that you need to worry so much about fitting in a shift lever.
I've got a stock Mustang lever on a Hurst mechanism. Lots can be done there.
PROBABLY the worst that will happen is that you need to alter the stock shifter boot ring spot welded to the floor. The space alotted to the shift lever opening by Ford is really tight. Something like 3-1/2 x 3-1/2".
I don't know of anyone who has done this swap that said they were sorry and wanted to go back. It's really something how the cars should have been built originally.
Like Nike says, just do it. ;)
Interesting subject
Just to add references for the thread;
http://www.moderndriveline.com/catalog/Ford_Solutions.htm
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/article-index.htm?tag=qa
Quote from: 2112 on July 31, 2019, 01:18:20 PM
Interesting subject
Just to add references for the thread;
http://www.moderndriveline.com/catalog/Ford_Solutions.htm
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/article-index.htm?tag=qa
Thanks Michael! I actually ordered all my stuff through MDL, as I was turned on to them by a good friend. These guys are awesome! They literally supplied EVERYTHING I need, including a custom length driveshaft when the time comes.
I have yet to get / install the parts, and I can tell you that these guys really know what they are doing.
Go with a traditional mechanical clutch linkage and an original bellhousing which requires some minor machining to receive the adapter plate. If you need another bellhousing rather than use your original, I have a spare correct one.
Well, the T5 swap is in progress! Of course, I had to put some gas through her before she went up on the lift. ;) 100 degree temperatures made me look like a strong case of malaria, but the car did great.
It's been great to get under the car and get my hands dirty. The floors are original and you can still see the original salmon colored red oxide - just like on 6S030. And, there is some light undercoating; which I'll remove at a later date.
The original trans is out and I'll be removing the bell housing, clutch and flywheel tonight. I'm hoping to have the area prepped to stab the new tranny tomorrow. We'll see. 👍🏻
I'm guessing I'm not the only one who has done this before...have you ever headed out to the garage to do a few "minor" things around 8pm, only to find yourself slipping into bed at 3:30am the next day? Yeah, that's me! ;D
So, last night's "I'm just going to prep the car for transmission installation the next day" turned into a full-blown installation. Overall, it went extremely well, with the exception of my exhaust; which now is obstructed via the parking brake bar located on the transmission cross member. Oh well, it could have been much worse! However, I was able to change out the fly wheel, clutch, install the bell housing (late model Fox Body; which doesn't require holes to be drilled in my original bell housing), installation of a late model Fox body starter (which truly pains me, as I have a newly restored concours correct starter :'() and new speedo cable (thank the Lord, as I noticed that the sheathing had been pretty flattened in the past due to exhaust heat, but was still working well).
Tomorrow, I'm getting the exhaust sorted out, and then I'm hitting the road - I can't wait!
This post was brought to you by coffee. Coffee - when you don't know when to stop and go to bed. 8)
Funny how that works - I'll just do ... and you can't stop just - I can just do this real quick then I'll stop Repeat, repeat , repeat OH sh!t is it really 3;15 !!! Dang, in about an hour I could have this done and drive it it'll be getting light by then - when you hear the door open and "ARE YOU STILL OUT THERE????"
Quote from: JD on August 07, 2019, 06:47:03 PM
Funny how that works - I'll just do ... and you can't stop just - I can just do this real quick then I'll stop Repeat, repeat , repeat OH sh!t is it really 3;15 !!! Dang, in about an hour I could have this done and drive it it'll be getting light by then - when you hear the door open and "ARE YOU STILL OUT THERE????"
SOOOOOOOOOO, true!!!!
As you all probably guessed, my wife is out of town through tomorrow. 😜
Quote from: Shelby_r_b on August 07, 2019, 08:01:58 PM
Quote from: JD on August 07, 2019, 06:47:03 PM
Funny how that works - I'll just do ... and you can't stop just - I can just do this real quick then I'll stop Repeat, repeat , repeat OH sh!t is it really 3;15 !!! Dang, in about an hour I could have this done and drive it it'll be getting light by then - when you hear the door open and "ARE YOU STILL OUT THERE????"
SOOOOOOOOOO, true!!!!
As you all probably guessed, my wife is out of town through tomorrow. 😜
I hear you, when the family is away my garage time jumps massively
Good fun
Well done
Quote from: Shelby_r_b on August 07, 2019, 06:19:52 PM
I'm guessing I'm not the only one who has done this before...have you ever headed out to the garage to do a few "minor" things around 8pm, only to find yourself slipping into bed at 3:30am the next day? Yeah, that's me! ;D
So, last night's "I'm just going to prep the car for transmission installation the next day" turned into a full-blown installation. Overall, it went extremely well, with the exception of my exhaust; which now is obstructed via the parking brake bar located on the transmission cross member. Oh well, it could have been much worse! However, I was able to change out the fly wheel, clutch, install the bell housing (late model Fox Body; which doesn't require holes to be drilled in my original bell housing), installation of a late model Fox body starter (which truly pains me, as I have a newly restored concours correct starter :'() and new speedo cable (thank the Lord, as I noticed that the sheathing had been pretty flattened in the past due to exhaust heat, but was still working well).
Tomorrow, I'm getting the exhaust sorted out, and then I'm hitting the road - I can't wait!
This post was brought to you by coffee. Coffee - when you don't know when to stop and go to bed. 8)
What about the drive shaft? Don't you need to order a new length?
Steve
Great progress, Ruben! Did you have to clearance the shifter hole? What type of shifter will you be using?
First, thanks to all for the responses! I've learned a TON going through this process, and I hope that my findings will help others who are thinking of this swap.
Current state: the car is at the exhaust shop getting the H Pipe redone. As I mentioned, the pipes won't clear the parking brake appendage located on the transmission cross member. Also, I did reinstall the original drive shaft just so the exhaust shop could ensure clearance while redoing the exhaust; however, I have a new custom built drive shaft coming (this was all part of the MDL order I placed - you take several measurements once the transmission is installed and the car is on all fours and a shop makes the drive shaft and ships it the same day).
The shifter hole - funny / interesting story. Originally, I was told by several people that I should use my original bell housing and have it drilled to attached the adapter plate (so as to move the shifter on the transmission aft to the stock position). However, I already had a late model Fox Body bell housing, so I opted to use that instead; which, as I mentioned previously, required the use of a Fox Body starter. Upon installation of the transmission, I noticed that the shifter (the rubber boot located around and below the shift lever on the top of the transmission - not the one inside the car) was making contact with the bottom front of the shifter hole by only 1/4 inch. My immediate thought: why didn't I listen to the advise of others!!!! :-[
However, I called MDL and asked about removing my current late model bell housing and going with my original housing with the adapter plate, so as to move the transmission back the required distance...and that's when it hit me (mainly, because Bret at MDL explained it ;D): using a different setup (the original bell housing) would still place the shifter in the exact same position. As Bret at MDL described, all of their parts are geared (pun intended) to put the shifter in the stock position. And, it's not uncommon for the shifter to be a bit forward in the shift hole, as these cars were mass produced and not CNC machined, etc. So, the shift hole can be off from car to car. Also, it dawned on me that I would not be able to line up the transmission cross member, if I pushed the transmission back with a deeper bell housing (which would have to be a custom unit, not the stock bell housing) / adapter setup, as this would move the cross member back as well, placing cross member alignment too far aft.
In the end, I was told to either trim the shifter hole to relieve the shifter contact (which I don't want to do, as the floors are original) or keep an eye on the rubber boot that is making contact with the forward part of the shift hole. And, the cross member fits like a glove, so no worries about unwanted pressure from the top of the shifter boot touching the bottom of the front shifter hole.
I hope this all makes sense. Please let me know if you have different thoughts or perspectives.
I can't wait to drive it, again, hopefully soon! :D
That always gripes my arse, when one contacts the component supplier after the purchase, in the middle of the installation (and you can't send product back after installation, even if only attempted), concerning a fitment issue, and then they say: oh-yea, that's not an uncommon problem, all you gotta due is..........HACK-UP! your collectable classic; how come that wasn't stated before the purchase! >:(
But then, not to rub salt in the wound........., "I".........told you so! ;)
Scott.
"... all of their parts are geared (pun intended) to put the shifter in the stock position." but they didn't. You would've had a much better chance of having everything line up with no interference had you used the adapter plate and an original bell housing. Oh, well...
Quote from: NC TRACKRAT on August 08, 2019, 06:01:17 PM
"... all of their parts are geared (pun intended) to put the shifter in the stock position." but they didn't. You would've had a much better chance of having everything line up with no interference had you used the adapter plate and an original bell housing. Oh, well...
Understood. But, to move the transmission back would have moved the cross member back; which would have kept the cross member from lining up. I could definitely be missing something, but the only way to remedy the situation is to move the transmission more aft.
I'm totally open to suggestions! 👍🏻
Having gone thru this myself a couple of years ago with my 1966 Trans Am coupe replica, this is what I remember. Modern drive line is not some small time shop that dabbles in 5-6 speed conversions they are the leader in it and have great parts and customer support. I used a fox body GT HO 5.0 engine for my car which necessitated their kit and everything fit perfect except a 1/4 inch notch to be trimmed from the top right corner of the shifter hole ,it wouldn't go into 3rd and 5th with out the modification no biggie really. I purchased their hurst shifter arm or something similar and was very happy with it ,it just wouldn't go into 3rd and 5th gear without trimming the hole. So my intent was to have my car look like 1966 but with a modern twist of a go fast small block and modern 5 speed, don't get pissed at them they can and will help you reach your goal. ;)
Is there a way to slot the holes in the crossmember, where the trans sits, to allow movement? It is an aftermarket piece, right? But then
again, is it possible to move the tranmission back without having the input shaft 'fall out' of the bushing/bearing in the crank?
I, too, had to notch a small area in my '66 GT to clearance the shifter. I've read about this issue so often that it seems there must be
some mod that can be made to the tailshaft to move the shifter back.
I'm no engineer but a simple fix in my garage for the next one would to purchase a set of 1965 motor mounts which have a stud and a hole then enlarge the hole approx. 3/8 of an inch move the entire thing back and WALLAH... better weight transfer, fixes some other trimming issues. The problem is when you mix and match 1960s and 1990s parts stick with one or the other unless you have skills to overcome some fitment issues. ;D
Quote from: NC TRACKRAT on August 08, 2019, 06:01:17 PM
You would've had a much better chance of having everything line up with no interference had you used the adapter plate and an original bell housing. Oh, well...
Not unless the commercially produced "adapter plate" suffered from mis engineering; as the intent, or one should say the requirement, is to place the transmission as originally intended, in it's original relationship to the engine, regardless of where that places it in whatever chassis.
Now, this path of using an adapter plate or spacer (with either bell housing) does allow some re-engineering possibilities which we have exercised previously, just for this instance, but it does require consideration for other would be affected engineering intentions, some (not all) already mentioned. ;)
Quote from: 427heaven on August 08, 2019, 07:41:34 PM
................ move the entire thing back and WALLAH... better weight transfer, fixes some other trimming issues.
In most race car intentions, with this type chassis, this would often be an early intent anyway, as there is generally little concern for the appearance of the engine placement in the engine compartment, more concern for function, so yes, voila! At least until you bump into the firewall anyway! 8)
Scott.
This topic made me go look at my 66 and I measured 3 inches before things get tight at the firewall. If the engine had 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch set back I don't think it would even be recognizable. I understand that most don't want to cut up there their pride and joy but a small trim on the shifter opening is a small price to pay for the benefit of 5 or 6 speeds.
As the saying goes, "I guess the Good Lord looks after dumb animals" 'cause mine went together without any trimming, the crossmember lined up and the exhaust system fit.
One of the reasons I selected a different transmission then the T5, the Richmond 5 speed (then know as the Doug Nash) was better fitment.
In my case it uses a Hurst shifter mechanism very similar to the Hurst you would use in a vintage Mustang with top loader. The shifter mounting plates have some degree of adjustability and centering it in the original shifter hole was not an issue.
Thanks again to all!
Doug - good point. The transmission itself seems to be the culprit, given the mounting location of the cross member...and the way the cross member is manufactured to fit the car / transmission.
Stan - you are a blessed man! And, boy - does that setup look cool!
Others - thanks for the suggestions! I should know more soon and will keep you posted.
Thanks :D
I would say that, do what you need to do to make it work and fit. I can't see how anyone is going to have an issue with that when you decide to sell it or more correctly stated, there are going to be lots of buyers who won't have issue with it.
In the meantime you need to explore the new set up. You may like it so much that you are going to get buried in it like me?
Doug, is the Richmond 5-speed a straight forward, zero mods transplant?
🤔
Maybe I don't want that Hone overdrive after all 😎
Holy SMOKES!!!
I just got the car back, and for those thinking of doing the T5 swap, I have three words: JUST DO IT!!!!
As you'll see from the attached picture, I was doing 70 MPH on the highway at about 2,200 RPMs. The car just cruises along so nicely. And, the first 4 gears feel like the original tranny, sans 1st gear; which is now more usable.
Thanks to ALL who have provided input, thoughts, pictures, and moral support. Again, this is the value of the forum, IMO.
Have a great weekend! :D
Glad you did it. I knew you wouldn't regret it. Have fun 👍
Quote from: 2112 on August 09, 2019, 07:15:21 PM
Doug, is the Richmond 5-speed a straight forward, zero mods transplant?
🤔
Maybe I don't want that Hone overdrive after all 😎
Yes with one exception. It uses a Chevy "fine spline" input shaft, so you use a Chevy clutch disc with it. You might want to consider the 6 speed though?
You need to reverse the trans mount also. That's simple, not a big mod. The drive shaft and yoke go back in with no changes.
The 6 speed wasn't available yet when I did mine. It's not as strong being rated for 650hp where the 5 speed is rated for 800.
Also, you want the Ford application. It's 24 inches long. The Chevy version is 22 inches long and you can use it but you'd need to have a longer drive shaft made for it.
I don't know if they still supply it with the friction welded shift cams. If they do, you will need to change those out. Mine are billet chrome molly. I forget who I got those from.
Other then that, it's a nice hefty transmission with t10 type close gears. It literally uses t10 synchros. I don't know about the gears themselves but maybe?
I actually considered the Hone before deciding on the "Nash". There are two Shelbys here with them installed. So I got to see it installed on cars.
The shifter centers well i the factory cut out.
This is the latest;
https://www.richmondgear.com/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/richmond/RG22.pdf
It's overdrive is 23% reduction in RPM
It is certainly stronger than a T5 if it can handle 600lbs of torque. Way more than I will be making.
Are you using a diaphragm style pressure plate or 3-finger?
According to that link, Richmond has completely redone and added offerings. My first gear is 3.26 and 5th is 1:1. I did mine in '82 so obviously it's an earlier version. I'd have to look at the tag to verify the exact first gear ratio. In any case it's a huge difference to the original 2.32 first.
Mine is a direct replacement for the Ford top loader except for the GM style, 26 tooth, fine spine input shaft. It uses the stock bell, drive shaft and 31 spline yoke. All dimensions on the input shaft are Ford dimensions.
As I recall, they introduced a 6 speed around 1985. 6th was overdrive and the transmission was longer then the Ford 24".
I'm using an 11" Centerforce dual friction. That is a diaphram "pressure plate" and mine is literally a Camaro application.
The advantage there is that the Chevy clutch is literally half the price of the Ford. At the time the Chevy clutch was something like $180 and the Ford version $375, or something like that.
This all sounds very complicated but it isn't. It's very simple.
The only part that gets complicated was altering the Hurst shift mechanism to take a Ford shift lever so it looks stock. There was welding done there to attach a small plate to the Hurst so the Ford shifter would bolt on instead of the Hurst lever.
The shift lever is centered in the original hole and uses the original stock small shift boot. No cutting the floor at all for the shift lever.
I would just add, that any 5 speed install in these cars is worthwhile. My decisions were based upon what was available at the time. Obviously things have changed but in a good sense since there are more offerings and more help available.
To anyone who thinks they might like it...you will. You need some courage and of course a couple of bucks as well. Do it. You'll love it and you will never even look back. You will just wonder why it took you so long to change it over?
Question – how low of an rpm is appropriate for a 289hp cruising at 70mph – taking into consideration today's "premium" gas is around 93 octane?
The reason I ask is that I worry about lugging my engine. Because of my free flow exhaust I would never hear pre-detonation pinging if it was happening. So I don't like my engine pulling at less than 2,000 rpm. If the tach gets lower than 2K I downshift.
As far as I can tell these small block Fords don't mind a little reving, but pulling a load at low rpm – I'm not sure. I know that 2,200rpm at 70mph is good for the driver. What about the engine? It might not be as soothing for the driver, but it seems to me that somewhere between 2,600 and 2,800rpm at 70mph would be a good compromise for both engine and driver health.
Am I thinking too deep, or is this an actual concern?
Your thoughts?
Steve
Like any other car, 1,800 to 2,000. You can run these things on regular and they won't ping.
Quote from: SFM6S087 on August 10, 2019, 02:05:40 PM
Question – how low of an rpm is appropriate for a 289hp cruising at 70mph – taking into consideration today's "premium" gas is around 93 octane?
The reason I ask is that I worry about lugging my engine. Because of my free flow exhaust I would never hear pre-detonation pinging if it was happening. So I don't like my engine pulling at less than 2,000 rpm. If the tach gets lower than 2K I downshift.
As far as I can tell these small block Fords don't mind a little reving, but pulling a load at low rpm – I'm not sure. I know that 2,200rpm at 70mph is good for the driver. What about the engine? It might not be as soothing for the driver, but it seems to me that somewhere between 2,600 and 2,800rpm at 70mph would be a good compromise for both engine and driver health.
Am I thinking too deep, or is this an actual concern?
Your thoughts?
Steve
Easiest solution is to go 75 or 80. ;)
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 10, 2019, 03:09:22 PM
Like any other car, 1,800 to 2,000. You can run these things on regular and they won't ping.
So, to confirm: the RPMs need to be kept above 1,800, is that correct?
And, great question, Steve!
For reference, here's a shot of the opening that shows there the front of the shifter is making contact with the floor (I've circled in green). Again, it's a small area, and the cross member went in fine, so the rubber boot doesn't seem to be pinched.
Also, you can see the gold piece that mounts to the top of the shifter and moves the shift lever/handle back about 1 inch to center the lever in the hole. One black nut holds this piece in place, and the bottom has a cutout to fit and sustain the gold piece to the shifter.
Quote from: Shelby_r_b on August 11, 2019, 11:39:17 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 10, 2019, 03:09:22 PM
Like any other car, 1,800 to 2,000. You can run these things on regular and they won't ping.
So, to confirm: the RPMs need to be kept above 1,800, is that correct?
I did this conversion 30 years ago right before driving 600 miles round trip to SAAC 14 at Pocono. Hipo's don't create a ton of low RPM torque and I've found over the years that anything under 55-60MPH (right around 1800 RPM)and you're better off staying in 4th or even 3rd depending on the road.
By the way, open track at Pocono and shifting from 4th to 5th on the straightaway and seeing the tach drop from 7000 to 4400 is a trip but that's also when you realize 60's aerodynamics don't compare to today's cars
Quote from: Shelby_r_b on August 11, 2019, 11:39:17 AM
Quote from: shelbydoug on August 10, 2019, 03:09:22 PM
Like any other car, 1,800 to 2,000. You can run these things on regular and they won't ping.
So, to confirm: the RPMs need to be kept above 1,800, is that correct?
And, great question, Steve!
I don't think you will hurt it, you just won't have any power. That's just the lowest you can cruise at practically. That's a big difference from 3,200.
Vinman was working on that number last time I saw him. If you can get it under 1800 then he'sthe one that can do it. Ask Mongo. He'll ask Vinny.
Quote from: 2112 on August 10, 2019, 05:24:32 PM
Quote from: SFM6S087 on August 10, 2019, 02:05:40 PM
Question – how low of an rpm is appropriate for a 289hp cruising at 70mph – taking into consideration today's "premium" gas is around 93 octane?
The reason I ask is that I worry about lugging my engine. Because of my free flow exhaust I would never hear pre-detonation pinging if it was happening. So I don't like my engine pulling at less than 2,000 rpm. If the tach gets lower than 2K I downshift.
As far as I can tell these small block Fords don't mind a little reving, but pulling a load at low rpm – I'm not sure. I know that 2,200rpm at 70mph is good for the driver. What about the engine? It might not be as soothing for the driver, but it seems to me that somewhere between 2,600 and 2,800rpm at 70mph would be a good compromise for both engine and driver health.
Am I thinking too deep, or is this an actual concern?
Your thoughts?
Steve
Easiest solution is to go 75 or 80. ;)
LOL! I was thinking the same thing. 😜
Just for consideration, the original intention by Doug Nash with the 4 + 1 transmission was to permit the use of a lower ratio rear end gear with the greater gear multiplication accomplished with in the gear box and thereby ending with the "direct" in in high gear (5th) vs. the other option of the the inherently weaker overdrive gear set in high gear and more rear gear value, also generally caused to be weaker; and again since driving thru the gear sets in the box, less efficient, with greater heat production within the gear box and the differential. ;)
A.K.A. your top speed will be slower in the O.D. trans configuration! :o
Scott.
Below is a link to a Mustang Monthly article written in conjunction with MDL about how to do the swap - for those who are interested. This article shows how to do the swap on an automatic car, and it also shows how to install a hydraulic clutch.
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/drivetrain/mump-1111-how-to-install-a-five-speed-transmission
As many of you might know, you have 3 different ways to setup the clutch after the T5 install:
- Mechanical linkage (using the original setup, if you already have a 4-speed car)
- Cable linkage
- Hydraulic clutch
Thanks! :D
Here's a youtube link to video put out by CJ Pony Parts on how to do the T5 swap. I must have watched this well over a dozen times both before and during the swap! ;)
In the video, they do the swap on a 67 Mustang convertible, and you'll notice that the speedo cable is located on the driver's side of the original transmission. However, on a T10, the speedo cable is located on the passenger's side. No worries, as I found that you can remove the clamps holding the speedo cable in place along the lower part of the firewall and move the cable over the bell housing and reconnect the cable on the driver's side; which is where the T5 speedo cable installs.
Also, this video shows the install using the cable clutch linkage.
Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noj8GAS-sp0