Saw a discussion on another forum that stated that there were never any 427 engines installed from the factory in any Mustang or Shelby.When I stated that there were 3 427 Shelbys built in 1967 and documented. I was told that didn't count because they had all left the FACTORY with 428 engines, and the 427 was installed by SA. I have always thought that SA was a manufacturer...would like some input on this subject.
Quote from: Wedgeman on February 19, 2018, 02:45:14 PM
"........... I have always thought that SA was a manufacturer...would like some input on this subject.
Yes they were. Otherwise they would never have been allowed to put their own serial numbers over the Ford VIN's, and have the Shelby VIN on the title.
Z
Quote from: zray on February 19, 2018, 02:53:51 PM
Quote from: Wedgeman on February 19, 2018, 02:45:14 PM
"........... I have always thought that SA was a manufacturer...would like some input on this subject.
Yes they were. Otherwise they would never have been allowed to put their own serial numbers over the Ford VIN's, and have the Shelby VIN on the title.
Z
+1 Shelby American was a MFG of record that is recognized by DMV's because of that fact.
Though it should be noted that some DMVs list Ford on titles..Even while they use the SA vin...go figure...
Had their own MFG plates...
Yes
Yes
Wedgeman
I saw the same text you did and was going to reply but didn't. The accepted rule is that the original SAI sales invoice is key In the case of the Super Snake and the two documented drag units , their respective invoices indicate 427 power "as it left' SAI to the initial buyer. Many cars were modified after taking ownership by the new owner or in some cases either by SAI or one of it's "associates" to exact SAI specs ( in a few cases) but the "after" keeps it from being 'factory equipped". SAI charged for everything they could. Same case for the supercharged cars. There was no free lunch.
My 2 cents worth on the subject.
sa manufactured them except for 1 67 nightmist 500. it was made by Renault and came with a 6 cylinder. it still around in Tacoma.phred
Randy, if that guy wants to use the assembly line as an argument, then I guess there were never any Boss 429 Mustangs. They came to Kar Kraft with 428CJ engines, driven into the facility...and the engines switched..... ::)
No not really. While they started out as R codes, Ford ( at the KK facility) modified them to Boss 429 configuration "before" sale to the public. They were sold with the Z engine code not R. The end customer didn't "buy a CJ" and take it to KK for mods.
Quote from: 557 on February 19, 2018, 04:08:43 PM
Though it should be noted that some DMVs list Ford on titles..Even while they use the SA vin...go figure...
In my hometown the tag agent who had the Shelby MSO in her hand, still said, "....well, you bought it from the Ford dealer, so I'm calling it a Ford...."
They, the tag agents had no choice but to use the Shelby VIN numbers since all the Shelby MSO's (rightly) had only the Shelby American VIN numbers on them.
The state DMV's were, from that point forward, just going by the documents turned in by the various local tag agents. As long the Shelby VIN is on a title, it never bothered me whether the car was called a Ford or a Shelby, and the value was the same in either case.
It does rub some people the wrong way to have their title say "Ford" and a few have done battle with their states DMV and won. My hat's off to them that have gone the extra mile to right a wrong. Even so, I'm of the opinion to let sleeping dogs lay.
Z
I know a guy in a state with annual personal proper tax who prefers to have Ford on the title. Seems the taxes are lower on an old Ford than on a Shelby.
Steve
Exactly- Ford's are cheaper (Tax wise)
CS held that mfg license up until 1998 when he moved SAI to NV / he kept the license all those decades 8)
In October of 2017 I purchased a GT350 from NY where it was registered for 40 years (no title) as a Ford. I submitted the VIN to the Florida DMV and requested that it be titled as a Shelby. The clerk tapped for a while on her keyboard and apparently did a search on the Ford portion of the VIN and told me that I could title it as a Shelby, which I did. :)
Unfortunately, Florida abbreviates the manufacturer's name and officially it is now a "Shely" :(
I got lucky in Texas. The abbreviation on my title is "SHELBY AME". But then my car was originally shipped to Houston and has never left this area. If a car was bought from out of state there's no telling what they'd put on the title.
Steve
Quote from: 557 on February 19, 2018, 04:08:43 PM
Though it should be noted that some DMVs list Ford on titles..Even while they use the SA vin...go figure...
Although the MFG of record, Shelby was a obscure MFG relatively speaking and because of that rather then check some DMV's simply used "Ford" . When presented with reasonable proof they will cave to the reality. Food for thought however ,a Shelby is a Shelby regardless of it says Ford or SA on the title ,registration etc. the Shelby name may smooth our pride and egos BUT it is a tool for local governments that charge sales tax or annual personal property tax to get more money from you in tax's. If you are lucky enough to have your car assessed at a lower value like a regular Mustang that can always change in the future when city and state governments looking for extra income use a algorithm to sort out all of the Shelby's and Cobras for re assessment of value for the purpose of taxation of the added value. The point is you might think twice about changing a titled to Shelby for that taxation reason. I know of Cobra owners with Ford on their title that if the sometimes 7 figure value was known by the tax man would cost them quite a bit more every year. Just sayin ;)
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 22, 2018, 11:29:38 AM
Quote from: 557 on February 19, 2018, 04:08:43 PM
Though it should be noted that some DMVs list Ford on titles..Even while they use the SA vin...go figure...
Although the MFG of record, Shelby was a obscure MFG relatively speaking and because of that rather then check some DMV's simply used "Ford" . When presented with reasonable proof they will cave to the reality. Food for thought however ,a Shelby is a Shelby regardless of it says Ford or SA on the title ,registration etc. the Shelby name may smooth our pride and egos BUT it is a tool for local governments that charge sales tax or annual personal property tax to get more money from you in tax's. If you are lucky enough to have your car assessed at a lower value like a regular Mustang that can always change in the future when city and state governments looking for extra income use a algorithm to sort out all of the Shelby's and Cobras for re assessment of value for the purpose of taxation of the added value. The point is you might think twice about changing a titled to Shelby for that taxation reason. I know of Cobra owners with Ford on their title that if the sometimes 7 figure value was known by the tax man would cost them quite a bit more every year. Just sayin ;)
^^^This :-\
Here's a curve that we have spoken of in the past . My original California title lists the make as GT350 and model cpe for coupe. MANY here were done like that
Quote from: gt350hr on February 22, 2018, 06:10:23 PM
Here's a curve that we have spoken of in the past . My original California title lists the make as GT350 and model cpe for coupe. MANY here were done like that
Yes, same situation for #1183. Make=GT500, Body Type Model=CPEBACK. No mention of Ford or Shelby.
Edit: typed Mode, meant Model.
In Ca. You are supposed to be charged fees based on the purchase price of the vehicle ,not fair market value,so if you got yours when they were cheap....My reg. fees are higher for my 2008 Toyota than for my 67 Shelby...go figure.....
Shelby reactivated his mfg license in the 80s whe he teamed up with Beverly Hills Mustang to build 12 more 66 GT350 cinvertibles. 4 for CS, 4 for BHM and 4 to sell to pay for the whole run. CA required that 95% of the car be new for DMV to recognize them as newly manufactured cars.
6S843 was registered in CA as a GT350 CPE. I got a no smog pump ticket and took the owners manual (with the CA smog exemption letter in it) to the judge that along with the fact that the cop wrote Ford as make on the ticket got it dismissed.
And again for the Series 1 manufacturing in the 1999. I believe he used it earlier for limited run of continuation 427 Cobras on the left over chassis. I am sure we have others that have more detail on this. It does get confusing when Shelby American was temporarily changed to Shelby Automobiles for the Ventures group involvement.
Quote from: stephen_becker on February 22, 2018, 08:33:34 AM
CS held that mfg license up until 1998 when he moved SAI to NV / he kept the license all those decades 8)
NO - CS had let the license lapse - probably at the end of the 67 production. When he teamed up with J Brunk of Beverly Hills Mustang he reactivated the license to manufacture 12 1966 GT 350 convertibles. Those cars had to be at least 80% new parts to be called new manufacture.
Quote from: gt350hr on February 20, 2018, 11:27:41 AM
No not really. While they started out as R codes, Ford ( at the KK facility) modified them to Boss 429 configuration "before" sale to the public. They were sold with the Z engine code not R. The end customer didn't "buy a CJ" and take it to KK for mods.
Since you brought it up........Didn't some 1969 Boss 429 Cars have an "S" Code?
I thought he changed to Shelby Automobiles when Shelby American/Series 1 situation went south?
QuoteSince you brought it up........Didn't some 1969 Boss 429 Cars have an "S" Code?
All the Boss 429s were VIN coded with a "Z" for the engine.
The "S" and "T" designations are simply a way to differentiate changes made to the Boss 429 during the production run.
I think those are listed on the engine tag only?
Quote from: ChicagoChris on May 25, 2018, 03:20:24 PM
I thought he changed to Shelby Automobiles when Shelby American/Series 1 situation went south?
It was changed during the lawsuit, but CS the case against the Ventures investors and reclaimed the Shelby American name as Shelby American, Inc. but no longer has a MSO manufacturers status.
Quote from: Don Johnston on May 25, 2018, 08:43:25 PM
Quote from: ChicagoChris on May 25, 2018, 03:20:24 PM
I thought he changed to Shelby Automobiles when Shelby American/Series 1 situation went south?
It was changed during the lawsuit, but CS the case against the Ventures investors and reclaimed the Shelby American name as Shelby American, Inc. but no longer has a MSO manufacturers status.
They probably issue MSOs. That is just the paperwork for manufacturing the chassis/body of a car - continuation Cobras etc. All kit car manufacturers and complete car manufacturers issue these. It is what you take to DMV to register. It is different and a far cry to being able to put labels (and notation on MSO) that vehicle conforms to NTSB/EPA specs.
Current regs and required testing adding up to 100s of thousands is the reason that CS only does post title mods to street legal cars. You own the car and decide to modify. The messing with emissions/crash regs is on you not them.