How do you know, what wheel your car came with, on a 67? Optional wheel? But then which optional wheel? It seems that the registry is just what an owner says?
Hmmm, OK I will look closer on it...I thought so, but don't remember seeing it.
Contact Dave Mathews, the 1967 Registrar. He has copies of factory paperwork, including invoices.
Greek
It depends on the DSO of the car. There are documents that identify the installed equipment on specific DSO groups.
I know that Dave has some of those documents. I don't know about him having them all?
I do know that on my car the documents show that within the same DSO group, the earliest have the Magstars and the later the 10 spokes and all are invoiced with "Deluxe Wheels". Mine was invoiced with 10 spokes and was sold new by Gotham Ford.
Considering the wheeler/dealer nature of Bill Kolb, the "high-performance" salesman there, it's entirely possible the car was tailored to the first buyer and sold without them. So all that I can document is that it was invoiced new with 10 spokes, and as Dave said, "it left SA with 10 spokes".
Quote from: shelbydoug on October 31, 2019, 11:34:28 AM
It depends on the DSO of the car. There are documents that identify the installed equipment on specific DSO groups.
I know that Dave has some of those documents. I don't know about him having them all?
I do know that on my car the documents show that within the same DSO group, the earliest have the Magstars and the later the 10 spokes and all are invoiced with "Deluxe Wheels". Mine was invoiced with 10 spokes and was sold new by Gotham Ford.
Considering the wheeler/dealer nature of Bill Kolb, the "high-performance" salesman there, it's entirely possible the car was tailored to the first buyer and sold without them. So all that I can document is that it was invoiced new with 10 spokes.
Doug, brings up a good point,the wheels that the car were invoiced with were not necessarily the wheels the car was sold with from the dealer. This was a issue in 67 given the dealer had 3 different factory choices. I don't know how many times I have heard stories from original owners about making the deal if they would switch the wheels from other Shelby's the dealer had in stock . Some showed me original documentation and some didn't. This includes stories of cars invoiced with deluxe wheels that the owner negotiated a lower price with the dealer who switch to hubcap wheels from another car in stock. Unfortunately not everyone can come up with historical documentation.Not every dealer had a wide choice of Shelby's to switch wheels with. I think that is a huge factor if a 67 Shelby actually had the wheels switched. In the spirit of historical correctness given the evidence of wheel choice the cars were delivered with from the dealer, the 67 Shelby wheel choices are given latitude in concours.
Quote from: 67 GT350 on October 31, 2019, 10:22:00 AM
How do you know, what wheel your car came with, on a 67? Optional wheel? But then which optional wheel? It seems that the registry is just what an owner says?
If you want to know how the car was
shipped out of Shelby American the PO (Production Order) is the best place to look.
I've studied this subject in great detail. The DSO only reports how cars were built at San Jose, NOT how they left Shelby American. Initially cars were only built with Magstars. That eventually changed and cars were built with steel rims and sent to SAI. Once SAI received an order from a dealer wheels were changed (or not) depending on the order. In many cases wheels were upgraded.
Looking at an Invoice is not always going to tell you accurately which wheel it shipped out with since there are two kinds of invoices. A 'Vehicle Invoice' is from a franchised Shelby dealer and typically very accurate. However, a "Continuation Invoice' is from a non-franchised dealer. Continuation Invoices do not correctly list the specific upgraded wheels. They were a standard form that listed all the options. If an option was added a simple "1" was input on the left side of the option on the form. The term 'Deluxe Wheel' was used for both Magstar and 10-spoke wheels on that form (both were the same charge at $151.74. This is why we should not refer to an invoice for factory wheel selections.
The wheel info in the 2011 registry typically follows what is written in the PO and is generally very accurate. There are a dozen or so cars that the '67 Registrar does not have the PO for. In those few cases the info may have been taken from an invoice (if it existed), or supplied by the owner, or left blank in the registry.
Again, your best choice to determine which wheel was added by SAI and shipped out to the dealer, is to contact the '67 registrar and request the PO. The Invoice is just as important, just for other info.
Rich
Quote from: Richstang on October 31, 2019, 01:18:41 PM
Quote from: 67 GT350 on October 31, 2019, 10:22:00 AM
How do you know, what wheel your car came with, on a 67? Optional wheel? But then which optional wheel? It seems that the registry is just what an owner says?
If you want to know how the car was shipped out of Shelby American the PO (Production Order) is the best place to look.
I've studied this subject in great detail. The DSO only reports how cars were built at San Jose, NOT how they left Shelby American. Initially cars were only built with Magstars. That eventually changed and cars were built with steel rims and sent to SAI. Once SAI received an order from a dealer wheels were changed (or not) depending on the order. In many cases wheels were upgraded.
Looking at an Invoice is not always going to tell you accurately which wheel it shipped out with since there are two kinds of invoices. A 'Vehicle Invoice' is from a franchised Shelby dealer and typically very accurate. However, a "Continuation Invoice' is from a non-franchised dealer. Continuation Invoices do not correctly list the specific upgraded wheels. They were a standard form that listed all the options. If an option was added a simple "1" was input on the left side of the option on the form. The term 'Deluxe Wheel' was used for both Magstar and 10-spoke wheels on that form (both were the same charge at $151.74. This is why we should not refer to an invoice for factory wheel selections.
The wheel info in the 2011 registry typically follows what is written in the PO and is generally very accurate. There are a dozen or so cars that the '67 Registrar does not have the PO for. In those few cases the info may have been taken from an invoice (if it existed), or supplied by the owner, or left blank in the registry.
Again, your best choice to determine which wheel was added by SAI and shipped out to the dealer, is to contact the '67 registrar and request the PO. The Invoice is just as important, just for other info.
Rich
Great information. I wanted to add that a large amount of 67 Shelby's were built on speculation and made available in storage lots strategically located . That way cars could be more quickly located for a given dealer rather then the long lead time that a ordered car would take. This explains the many complaints by original owners of ordered cars coming in different colors ,options and engines. Most took the cars that came in rather then wait for another car to come in. Also another reason why a wheel may be switched when it came in different.
GREAT information - thanks to all! I had no idea.
I've seen photos of the 10-spoke wheels that had a gold tone to the cast surfaces of the center section and was wondering if that was original or someone's custom modification.
Quote from: mlplunkett on November 03, 2019, 09:25:23 PM
I've seen photos of the 10-spoke wheels that had a gold tone to the cast surfaces of the center section and was wondering if that was original or someone's custom modification.
The tenspokes were bare machined aluminum then clear coated from the factory when new. Sometimes the clear coat will yellow. It also has a bad habit of flaking off. I have seen some with the gold tint also . The ones I saw with the gold tint looked like a PO had done it.
My car is a 10-spoke car, per the Registrar/Invoice, but it was bought new with wheel covers. I could only imagine what happened on the lot/showroom floor..."I like the red car, but I like the wheels on that blue one over there better. If you want to make the deal, I'll take those wheels".
Quote from: 1690 on November 03, 2019, 11:12:36 PM
My car is a 10-spoke car, per the Registrar/Invoice, but it was bought new with wheel covers. I could only imagine what happened on the lot/showroom floor..."I like the red car, but I like the wheels on that blue one over there better. If you want to make the deal, I'll take those wheels".
That probably was very common at larger dealerships with cars to swap from.
10 spokes in particular were not popular until maybe the mid to late '70s. They just didn't have that factory hot rod look like the Torque Thrust's or Craigar's did? Magstars seemed to be more popular since they were easier to keep clean.
The clear coat on the 10 spokes all would eventually turn a piss yellow and there was little desire to deal with that other then taking some wheel cleaner spray cans and hosing it off. MOST people were not going to disassemble the tires from the wheels, strip them down. polish and reassemble.
Popularity of 10 spokes is a recent phenom.
Also in my experience, the color of the casting varies and sometimes is a challenge to get four wheels to look like they are a matching set.
My car came with the "Deluxe Wheels" so can I put either wheel on it and it is considered, "Right"? I have mag stars on it now but I personally like the 10-spokes, I have a set of original 10-spokes that I would like to get restored, but it seems like this if getting harder and harder to get people who know how to do them right. As far as my car goes, Deluxe Wheels do not mean anything then other than two different wheel choices..
Quote from: 67 GT350 on November 04, 2019, 08:52:32 AM
My car came with the "Deluxe Wheels" so can I put either wheel on it and it is considered, "Right"? I have mag stars on it now but I personally like the 10-spokes, I have a set of original 10-spokes that I would like to get restored, but it seems like this if getting harder and harder to get people who know how to do them right. As far as my car goes, Deluxe Wheels do not mean anything then other than two different wheel choices..
If having 10-spokes on your car is going to make you happier than go ahead and switch them. It's not like you can't switch them back.
As for what it left the Shelby American with, the Production Order (PO) is the best internal document to tell you what it had. There were three boxes in it.
'Standard' = Steel wheels with hubcaps
'Shelby' = 10-spokes
'Deluxe' = Magstars
If the '67 registrar doesn't have the PO available for your car then if the 'Invoice' is available that is the next place to look.
If you have a 'Vehicle Invoice" and it lists 'Deluxe Wheels' your car left SAI with Magstars.
If you have a 'Continuation Invoice' and it has a charge next to 'Deluxe Wheels' it only means your car was upgraded from the standard steel wheels. It does not indicate which of the two wheel options it had.
It's your car, if you like the look of 10 spokes, put them on. In the end, that's what really matters, you being happy.
It's always amazed me how just changing the wheels changes the entire feel and character of the car.
I vote for the 10 spokes but I like the highlights fully polished as opposed to "machined".
You should realign the front though since the offset does change the steering a little.
Yes very true, my Magstars are repro and I have original 10-spokes.
Quote from: 67 GT350 on November 04, 2019, 08:52:32 AM
My car came with the "Deluxe Wheels" so can I put either wheel on it and it is considered, "Right"? I have mag stars on it now but I personally like the 10-spokes, I have a set of original 10-spokes that I would like to get restored, but it seems like this if getting harder and harder to get people who know how to do them right. As far as my car goes, Deluxe Wheels do not mean anything then other than two different wheel choices..
Review reply #4 for reasons of giving latitude to wheel choices in concours.
Your car was shipped from Shelby with Magstars but I agree with others that it is your car and you should go with what makes you happy. There are several places that restore 10 spokes. Shelby Parts in WI. does a really nice job. If you have any questions about your car you should contact the 67 Registrar. He owns a car from your DOS 2548(one of 5 cars) and can answer any questions.
Dave
Quote from: GT350DAVE on November 04, 2019, 12:06:52 PM
Your car was shipped from Shelby with Magstars but I agree with others that it is your car and you should go with what makes you happy. There are several places that restore 10 spokes. Shelby Parts in WI. does a really nice job. If you have any questions about your car you should contact the 67 Registrar. He owns a car from your DOS 2548(one of 5 cars) and can answer any questions.
Dave
And he's a heck of a nice guy. ;)
Quote from: shelbydoug on November 04, 2019, 10:04:13 AM
It's always amazed me how just changing the wheels changes the entire feel and character of the car.
I vote for the 10 spokes but I like the highlights fully polished as opposed to "machined".
You should realign the front though since the offset does change the steering a little.
So, so true. Wheels and tires can so change the look and feel to an incredible extent.
I have the same dilemma with my Gotham Ford sold car, number 683. I got to speak with Bill Kolb a few years ago, and he confirmed that they frequently swapped wheels among cars in stock to suit the buyers wishes. I got lucky and have original sets of both 10 spokes and Magstars, but I prefer the 10 spoke look so that's what I'll put on the car. Also it seems like the Magstars lug holes might be more prone to "ovaling" if not regularly torqued down? Just a hunch, the ten spokes seem a bit thicker.
Quote from: BeaterGT500 on February 15, 2020, 01:46:38 AM
I have the same dilemma with my Gotham Ford sold car, number 683. I got to speak with Bill Kolb a few years ago, and he confirmed that they frequently swapped wheels among cars in stock to suit the buyers wishes. I got lucky and have original sets of both 10 spokes and Magstars, but I prefer the 10 spoke look so that's what I'll put on the car. Also it seems like the Magstars lug holes might be more prone to "ovaling" if not regularly torqued down? Just a hunch, the ten spokes seem a bit thicker.
I don't know what the sales numbers of 67 Gotham Shelbys is, but considering Kolb was the "High Performance Salesman of the Year", it was probably a lot?
An early picture of my car shows it with Magstars. I found the original owner and he didn't know the difference between the wheels so he was no help.
I remember when I was a kid, I went with my parents to buy a Ford Pickup truck. They came out of there with a Yellow Fairlane 500. Impulse buying at it's finest!
I wonder how many Shelbys got sold that way?
Listen to the story that Howard Parde tells of buying his first Shelby. It was a '65 GT350. It was Larsen Ford in White Plains and Kolb was the salesman. Kolb wouldn't let him leave until he bought the car.
I also KNOW Kolb would put aftermarket wheels on the car and eventually you couldn't buy these cars without his special package which included undercoating, fuzzy dice on the rear view mirror, floor mats, and a tiger tail hanging out the gas tank.
He is one of THE most aggressive salesmen I have ever met. Don't ever give him you home address, He'd show up at the door with a car for you to buy and wouldn't let you into or out of the house until you bought it.
My Marti report on my my newly acquired 67 gt500 specifically says Aluminum 10 spokes
Quote from: 68krrrr on February 16, 2020, 12:53:49 AM
My Marti report on my my newly acquired 67 gt500 specifically says Aluminum 10 spokes
That still does not preclude the wheels from being swapped before selling to first owner. Wheel swaps to make a new car deal are well established 67 Shelby lore.
Folks are having difficulty with this much freedom Bob?
I have a friend that wanted a 1978 Trans Am so he went to the Pontiac Dealer and saw two, one was Silver with Light Blue Valor Interior and one was Bright Blue Metallic with Gray Valor Interior. He actually talked the Dealer into doing a complete swap of the two Interiors including the Dash and Steering Column. I think the Headliner stayed though.
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 17, 2020, 09:22:56 AM
Folks are having difficulty with this much freedom Bob?
Scary, right?
Quote from: shelbydoug on February 15, 2020, 10:19:59 AM
Quote from: BeaterGT500 on February 15, 2020, 01:46:38 AM
I have the same dilemma with my Gotham Ford sold car, number 683. I got to speak with Bill Kolb a few years ago, and he confirmed that they frequently swapped wheels among cars in stock to suit the buyers wishes. I got lucky and have original sets of both 10 spokes and Magstars, but I prefer the 10 spoke look so that's what I'll put on the car. Also it seems like the Magstars lug holes might be more prone to "ovaling" if not regularly torqued down? Just a hunch, the ten spokes seem a bit thicker.
I don't know what the sales numbers of 67 Gotham Shelbys is, but considering Kolb was the "High Performance Salesman of the Year", it was probably a lot?
An early picture of my car shows it with Magstars. I found the original owner and he didn't know the difference between the wheels so he was no help.
I remember when I was a kid, I went with my parents to buy a Ford Pickup truck. They came out of there with a Yellow Fairlane 500. Impulse buying at it's finest!
I wonder how many Shelbys got sold that way?
Listen to the story that Howard Parde tells of buying his first Shelby. It was a '65 GT350. It was Larsen Ford in White Plains and Kolb was the salesman. Kolb wouldn't let him leave until he bought the car.
I also KNOW Kolb would put aftermarket wheels on the car and eventually you couldn't buy these cars without his special package which included undercoating, fuzzy dice on the rear view mirror, floor mats, and a tiger tail hanging out the gas tank.
He is one of THE most aggressive salesmen I have ever met. Don't ever give him you home address, He'd show up at the door with a car for you to buy and wouldn't let you into or out of the house until you bought it.
Gotham Ford appears to be the highest volume selling dealer in 1967. I estimate around 110 units of '67 Shelby's were sold.
Some further details on dealers volumes were compiled in our SRG group on this topic.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/shelbyresearch/hQpBJ5mlwYw
Those were probably all sold by Kolb himself. He was the Ford High Performance Salesman of the year.
When he wasn't at Gotham he was at Larsen. Sales were pretty high there too.