Of course the Marti Report doesn't show it, but now that I have a copy of the Ford dealer's original sales order to the original owner of my GT-350, the buyer was charged $299.00 for factory FoMoCo a/c. My question is, is a dealer installed option prior to the original buyer taking possession of his new GT-350, considered just an add on, or is it a legitimate option ? Kind of like most radios being dealer installed ?
Thanks,
BG
Well its not "factory" AC. It may be a factory style system. True factory AC usually involves more than just the AC unit, like a change in spring rates and changes in rear axle ratio.
I guess the value depends on what a future owners likes or dislikes? Personally, I would consider it an add on. But, I am not sure what an illigitimate option is. 🤔
Tough question. But, the firewall is different between the non-A/C cars and the factory A/C cars. So, what does it look like where the refridgerant hoses and the heater hoses come through the firewall?
Hey Bob,
Your car was not in a DSO group built at San Jose with A/C (or the AM radio).
If you have dealer paperwork from when new showing they added the A/C it's certainly more than just an owner added option, even if it's not factory.
Very interesting and odd at the same time...considering your car was sold out of Frontier Ford in Niagara Falls NY and not someplace really hot like AZ.
(While many '67 Shelby AM radio's were not installed at Ford's San Jose factory, many were added by SAI before shipping to the selling dealer. I've started tracking that info, but need to collect more SAI PO's (production orders) to see how they add up.)
Quote from: roddster on February 23, 2020, 11:35:29 AM
Tough question. But, the firewall is different between the non-A/C cars and the factory A/C cars. So, what does it look like where the refridgerant hoses and the heater hoses come through the firewall?
Dealer add on A/C for 67 is similar to how the 65/66 Mustangs were done. It was typically a underdash self contained unit installed hanging under the dash in the place where the Amp/Alt gauges go. In the case of the hang on unit the refrigerant lines came out in a different location on the fire wall then the IN dash unit. The dealer add on hang on A/C can be seen as impractical on a Shelby is why those that want to add A/C retrofit a factory in dash unit into their car . Of course if someone had reasonable proof like dealer paperwork of install prior to the first owner taking delivery of the car when new then it would be given a pass in concours venues regardless of if Hang On or Indash. In the case of no back up or when added after delivery then a hang on unit would still be a interesting foot note in the cars history but not considered factory . I saw one once and the Amp/Oil gauges were relocated to the steering column like a Rally Pac? It sure looked unflattering IMO.
Quote from: oldcanuck on February 23, 2020, 10:11:02 AM
Of course the Marti Report doesn't show it, but now that I have a copy of the Ford dealer's original sales order to the original owner of my GT-350, the buyer was charged $299.00 for factory FoMoCo a/c. My question is, is a dealer installed option prior to the original buyer taking possession of his new GT-350, considered just an add on, or is it a legitimate option ? Kind of like most radios being dealer installed ?
Thanks,
BG
It would be interesting to see the paperwork and if it said "factory" A/C or the just A/C. The word "factory" would be unusual terminology regardless of install prior to the customer taking delivery or after delivery as I suspect. The factory style dash would require taking the entire dash apart to replace and install all of the components and wiring needed to make the switch. The engine side would be more straight forward however would still take time to install. The labor involved and the parts needed for the switch would exceed a 299.00 price tag even by 1967 standards I highly suspect. Also It would not be typical for a Ford dealer service department to have the technical know how to pull off retrofit in dash AC installation given it is highly unusual and costly.
Just to be clear, the a/c system is not an under dash add on system, it is the same in dash FoMoCo system that you would see on a factory a/c car. The second owner also confirmed the a/c was in the car when he purchased from the original owner, and when he sold to the third owner in CA. The 3rd owner removed it and it was in the trunk when I purchased. The second owner has pictures as well.
Yes the car was sold new at Frontier Ford in Niagara Falls NY, but the original owner took the car to their winter home in Tallahassee FL. The original dealer sales order also showed the buyer as a FL customer. It just lists a/c and $299.- on the dealer inventory card which is added into the final price bring the total to $4702.78
Quote from: oldcanuck on February 23, 2020, 04:41:12 PM
Just to be clear, the a/c system is not an under dash add on system, it is the same in dash FoMoCo system that you would see on a factory a/c car. The second owner also confirmed the a/c was in the car when he purchased from the original owner, and when he sold to the third owner in CA. The 3rd owner removed it and it was in the trunk when I purchased. The second owner has pictures as well.
Yes the car was sold new at Frontier Ford in Niagara Falls NY, but the original owner took the car to their winter home in Tallahassee FL. The original dealer sales order also showed the buyer as a FL customer. It just lists a/c and $299.- on the dealer inventory card which is added into the final price bring the total to $4702.78
If you went into the dealer and asked to add A/C to you 67 for 299.00 you would get the hang on unit. Not disputing what is in the car now but it is unlikely IMO that that a in dash AC system was what the dealer installed back in the day because of the logistics . Can you imagine the parts guy trying to order or even trying to figure out what to order? ;) It didn't come as a complete kit like the hang on units did. That let alone for 299.00 all installed. Given the unlikelihood of the in dash style add on expect push back when entering a concours event or convincing a knowledgeable Mustang /Shelby enthusiast IMO without further proof given the facts. Of course this is just from a historical stand point . From a practical standpoint I would rather have a after the fact in dash AC then the hang on or even a modern after market unit any day of the week if I had to choose.That is regardless of if it came that way or not. Just trying to give some historical perspective/opinion. Others may have a different opinion.
Adding AC at the dealer would also mean that the service department would have to figure out where to move the underdash gauges to
Agree that a new owner wanting AC on a non-AC car would either have to take their chances finding another 67 Shelby with the option or settle on the underdash/add on AC. Another possibility is that the dealer could make a couple of bucks on the deal and save his workers some grief by subbing the job out to the Sears down the street who did allot of add on AC's in the 60's
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/13/6-230220173954.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/13/6-230220174004.jpeg)
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 23, 2020, 12:30:44 PM
I saw one once and the Amp/Oil gauges were relocated to the steering column like a Rally Pac? It sure looked unflattering IMO.
Quote from: J_Speegle on February 23, 2020, 05:40:28 PM
Adding AC at the dealer would also mean that the service department would have to figure out where to move the underdash gauges to
Indeed.
I have attached pics of gauges moved to steering column and top of dash pad. No disrespect to the the owners, just showing the choices made to add the underdash AC.
Guys,
I am getting this from the second owner of the car, who was a good friend of the original owner in Tallahassee. He had dibbs on the car in 1969.
He is saying the car was delivered by Frontier Ford with in dash a/c, which is the way he also purchased and sold later on.
He has supplied me with pictures, which contain plenty of evidence to what he is conveying to me. These pictures were supplied to him by the original owner after he had purchased the car.
Additionally, the Ford dealer's inventory card attached to the dealer sales order shows the following breakdown;
Shelby American GT-350 $3995.00
Power disc brakes 64.77
Shoulder harness 50.76
Power steering 84.47
Fold-down Rear seat 64.77
Radio 57.51
Freight 86.50
Air 299.00
Total $4702.78
I'm sorry about the picture quality, but these as you can expect are scans of old photographs.
Thanks for adding some photos of your car. Hopefully you've sent a nice photo to Dave for the upcoming new registry.
Do you know how old are these photos are that you've posted?
The prices you've noted are the suggested retail prices noted by SAI.
Shelby American charged dealers $292.06 for factory equipped A/C with a suggested the retail at $356.09.
It is surprising the dealer wouldn't charge at least that MSRP to help offset their costs to add A/C.
Quote from: oldcanuck on February 23, 2020, 10:00:36 PM
Guys,
I am getting this from the second owner of the car, who was a good friend of the original owner in Tallahassee. He had dibbs on the car in 1969.
He is saying the car was delivered by Frontier Ford with in dash a/c, which is the way he also purchased and sold later on.
He has supplied me with pictures, which contain plenty of evidence to what he is conveying to me. These pictures were supplied to him by the original owner after he had purchased the car.
Additionally, the Ford dealer's inventory card attached to the dealer sales order shows the following breakdown;
Shelby American GT-350 $3995.00
Power disc brakes 64.77
Shoulder harness 50.76
Power steering 84.47
Fold-down Rear seat 64.77
Radio 57.51
Freight 86.50
Air 299.00
Total $4702.78
I'm sorry about the picture quality, but these as you can expect are scans of old photographs.
Hopefully the dealer inventory card is genuine. We have seen forged versions to justify out of the ordinary claims before. As previous discussed the 299.00 price does not justify the parts and labor to take out the old and put in the multitude of different Ford in dash components along with the logistics of sourcing them given they would have to be individually identified and ordered. The pictures do show evidence but not the kind of evidence you were hoping for. Yes one picture shows a in dash AC however it also shows a personalized wrapped steering wheel that dose not help in establishing a as delivered time frame for the dash. The next picture of the engine on the other hand shows quite a few most likely owner modifications like spark plug wires ,distributor cap ,wrong air filter element ,after market aircleaner assembly and the like . At the very least 7-10,000 for that many miles to necessitate those items replacement after delivery. The AC components seen in the pictures are the hang on air parts . The style of refrigerant lines ,line valves ,condenser ,dryer and associated mounting hardware indicate as such . They are a generic in nature designed to be used in various applications with the substitution of brackets and such.They are quite a bit different in appearance compared to the assemblyline or even service Mustang parts. I have had quite a few of the kits over the years purchased at swap meets for some of the parts they contained . The mid firewall refrigerant line placement in that same picture as well as the next picture with the engine out establishes the AC unit as the hang on type. The factory in dash unit would only have the refrigerant lines coming out at the far passenger side where the in dash evaporator core sits. The hang on units self contains evaporator core is mounted mid way across the under the dash and consequently has it's refrigerant lines exiting mid way across the firewall as the picture shows. Needless to say that the engine out of the car also establishes a case of a highly worked on car and not anything suggesting untouched as delivered pictures. This evidence confirms the hang on unit install and contradicts the here say accounts of past owners. This would not be the first time a past owner gets it wrong whether because of a faulty memory or embellished the truth to justify out of the ordinary parts . I suppose he could have forgotten the hang on dash. You would think the engine compartment photos would have jogged his memory but then again he might not be aware of the story those pictures tell.
Rich,
Yes I have supplied Dave with some updated recent pictures of the exterior for the new registry. Nothing was said about any interior pictures needed ?
The photos from Merlin Mitchell the second owner are late '70s to early '80s he believes. He purchased the car in early '88 from the original owner finally after waiting 21 years.
Thanks,
Bob
Bob,
What you are seeing, is what Frontier Ford installed for Charlie McNabb in 1967 for air at an invoiced cost of $299.00 per the second owner and good friend Merlin Mitchell. He does recall that the air was a last minute change while making the deal due to the fact that they were taking the car to their FL home.
I have no reason to doubt Merlin or the pictures and original dealer paperwork that was presented to him by Mr. McNabb.
Who knows why Frontier only charged $299.00 ? Maybe they had that factored in on the $1800.- trade of his wife's '65 2+2 Fastback ? I don't know, I wasn't there.
But back to my original question, does dealer air installed, prior to delivery, help in anyway ? I assumed that since Frontier was a Ford dealer, they would have been using Ford factory replacement parts since it was in dash.......that one is on me.
BG
Following along...I am going to take you at your word, everything was installed by the Ford dealer.
I think your question is does it add value to the car? Probably not.
The factory 4spd cars will likely remain the most valuable, however the difference in price isnt usually that significant from the others. At best you are not going to realize all of that difference.
Quote from: Coralsnake on February 24, 2020, 07:52:25 AM
Following along...I am going to take you at your word, everything was installed by the Ford dealer.
I think your question is does it add value to the car? Probably not.
The factory 4spd cars will likely remain the most valuable, however the difference in price isnt usually that significant from the others. At best you are not going to realize all of that difference.
Thank you very much..... I just wanted to know the difference between a factory installed option, and a dealer installed option ....... its really not a big deal for me, as the 3rd owner removed the a/c and now I have it packed away in boxes along with some other componentry that was packed away in the trunk on its shipping journey from So Cal to TN.
I could post scans of the dealer paperwork, but to be honest, it was all stapled together just one time probably by the Ford dealer, and I'd like to keep it that way.
BG
Quote from: Richstang on February 23, 2020, 10:51:27 PM
Shelby American charged dealers $292.06 for factory equipped A/C with a suggested the retail at $356.09.
It is surprising the dealer wouldn't charge at least that MSRP to help offset their costs to add A/C.
Rich,
I was not there...... I do know that Marjorie's '65 2+2 burgundy 289 auto Fastback was the trade involved in the sale, and she and Charlie told the dealer that they would like to have air, due to them taking this car to their FL home in Tallahassee for obvious reasons. Isn't conceivable that in the heat of the negotiations, to sell a new '67 GT-350, can't you just see the Frontier Ford sales mgr calling the parts mgr to find out what their cost was on air, so he could throw that in to make the deal happen. Like none of us has ever seen a dealer do that.
Bob
Bob,
You have a unique Shelby regardless, the fact you've preserved it's history adds to it's future value down the road.
~Steven
Quote from: oldcanuck on February 24, 2020, 07:10:17 AM
Rich,
Yes I have supplied Dave with some updated recent pictures of the exterior for the new registry. Nothing was said about any interior pictures needed ?
The photos from Merlin Mitchell the second owner are late '70s to early '80s he believes. He purchased the car in early '88 from the original owner finally after waiting 21 years.
Thanks,
Bob
Hi Bob,
If you sent Dave a good exterior photo that is likely all he needs for the new upcoming registry. Their goal is to include a photo of each car.
Thanks for dating your posted photos noted from the 2nd owner. 21 years is a long wait!
Rich
Quote from: oldcanuck on February 24, 2020, 08:55:38 AM
Quote from: Richstang on February 23, 2020, 10:51:27 PM
Shelby American charged dealers $292.06 for factory equipped A/C with a suggested the retail at $356.09.
It is surprising the dealer wouldn't charge at least that MSRP to help offset their costs to add A/C.
Rich,
I was not there...... I do know that Marjorie's '65 2+2 burgundy 289 auto Fastback was the trade involved in the sale, and she and Charlie told the dealer that they would like to have air, due to them taking this car to their FL home in Tallahassee for obvious reasons. Isn't conceivable that in the heat of the negotiations, to sell a new '67 GT-350, can't you just see the Frontier Ford sales mgr calling the parts mgr to find out what their cost was on air, so he could throw that in to make the deal happen. Like none of us has ever seen a dealer do that.
Bob
Bob,
Thanks for detailing some of the info you gathered on the original sale. As you said, none of us were there so we'll never know exactly what transpired.
Getting back to your original question, I'm not sure the dealer added A/C will add much value, but since your car is a 4-spd that certainly will in todays world.
Rich
Steven / Rich,
Thank you both.... I appreciate it.
I guess I should have started off with the dealer installed am/fm radio, rather than the a/c .......!!
Finally getting in contact with the second owner, and him supplying everything that he has sent me got me a little jazzed up.
Bob
Here is a scan of the dealer paperwork, consisting of the orange Inventory Card, on top of the pink Invoice, on top of the yellow Retail Car Order stapled together.
Total selling price was $4702.78 less the trade 1807.78 (mentioned previously) for a cash due on delivery total of $2895.00
No where on the Invoice or Retail Car Order does it break down the costs of the individual options, other than the Inventory card. They both state Total Selling Price of $4702.78 only.
Note... no sales tax for out of state, non-resident buyer from FL, and coincidentally the Marti Report shows 02597 sold for $4403.78 which is exactly a $299.00 difference.
BG
Quote from: oldcanuck on February 24, 2020, 07:36:52 AM
Bob,
What you are seeing, is what Frontier Ford installed for Charlie McNabb in 1967 for air at an invoiced cost of $299.00 per the second owner and good friend Merlin Mitchell. He does recall that the air was a last minute change while making the deal due to the fact that they were taking the car to their FL home.
I have no reason to doubt Merlin or the pictures and original dealer paperwork that was presented to him by Mr. McNabb.
Who knows why Frontier only charged $299.00 ? Maybe they had that factored in on the $1800.- trade of his wife's '65 2+2 Fastback ? I don't know, I wasn't there.
But back to my original question, does dealer air installed, prior to delivery, help in anyway ? I assumed that since Frontier was a Ford dealer, they would have been using Ford factory replacement parts since it was in dash.......that one is on me.
BG
I must not be clear enough. The dealer evidence of work done is not in dispute. At least not by me. Whether it was a in dash AC or under dash unit as what would be typical is in dispute by me. The pictures you supplied indicate that a under dash AC unit was what was installed at one time and not a in dash type system as you seem to think was done. Under dash unit is what dealers would typically install and not a factory in dash unit. I am not disputing what is in the car now. I am resistant to perpetuating a unlikely dealer installed in dash scenario based on the evidence that shoes a under dash unit was installed.
As to dealer installed options they typically don't add market value unless desirable by others but they are interesting parts of the cars history. As to your question If the added features are accepted as factory then they are if you have reasonable documentation that the option was dealer added before the first customer took delivery. In the case of a under dash AC I believe it would be perceived as a negative by most . I think that whoever did it made the right choice of replacing the under dash unit with one that looks factory. Based on the picture evidence think the in dash modifacation was done by a past owner.
If the hang-on unit was used, would there be extra holes required on the bottom edge of the dash? In 65-66, there were existing holes, but since 67 would have been integral air, maybe the holes were not there?
Also, if the hang-on unit was used, the hoses would not typically be routed the same as integral A/C... Any signs of filled holes in the firewall? Typically they would be in the 65-66 location, 10" or so above the accelerator crank assy.
Same thing with dryer/condenser installation on the radiator support... usually holes not in the same location.
Quote from: CharlesTurner on February 24, 2020, 01:15:30 PM
If the hang-on unit was used, would there be extra holes required on the bottom edge of the dash? In 65-66, there were existing holes, but since 67 would have been integral air, maybe the holes were not there?
Also, if the hang-on unit was used, the hoses would not typically be routed the same as integral A/C... Any signs of filled holes in the firewall? Typically they would be in the 65-66 location, 10" or so above the accelerator crank assy.
Same thing with dryer/condenser installation on the radiator support... usually holes not in the same location.
Charles review the photos that past owner provided to current owner. You can see the refrigerant lines coming out the center of the firewall. That confirms the hang on air installation.
Guys,
I can tell you that there are what appears to be 2 large a/c brass fittings in/through the firewall right in front of the passenger in what looks to be right behind the glove box.
Also, the previous interior dash picture has been confirmed by the second owner the this picture predates his purchasing the car..... so the original owner took that picture. He also stated that is exactly the way it was when the original owner sold the car, and also when he sold the car to the third owner in San Diego.
When it warms up, I'll peel back the cover and try and get a clear picture.
Thanks,
BG
Quote from: oldcanuck on February 24, 2020, 03:03:32 PM
Guys,
I can tell you that there are what appears to be 2 large a/c brass fittings in/through the firewall right in front of the passenger in what looks to be right behind the glove box.
Also, the previous interior dash picture has been confirmed by the second owner the this picture predates his purchasing the car..... so the original owner took that picture. He also stated that is exactly the way it was when the original owner sold the car, and also when he sold the car to the third owner in San Diego.
When it warms up, I'll peel back the cover and try and get a clear picture.
Thanks,
BG
Yes there would have to be lines there NOW what with the currently installed in dash system. The previous vintage picture's confirm the mid firewall refrigerant lines used with the under dash installation . The fact that the lines came out midway across the firewall in the past confirms that in the past a under dash unit was used. Given that vintage picture evidence some one obviously took that under dash system out to install the current factory style in dash system. Let me be clear I think the current in dash system looks much better and I would not suggest changing it . I do not think it effects the cars looks or value in a negative way. The current in dash system however was not the system that the dealer installed back in the day based on the evidence.
I've collected a LOT of Ford built in A/C parts in order to retrofit a system into my son's 67 GTA.
As Bob noted, the center of firewall A/C lines do not square with a factory built-in system.
Here is the original picture blown up, the firewall on my 67 (to show the A/C heater hose knockouts) and a pic of the heater/evaporator case.
The original firewall picture shows two heater lines coming out of the usual heater holes in the firewall (red dots). If fitted with a factory-style A/C evaporator case this routing would be impossible (see evaporator case pic).
Also, the picture shows the A/C lines (green) going to/from the evaporator. This location would simply not line up with a factory evaporator case. And it would make no sense to make new holes in the center of firewall if you already have the outlets available in the old heater blower hole.
As shown in the evaporator case picture all of the required lines come through the firewall in the vacated blower motor area and in the knockout for the new location of the heater water lines. The firewall cutout areas are roughly marked in red on the case.
Thanks Bill for your embellishment of the picture.
Yes I can see it now. Apparently the second owner must have been mistaken. Unfortunately I was not there, but I wish I was. The only thing that could have possibly happen is the original owner had the dealer installed a/c updated/changed if it didnt keep up with the FL heat.... who knows.
I am attaching pics of the a/c fittings in the firewall as it is today. I capped them just to keep junk out, since the a/c components are boxed up.
Thanks.
Pictures per my last......