I finally did the drop in my car last weekend but now I need to get it aligned. I've seen several recommendations for the proper alignment specs but thought I would ask. One suggestion I saw was:
Toe 1/8" in
Camber -1/2 to -1
Caster +2 to +3
What should I go with?
Thanks!
That's it presuming you have power steering?
-3/4 on the camber but depends on the tire. You need to try it and see if there is too much side loading.
You need to watch the front of the fender lip from the caster. The setting will bring the tire further forward in the opening and could scrape there.
You MUST do a bump steer elimination kit. It's mandatory. If you don't, the car is going to change lanes without you moving the steering wheel.
Yes, I have power steering.
Which bump steer kit do you recommend?
There are a few. Go look at Cobra Automotive. You can call them for advice. Good for a newbie to this.
Would this bump steer kit work?
https://baer.com/Baer-Tracker-Tie-Rods-3261002.html
http://store.cobraautomotive.com/bumpsteer-kit-for-1967-69-spindles/
What it does is raise the mounting points of the tie rod ends on the spindle arms. I used a different kit from a different manufacturer that no longer makes them.
I trust Cobra Automotive.
I definitely trust them too. I drool every time I flip through the catalog!
About 40 years ago I did the drop on my 67 in accordance with the Boss 302 chassis manual.
First I replaced the power steering with a manual steering and I set the alignment to:
Toe-In 1/8"
Camber -1/2 degree
Caster + 2 degrees.
Still have that set up and have never regretted it.
Texas Swede
You want to make sure that you have enough toe in. Toe in measurement is ALWAYS an approximation. A little too much is better then not enough. 1/4" is a little too much for tre wear basically.
A radial tire, because it has soft sidealls is tougher to get just right. With a radial tire use 3/16" total. 1/8" is ok for a bias ply tire.
This is what keeps the car tracking strait.
You should be able to take your hands off the wheel at 100 or so and the car goes straight.
A harder, shorter front spring modification like shown in the Boss 302 chassis manual helps. When you cut it to get the spring rate, you probably will need to shim them.
I just used the solid poly, Mr. Gasket 1" spring doughnuts and that's just about right.
You want to finish all of the front modifications before you align everything.
I went with a 1-1/8" front anti-sway bar, poly bushings on everything and a 1.5" upper a-arm drop with ball joint wedges.
You would think it rides like a truck but it's more like a Lincoln with a soft ride. 680in-lb front springs.
The only one that ever noticed anything was Jim Cowles. He noticed that the top of the hood didn't line up with the other cars while we were all parked together. He decided it was about the thickness of his fist lower? Silly boy. ;D
First I've heard of the need for a "bump steer elimination" kit.
The cars stock bump steer ever so slightly. Lowered upper a-arms...forget about it.
If you're driving an original '65 GT350 and never noticed it, better check your pulse, you might be dead? (They're nasty...those ain't bumps in the road) ;)
I like the idea of lowering the car but not so much that it's obvious and it sounds like you achieved that. A lot of the cars in photos seem to ride high in the nose. Are you using shortened springs and then adding back some of that with the 1" spring donut? How much does the typical 1" Arning drop lower the ride height? Does switching everything to the poly bushings have any effect over the amount of road noise that comes through?
Quote from: mlplunkett on March 02, 2020, 11:50:00 AM
I like the idea of lowering the car but not so much that it's obvious and it sounds like you achieved that. A lot of the cars in photos seem to ride high in the nose. Are you using shortened springs and then adding back some of that with the 1" spring donut? How much does the typical 1" Arning drop lower the ride height? Does switching everything to the poly bushings have any effect over the amount of road noise that comes through?
If you are asking me (not sure), I've done two drops. First I did the Shelby 1" drop. Then there was a guy in Utah offering a 1-1/2" drop with a complete kit.
Shelby did the 1" drop because it was the most that you could go without having to use wedge spacers on the lower ball joints to keep them from locking up. 1" IS NOT the optimum drop.
The guys name was Boyd and autocrossed a 68 GT350. He pointed out (righfully so) that
something in the 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 was. He originally offered the kit as 1-3/4, then backed out to 1-1/2 due to customer use issues.
I've got the 1-1/2" in the car. It uses supplied aluminum ball joint wedge shaped spacers, specially milled thick flat washers and a 1/8" steel pattern plate that you bolt in place using the original holes, then use to drill new holes, then leave it in place as reinforcing to the shock tower.
I'm not sure why the '65 owners don't notice the bumpsteer issue with the car other then they are already cross circuited brains because of the loud side pipes and whacky Detroit-locker? Certainly the numb-nuts phenomenon is not necessarily just limited to Shelby owners but it does seem at times to be prevalent?
Initially I was using the Boss 302 chassis modification booklet in 72 or 73 when I was doing this and also went to the "off highway front spring". That required the spring to be cut 1 full coil off of the spring to get the desired rate of 680 lbs.
The issue that became apparent, was that it lowered the car to full Trans Am race height which for various reasons was not a good idea on the street.
Initially I found that the 1" rubber "Mr.Gasket" spring spacer installed on top of the spring put it right about where I wanted it. That is essentially at the top of the tire/wheel well opening with a 235-60-15 tire on 10 spokes, as opposed to a fender over the top of the top of the tire with a "slammed" look. Later that spacer was changed to a full poly by Just Suspensions along with replacing all rubber with poly bushings. I would recommend those changes.
The bump steer is another issue all together. With bias ply tires (Goodyear E70-15) besides riding like it had concrete tires would catch a seam in the road and the car literally would change lanes by maybe a half lane?
I later extrapolated that number to be at 70 mph and a full lane at about 100 mph.
When I went to BFG radials you could tune the suspension with tire air pressure but not enough to eliminate the bumpsteer.
At first I didn't know what it was. Shelby guys would come up to me asking about the lowering of the a-arms and asking how bad the bump steer was? Numb nuts that I was at the time, I investigated and found that many of the current racers were using "bump steer elimination 'kits' ".
Being cautioned by Curt Voght, he said the kit still needs to be adjusted according to "my own car" and the arc needed to be measured through the travelling path. Well, long story short, I was good right out of the box. So I left it alone using Boyd's kit, which is still on the car.
Now considering that this is just a "street car"...ahhhem... and I don't race against him and Scotty, I'm good.
As the folks at "Cobra Automotive" will tell you, every little thing that you do to the suspension, makes the car a little better.
At this point, that's proprietary information but suffice to say, the car isn't stock and let's leave it at that.
Now, Walter Mitty that I apparently am, with the addition of the T/A dual Holleys, I'm driving a T/A car in disguise on the street. I don't know if it is exactly 500hp, since I don't have the dyno in the garage...yet, but "it'll do". ;)
I tried to post a picture that would answer your question about the ride height but it won't upload. Send me a PM with you email and I'll email it to you.
If you decide to do the 1" lower springs, who's springs are best as several suppliers advertise them ?
Since I'm sure we have members that have done it both ways..... how does the end result differ ?
Also what does this do to the alignment specs ?
Thank You,
BG
j
Quote from: oldcanuck on March 03, 2020, 07:08:17 AM
If you decide to do the 1" lower springs, who's springs are best as several suppliers advertise them ?
Since I'm sure we have members that have done it both ways..... how does the end result differ ?
Also what does this do to the alignment specs ?
Thank You,
BG
I did the drop using Ford springs from the Boss 302 chassis parts list in the '70s. I would recommend that you talk to Curt or Scotty at Cobra Automotive for their recommended substitute.
Some are concerned that this is a race only modification. After running it on the street for 40 years I can tell you that it is not. It is a very streetable modification.
Those modifications in the Boss 302 Chassis modification booklet are from Kar Kraft, not Shelby and are more modern changes then what was used on the '65 GT350.
For the race cars, it was only a starting point.
The alignment specs don't change. 3/16" toe in, -1/2 to -3/4 camber, 2 to 2-1/2 caster with power steering on the street. As much as you can get without the tire hitting the fender.
You will set the camber to where the tread rides flat. Mine is at about -5/8 degrees.
The other modifications take care of the body roll and averages the most tread on the pavement at all combinations of turning. That's what it's all about.
Stock, the tires roll over on the outside of the tread. That's why the cars are done by 70 mph. Ford didn't build race cars for the street. "Shelby's" were just a trim package to them. "Performance" on the street was racing stripes.
Most race cars are going to go more on negative camber but too much slows down the car down the straights.
A dedicated autocross car would likely use much more.
Also depending on the driver, over 2-1/2 positive caster with manual steering makes it difficult to turn the car. Effort goes way up, but the positive caster keeps the car going straight under power.
I find that on my 68, 2 degrees of + caster will make the tire hit the lower portion of the fender at the lower end in the front of the opening. I also don't need more then that.
The Panteras by comparrison with the GT4 configuration, 10" wide front wheels need twice that much, 4 degrees to stop the jiggling through the steering down the straights.
Race only Mustangs with wider front wheels may need more caster? That I don't know?
I can tell you that these specs I've given you will work on any street driven car. A race car, that's just the start and you likely will need to adjust them depending on the track, surface conditions and tread compounds so that's not a casual setting. Every team and driver will likely vary.
You also need to do work on the rear for serious handling, It isn't just the front. That's another subject.
Just a question. Couldn't you use a different height upper ball joint and achieve the same geometry ? I see a company name Howe is the stock car magazine that offers ball joints in different heights. Not sure if they offer them for the mustang. Sure would be easier to install.
Quote from: motorhead428 on March 03, 2020, 09:54:13 PM
Just a question. Couldn't you use a different height upper ball joint and achieve the same geometry ? I see a company name Howe is the stock car magazine that offers ball joints in different heights. Not sure if they offer them for the mustang. Sure would be easier to install.
Not sure but I think you need to lower the inner pivot point.
I think that you need a horizontal line through the inner pivots and ball joint center lines?
With the 1" drop it does not require bump steer correction. With the 1.5" drop it will.
You'll also want to use the Global West LOC-2 Excentric lock out kit.
The specifications that have worked best with the power steering on my 1967 Sheby are:
Caster Passenger side: 3 1/2 degrees positive.
Caster Driver side: 3.0 degrees positive
Camber: Driver and Passenger 1/2 degree negative.
Toe in 3/ 32 total.
This is for power steering and I haven't had abnormal tire wear with these settings.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 04, 2020, 05:47:47 PM
With the 1" drop it does not require bump steer correction. With the 1.5" drop it will.
You'll also want to use the Global West LOC-2 Excentric lock out kit.
The specifications that have worked best with the power steering on my 1967 Sheby are:
Caster Passenger side: 3 1/2 degrees positive.
Caster Driver side: 3.0 degrees positive
Camber: Driver and Passenger 1/2 degree negative.
Toe in 3/ 32 total.
This is for power steering and I haven't had abnormal tire wear with these settings.
All I can do is share my experieces. They may vary from yours. In my case, the 1" drop resulted in what I would describe as severe bump steer.
I do remember that there are two pattern configurations for the 1" drop.
One is where the bolt holes are plumb to each other. The other where the bolt holes wind up parallel but something like 1/4" or 3/8" behind the plumb line.
I think the plumb pattern is what was used by Shelby on the '65s. The second method is what was being recommended for the later cars coming out of Kar Kraft and what I used.
I'm not sure if that would account for the differences in bump steer issues or not. It's my understanding that is more an issue with the steering arm location on the spindles.
The simple solution being to raise the height of the mounting of the tie rod end about 5/8".
I have heard from others that there is a difference in Castor settings between '67s and '68s. I can't verify that one way or the other.
In my case, the COMBINATIONS of front suspension modifications limit my castor to a maximum of about 2-1/2 degrees befor the tire hits the bottom front of the fender opening.
My tire, wheel, wheel offsets with my configuration likely are different then others and logically could explain the limitations my combination has.
I will say that castor really is the largest factor in giving the car straight line stability combined with ease of steering through turns .
To answer an unasked question, yes the car has participated in high speed events, is a street car and not a race car and has pinned the speedometer with no steering where you want it to go issues. Again, these are done with my combinations. Yours may and probably will vary?
I don't do this for a living. I speak from 48 years of specific experience with my 68 GT350. Most is trial and error, with lots of error and more trials.
I just share to save others from going down the same route of mistakes and I'm not a lawyer here to debate the meaning of what "is" is, or debate what is necessary, or what is severe.
It's a free country and everyone should have the right (although that seems to be a legal term) or more correctly the opportunity, to venture out on their own and make their own mistakes, discoveries and accomplishments. It's all part of the experience I suppose?
Mine has been an enjoyable and busy 40 some odd years of "experiences". I hope yours will be too? Best... ;)
Doug- Is your car squatted low on the rear of the car or more on the level side? I also changed over to the Global West 640LB 1" lower spring and the poly 1/2 spring to tower spacer. Tony Branda's catalog has alignment specifications too for the Arning drop. It chewed up tires.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 11, 2020, 03:19:16 AM
Doug- Is your car squatted low on the rear of the car or more on the level side? I also changed over to the Global West 640LB 1" lower spring and the poly 1/2 spring to tower spacer. Tony Branda's catalog has alignment specifications too for the Arning drop. It chewed up tires.
No. The low squat always bugged me. The car was my everyday transportation when I got it in '72.
I couldn't put any adult in the back seat without it sitting all the way down on the bump stops, eliminating any rear travel, up and down at all.
I came to a solution that I still use. What I did was get another used set of rear springs, take them apart and cut the loops off of the top leaf. Then I added that top leaf to the stock assembly in the car.
This raised the ride height in the rear to right to a level point.
A couple of other things helped. That was removing the sheet metal clamps and changing out the Koni rear shocks for Comfort-ride rears.
I DON'T CARE what the "book" calls those things. As far as I am concerned, all that they do is add to the choppiness of the ride.
At some point I had also decided that there was no point to the rear seat. First I substituted a 65 GT350 rear luggage panel, then a 66 which is still in the car today.
The battery went in the trunk around that time also.
This was all done in the early 70s. There wasn't much information being shared then so everyone was really on their own.
As far as the extra rear leaf spring, I had noticed that was a common change to the R models and TA coupes I had seen so it isn't a Martian thing to do, just more of a secret proprietary info thing? Racers then didn't share information and considered things like this THEIR personally discovered secrets.
I'd recommend the spring change to anyone now. Combined with the radial tires, it has totally eliminated all of the early handling criticisms of these cars. It is no longer susceptible to bumpsteer, bottoming out and being hassled by road seams. It rides like a Lincoln should and how a Lincoln never could quite get to.
This was also done before individuals calling themselves the Shelby Secret Police were diagnosed and released from observation. They were still being held in captivity and not yet deemed safe to release. Some were Section 8 military personnel. Others, their medical benefits ran out and they were just let go. Some wound up here. Go figure?
Apparently some one made a decision that being annoying is not a public hazard although the mask, tights and cape leave a little doubt in my mind?
...and heck guys, if you're gonna wear the tights consider wearing a g-string, a card piece and waxing? Gee-se!
shelbydoug,
I made the same decision to put a '66 package tray in my '67 G.T.500 to prevent my 235R-60-15 tires from hitting the fender lips. That also took care of passengers burning their backsides when the seats got too hot from the mufflers which are located directly under the rear seats. Turns out that the rear seat dimensions are all the same from '65 though '70 for Mustangs. I've used this setup for many years now with no issues.
I fixed the hot "arse" issue another way. Dynamat. The entire vehicle except the trunk was done. I didn't want it to be seen but it made sense to do during the restoration.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 11, 2020, 11:04:36 PM
I fixed the hot "arse" issue another way. Dynamat. The entire vehicle except the trunk was done. I didn't want it to be seen but it made sense to do during the restoration.
I like the package tray idea. It keeps folks guessing. 8)
Like they aren't confused enough. lol
Quote from: S7MS427 on March 11, 2020, 10:54:21 PM
I made the same decision to put a '66 package tray in my '67 G.T.500 to prevent my 235R-60-15 tires from hitting the fender lips.
I am confused. How does a package tray give me more fender clearance?
Quote from: 2112 on March 12, 2020, 02:51:37 AM
Quote from: S7MS427 on March 11, 2020, 10:54:21 PM
I made the same decision to put a '66 package tray in my '67 G.T.500 to prevent my 235R-60-15 tires from hitting the fender lips.
I am confused. How does a package tray give me more fender clearance?
No Fat Arses sitting in the aft seating.
I had custom rate springs made. They are 190LB rears. However, with 255 tires they will still catch the edge of the fender well on a good bump. One of the more interesting sounds the springs hitting the snubbers on the floor pan on a spirited launch.
Quote from: 2112 on March 12, 2020, 02:51:37 AM
Quote from: S7MS427 on March 11, 2020, 10:54:21 PM
I made the same decision to put a '66 package tray in my '67 G.T.500 to prevent my 235R-60-15 tires from hitting the fender lips.
I am confused. How does a package tray give me more fender clearance?
Huh? It has absolutely nothing to do with the inner wheel wells. All it does is fill the void left by the removed seat assembly.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 12, 2020, 07:29:19 AM
Quote from: 2112 on March 12, 2020, 02:51:37 AM
Quote from: S7MS427 on March 11, 2020, 10:54:21 PM
I made the same decision to put a '66 package tray in my '67 G.T.500 to prevent my 235R-60-15 tires from hitting the fender lips.
I am confused. How does a package tray give me more fender clearance?
Huh? It has absolutely nothing to do with the inner wheel wells. All it does is fill the void left by the removed seat assembly.
I was kinda wondering the same thing......... (que the head scratch).....
I think the package tray looks great! Nice, clean look.
Quote from: Dalton on March 12, 2020, 08:06:50 PM
I think the package tray looks great! Nice, clean look.
Thanks but it isn't my design. It shows in the "illustrations" of the later cars so it probably was always a thought.
If you are going to do it, the originals are molded plastic and only appeared in a few of the first "66 carryover cars". There were problems with them in that if left in the sun, they would become extra soft and floppy, almost to the point of melting.
You don't really want a '65 panel with the mold for the spare tire. It's for a really skinny 15" tire. Almost nothing will fit into the thing.
The panel that you really want is a fiberglass 66 repro panel. It's got the reinforcing ribs molded into it and a lip on the front to stock stuff from sliding forward. It's a very easy drop in and you don't even need to bolt it down.
I did. I don't like anything flying around in the car in a crash and apparently I am very vain? I want the rescuers to find my body intact with no dismembered parts to search for.
My back seat is just in storage and goes with the car to the next caretaker sometime after I demise.
I don't plan on doing it since my kids are 7 and 4, but I would look into it if they didn't love riding in "Snake Car" so much.
Quote from: Dalton on March 13, 2020, 10:55:02 AM
I don't plan on doing it since my kids are 7 and 4, but I would look into it if they didn't love riding in "Snake Car" so much.
It's your choice. I consider putting anyone back there "cruel and inhuman punishment". Both of my kids survived without a back seat and now are well and kicking in their "terrible 30's". You have a ways to go still.
Will the 66 package tray fit in a 69? I don't let anyone sit in the back seat anyhow and losing the weight of the fold down assy would be a bonus!!
And who makes/carries them?
Thanks in advance, Mike
Quote from: mikeh on March 13, 2020, 04:30:39 PM
Will the 66 package tray fit in a 69? I don't let anyone sit in the back seat anyhow and losing the weight of the fold down assy would be a bonus!!
And who makes/carries them?
Thanks in advance, Mike
I'm not 100% positive but I think that the fold down rear seat assemblies are the same except for the upholstery.
Try Tony Branda. He carries a lot of fiberglass parts.
http://www.cobranda.com/19shresh.html
Thanks, looks like Branda does carry. I would like to hear from anyone that knows whether it would fit a 69, I will check with them also. Guess I should start a new thread.
Much appreciated!!
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 13, 2020, 05:25:01 PM
Quote from: mikeh on March 13, 2020, 04:30:39 PM
Will the 66 package tray fit in a 69? I don't let anyone sit in the back seat anyhow and losing the weight of the fold down assy would be a bonus!!
And who makes/carries them?
Thanks in advance, Mike
I'm not 100% positive but I think that the fold down rear seat assemblies are the same except for the upholstery.
Try Tony Branda. He carries a lot of fiberglass parts.
http://www.cobranda.com/19shresh.html
The fold down rear seat assemblies are the same except for the upholstery and some trim.Logically it should fit the same although I have never seen that modification done on a 69/70 Shelby - ever ,hint,hint ,nudge ,nudge ;)
Well you probably will now, but I'm sure you are not surprised by that Bob! At least not by who you're dealing with! ;D
The panel is intended to replace the seat assembly. If the seat assemblys are all the same, then the panel will fit. I thought that was pretty clear?
I agree, the rear seat dimensions are all the same. It should pretty much be a drop in. The originals were rivited to the interior fiberglass quarter panels. Not wanting to desicrate my virgin inner quarters, I build a couple of brackets out of aluminum extrusion. The brackets were screwed in to the fold down hinge. Two oval head Phillips screws and finishing washers (hardware store stuff) per side hold the tray to the brackets. The only thing else I did was to fabricate a block and attach it to the rear lip of the tray (centered of course) to keep the rear trap door from rattling around. I got my tray from Branda. You can see the finished result on my G.T.500 opening page on my website.
Thanks Roy, awesome cars btw!!!
I like the looks of the tray, but considering I'm well over 500 HP I can't afford to lighten the car up. Especially over the rear axle. So the extra 80lbs of fold down will have to remain. No one has ever sat in the rear seat since I've owned the car. However, the fold down has a crass name for a justified reason. Damn, I'd love to be in my late 20's again.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 17, 2020, 08:58:22 AM
I like the looks of the tray, but considering I'm well over 500 HP I can't afford to lighten the car up. Especially over the rear axle. So the extra 80lbs of fold down will have to remain. No one has ever sat in the rear seat since I've owned the car. However, the fold down has a crass name for a justified reason. Damn, I'd love to be in my late 20's again.
20's? Why? Put a couple of "whahenies" back there and watch them jiggle? Hum?
Take the seat out, put a couple of battery boxes in the trunk with "ballast" in them. Lead shot works well. You don't need it for you shotgun shells do you? :)
All I have currently Doug is a 50lb bag of OO buck here. I guess if they came out, the pea-sized shot would be much easier to clean up than birdshot.
I got really pissed off when I dumped half a cup of coffee. The plug came out of the Starbucks. No cup holder and a four-speed transmission.....
I was so pissed off that while using the spot bot to clean up the coffee I got my arm tangled up in the shoulder harness.
I don't want a drop-in console but I need something that will hold a couple of cups of coffee.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 17, 2020, 10:17:54 AM
All I have currently Doug is a 50lb bag of OO buck here. I guess if they came out, the pea-sized shot would be much easier to clean up than birdshot.
I got really pissed off when I dumped half a cup of coffee. The plug came out of the Starbucks. No cup holder and a four-speed transmission.....
I was so pissed off that while using the spot bot to clean up the coffee I got my arm tangled up in the shoulder harness.
I don't want a drop-in console but I need something that will hold a couple of cups of coffee.
Are you referring to a female companion? Go to Vegas. I understand the strippers are easily influenced. Find a country girl that has no problem with the shotgun....just don't tell the wife? Mine can shoot too. She knows just how much to lead when you run. ;)
Doug: That would be a much more ideal situation. However, sadly I only had two hands for use and one was on the knob... NOT THAT ONE! The shifter. :o
One of these days I'll find a replacement right-seater.
If you look for one, get a young one. They aren't smart enough to get a lawyer yet?
Dear God. An empty-headed millennial. Just say NO!
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 18, 2020, 03:17:32 PM
Dear God. An empty-headed millennial. Just say NO!
Wait! What about a stewardess?
The first thing I do when I check into a hotel is look for the yellow pages. BY FAR the two largest Yellow page sections of "Escorts" was Dallas and Charlotte.
They like to go for long rides? What's the air time from Dallas to Rome?
Actually I went out with a redhead. A real one . She was a pisser. I had a great time and she is ornery as hell. However, she's 18 years my junior.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 18, 2020, 03:37:07 PM
Actually I went out with a redhead. A real one . She was a pisser. I had a great time and she is ornery as hell. However, she's 18 years my junior.
I just look for ones with Grandpa issues or 50 year olds with Daddy issues. They can just ride in the car, NOT drive it!
Well, the driving part goes without saying! lol