Hi guys,
Looking to identify a 1967 GT500 engine block:
Casting C6ME Correct ?
A letter A at the back of the block, anyone have a picture.
Thanks,
Texas Swede
C6ME-A. A scratch on the rear.
The date code needs to be within the production of 67 Shelby's and within about 3 weeks of the Ford Build.
There are some made before and after. Those can't be called 67 Shelby production blocks.
At some point in very late production, there are reports of original C scratch blocks but the detemining factor would probably be the casting date.
There is also an assembly date stamped into that rectangular projection above the oil filter adapter location and the assemblers initials.
All of those things help since there is no serial number stamped into the blocks.
Don't wash the paint swipes off of the lifter valley. Leave them if you can.
Date code
In my original block there was no A painted. However, the numbers were present at each bore in the lifter valley. They were for piston fitment on the assembly line. Because of modern cleaning processes for the block being hot tanks are all but non-existent it would be difficult to preserve paint in the valley. I am not really sure why it would be necessary.
I have seen C7ME-A blocks dated as early as February 1967.
Remember, because it's a C6ME-A or C7ME-A doesn't make it a 428, nor does the A scratch on the back, even though it likely is.
The service block that I currently have here is a XI. Just when we think something makes sense. Now if you have crossbolts there is a 99.9 chance it's a 427.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 17, 2020, 10:11:34 AM
I have seen C7ME-A blocks dated as early as February 1967.
Remember, because it's a C6ME-A or C7ME-A doesn't make it a 428, nor does the A scratch on the back, even though it likely is.
+1 what do the water passage holes on the deck look like?
No. Look for the web strength if "feet" that the block should have.
Thanks guys,
You are the best. My 67, #1317 was scheduled and built the same day at San Jose on January 31, 1967.
What cast and assembly date code ranges would the engine need.
Texas Swede
Quote from: Rickmustang on March 17, 2020, 10:59:50 AM
No. Look for the web strength if "feet" that the block should have.
There are no exterior differences on a 67 390/ 42 and they do NOT have the extra webbing. That started in 68.
Quote from: texas swede on March 17, 2020, 11:29:59 AM
Thanks guys,
You are the best. My 67, #1317 was scheduled and built the same day at San Jose on January 31, 1967.
What cast and assembly date code ranges would the engine need.
Texas Swede
That probably means all of the parts were there to build it immediately. Depends on the combination going into it? A 4 spd, non-air, non emissions, black interior would probably be the easiest.
Shelby completion dates on the automatics with air show some big differences between build dates and completion dates. The presumption is something was missing to complete the car?
I would think from about Christmas to New Years day would be perfect for your casting dates?
I've seen some of that two to three week window vary though according to the time of the year.
You just know that a block cast in May of 66 couldn't likely be in a 67 Shelby where the first build is probably in Novermber 66. That's a stretch.
Having said that though I've seen engines with what appears to be the original heads that aren't even close to having been cast at the same time. Maybe a month to six weeks apart, so I don't know what's with that other then with the FE's, never say never.
My block has the CJ webbing in it. Maybe they all should? I don't know about that?
Some sellers have claimed that there are 428 blocks without any scratch marks. At this point I'd error on the side of caution and say that is just not so. They likely are 390 blocks that have been bored out.
The 390 blocks don't have the CJ webbing either as far as i know but the world of Ford FE's is a strange one and I have often found other parts that should not exist but do.
This block has the capacity to do the 427 cross bolts on. It would be a very expensive undertaking to do at this point.
It DOES NOT have the 428 showing through the water ports that I see.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: texas swede on March 17, 2020, 11:29:59 AM
Thanks guys,
You are the best. My 67, #1317 was scheduled and built the same day at San Jose on January 31, 1967.
What cast and assembly date code ranges would the engine need.
Texas Swede
That probably means all of the parts were there to build it immediately. Depends on the combination going into it? A 4 spd, non-air, non emissions would probably be the easiest.
Shelby completion dates on the automatics with air show some big differences between build dates and completion dates. The presumption is something was missing to complete the car?
I would think from about Christmas to New Years day would be perfect for your casting dates?
I've seen some of that two to three week window vary though according to the time of the year.
You just know that a block cast in May of 66 couldn't likely be in a 67 Shelby where the first build is probably in Novermber 66. That's a stretch.
Having said that though I've seen engines with what appears to be the original heads that aren't even close to having been cast at the same time. Maybe a month to six weeks apart, so I don't know what's with that other then with the FE's, never say never.
My block has the CJ webbing in it. Maybe they all should? I don't know about that?
Some sellers have claimed that there are 428 blocks without any scratch marks. At this point I'd error on the side of caution and say that is just not so. They likely are 390 blocks that have been bored out.
The 390 blocks don't have the CJ webbing either as far as i know but the world of Ford FE's is a strange one and I have often found other parts that should not exist but do.
This block has the capacity to do the 427 cross bolts on. It would be a very expensive undertaking to do at this point.
It DOES NOT have the 428 showing through the water ports that I see.
In the case of the aforementioned AC cars regardless of if GT 350 or GT500 ,evidence seems to suggest IMHO that the C7ZX marked AC compressor was to blame.
Quote from: Bob Gaines on March 17, 2020, 02:34:18 PM
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: texas swede on March 17, 2020, 11:29:59 AM
Thanks guys,
You are the best. My 67, #1317 was scheduled and built the same day at San Jose on January 31, 1967.
What cast and assembly date code ranges would the engine need.
Texas Swede
That probably means all of the parts were there to build it immediately. Depends on the combination going into it? A 4 spd, non-air, non emissions would probably be the easiest.
Shelby completion dates on the automatics with air show some big differences between build dates and completion dates. The presumption is something was missing to complete the car?
I would think from about Christmas to New Years day would be perfect for your casting dates?
I've seen some of that two to three week window vary though according to the time of the year.
You just know that a block cast in May of 66 couldn't likely be in a 67 Shelby where the first build is probably in Novermber 66. That's a stretch.
Having said that though I've seen engines with what appears to be the original heads that aren't even close to having been cast at the same time. Maybe a month to six weeks apart, so I don't know what's with that other then with the FE's, never say never.
My block has the CJ webbing in it. Maybe they all should? I don't know about that?
Some sellers have claimed that there are 428 blocks without any scratch marks. At this point I'd error on the side of caution and say that is just not so. They likely are 390 blocks that have been bored out.
The 390 blocks don't have the CJ webbing either as far as i know but the world of Ford FE's is a strange one and I have often found other parts that should not exist but do.
This block has the capacity to do the 427 cross bolts on. It would be a very expensive undertaking to do at this point.
It DOES NOT have the 428 showing through the water ports that I see.
In the case of the aforementioned AC cars regardless of if GT 350 or GT500 ,evidence seems to suggest IMHO that the C7ZX marked AC compressor was to blame.
Yea, what's different about them? They look exactly the same to me. Just the tag is different?
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 17, 2020, 10:11:34 AM
In my original block there was no A painted. However, the numbers were present at each bore in the lifter valley. They were for piston fitment on the assembly line. Because of modern cleaning processes for the block being hot tanks are all but non-existent it would be difficult to preserve paint in the valley. I am not really sure why it would be necessary.
:)
Of course it isn't necessary. I just thought it was a nice touch to keep if possible?
Bear in mind the C6ME-A is meaningless and may or may not be on every 428 block that you find. There are lots of blocks that are marked C6ME-A that were cast as 352 or 390 or 410 blocks.
The A scratch on the back and the distinctive shape of the water jacket holes at the cylinder head mounting surface is a safe way to ID a 428. You also need to know what date code you are needing. Fortunately Ford and Mercury made tens of thousands of suitable 428 blocks so they are not usually expensive or hard to find.
Quote from: texas swede on March 17, 2020, 08:47:04 AM
Hi guys,
Looking to identify a 1967 GT500 engine block:
Casting C6ME Correct ?
A letter A at the back of the block, anyone have a picture.
Thanks,
Texas Swede
A block for a 1967 Shelby GT500 would not have the extra reinforcement found on 428 blocks used in the 428CJ era. Those blocks did not exist until the fall of 1967 after Shelby had stopped making the 1967 cars.
You should see the beefy extra webbing blocks in every 1968 GT500 and GT500KR and all 1969 - 70 GT500's as well as every 1968 and later 428 engine installed in anything from a cop car to granny's 428 Marquis station wagon after the period of change over that roughly coincides with the strike at Ford in the fall of 1967.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: texas swede on March 17, 2020, 11:29:59 AM
Thanks guys,
You are the best. My 67, #1317 was scheduled and built the same day at San Jose on January 31, 1967.
What cast and assembly date code ranges would the engine need.
Texas Swede
That probably means all of the parts were there to build it immediately. Depends on the combination going into it? A 4 spd, non-air, non emissions, black interior would probably be the easiest.
Shelby completion dates on the automatics with air show some big differences between build dates and completion dates. The presumption is something was missing to complete the car?
I would think from about Christmas to New Years day would be perfect for your casting dates?
I've seen some of that two to three week window vary though according to the time of the year.
You just know that a block cast in May of 66 couldn't likely be in a 67 Shelby where the first build is probably in Novermber 66. That's a stretch.
Having said that though I've seen engines with what appears to be the original heads that aren't even close to having been cast at the same time. Maybe a month to six weeks apart, so I don't know what's with that other then with the FE's, never say never.
My block has the CJ webbing in it. Maybe they all should? I don't know about that?
Some sellers have claimed that there are 428 blocks without any scratch marks. At this point I'd error on the side of caution and say that is just not so. They likely are 390 blocks that have been bored out.
The 390 blocks don't have the CJ webbing either as far as i know but the world of Ford FE's is a strange one and I have often found other parts that should not exist but do.
This block has the capacity to do the 427 cross bolts on. It would be a very expensive undertaking to do at this point.
It DOES NOT have the 428 showing through the water ports that I see.
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 17, 2020, 04:30:42 PM
A block for a 1967 Shelby GT500 would not have the extra reinforcement found on 428 blocks used in the 428CJ era. Those blocks did not exist until the fall of 1967 after Shelby had stopped making the 1967 cars.
You should see the beefy extra webbing blocks in every 1968 GT500 and GT500KR and all 1969 - 70 GT500's as well as every 1968 and later 428 engine installed in anything from a cop car to granny's 428 Marquis station wagon after the period of change over that roughly coincides with the strike at Ford in the fall of 1967.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: texas swede on March 17, 2020, 11:29:59 AM
Thanks guys,
You are the best. My 67, #1317 was scheduled and built the same day at San Jose on January 31, 1967.
What cast and assembly date code ranges would the engine need.
Texas Swede
That probably means all of the parts were there to build it immediately. Depends on the combination going into it? A 4 spd, non-air, non emissions, black interior would probably be the easiest.
Shelby completion dates on the automatics with air show some big differences between build dates and completion dates. The presumption is something was missing to complete the car?
I would think from about Christmas to New Years day would be perfect for your casting dates?
I've seen some of that two to three week window vary though according to the time of the year.
You just know that a block cast in May of 66 couldn't likely be in a 67 Shelby where the first build is probably in Novermber 66. That's a stretch.
Having said that though I've seen engines with what appears to be the original heads that aren't even close to having been cast at the same time. Maybe a month to six weeks apart, so I don't know what's with that other then with the FE's, never say never.
My block has the CJ webbing in it. Maybe they all should? I don't know about that?
Some sellers have claimed that there are 428 blocks without any scratch marks. At this point I'd error on the side of caution and say that is just not so. They likely are 390 blocks that have been bored out.
The 390 blocks don't have the CJ webbing either as far as i know but the world of Ford FE's is a strange one and I have often found other parts that should not exist but do.
This block has the capacity to do the 427 cross bolts on. It would be a very expensive undertaking to do at this point.
It DOES NOT have the 428 showing through the water ports that I see.
Well, that is a picture of my block and it definitely has the web reinforcing.
The Cobra Jet Registry states that "A" scratch blocks from November '66 to May '67 have the reinforcing.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-block
If that's not the reinforcing on my block, then what are those bumps and trusses called?
My car, # 1317 was a 402F package, i.e. 4_speed with Thermactor.
I may be looking for a correct 428 and RUG-S 4-speed as my car has a 289 HiPo
with a HEH-BX transmission in it now.
Texas Swede
Quote from: 2112 on March 17, 2020, 10:42:35 AM
+1 what do the water passage holes on the deck look like?
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 17, 2020, 04:25:05 PM
Bear in mind the C6ME-A is meaningless and may or may not be on every 428 block that you find. There are lots of blocks that are marked C6ME-A that were cast as 352 or 390 or 410 blocks.
The A scratch on the back and the distinctive shape of the water jacket holes at the cylinder head mounting surface is a safe way to ID a 428. You also need to know what date code you are needing. Fortunately Ford and Mercury made tens of thousands of suitable 428 blocks so they are not usually expensive or hard to find.
Info here on 428 blocks.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-block
Quote from: Vcode on March 18, 2020, 06:26:34 AM
Info here on 428 blocks.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-block
That information is already posted in reply #15, if you read it?
None of your photos show the reinforced webbing found in 428CJ - era 428 blocks. If your block has that it's an exception rather than a typical thing to see in 428 blocks dated earlier than say October 1967, well into the 1968 model year.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 17, 2020, 04:30:42 PM
A block for a 1967 Shelby GT500 would not have the extra reinforcement found on 428 blocks used in the 428CJ era. Those blocks did not exist until the fall of 1967 after Shelby had stopped making the 1967 cars.
You should see the beefy extra webbing blocks in every 1968 GT500 and GT500KR and all 1969 - 70 GT500's as well as every 1968 and later 428 engine installed in anything from a cop car to granny's 428 Marquis station wagon after the period of change over that roughly coincides with the strike at Ford in the fall of 1967.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: texas swede on March 17, 2020, 11:29:59 AM
Thanks guys,
You are the best. My 67, #1317 was scheduled and built the same day at San Jose on January 31, 1967.
What cast and assembly date code ranges would the engine need.
Texas Swede
That probably means all of the parts were there to build it immediately. Depends on the combination going into it? A 4 spd, non-air, non emissions, black interior would probably be the easiest.
Shelby completion dates on the automatics with air show some big differences between build dates and completion dates. The presumption is something was missing to complete the car?
I would think from about Christmas to New Years day would be perfect for your casting dates?
I've seen some of that two to three week window vary though according to the time of the year.
You just know that a block cast in May of 66 couldn't likely be in a 67 Shelby where the first build is probably in Novermber 66. That's a stretch.
Having said that though I've seen engines with what appears to be the original heads that aren't even close to having been cast at the same time. Maybe a month to six weeks apart, so I don't know what's with that other then with the FE's, never say never.
My block has the CJ webbing in it. Maybe they all should? I don't know about that?
Some sellers have claimed that there are 428 blocks without any scratch marks. At this point I'd error on the side of caution and say that is just not so. They likely are 390 blocks that have been bored out.
The 390 blocks don't have the CJ webbing either as far as i know but the world of Ford FE's is a strange one and I have often found other parts that should not exist but do.
This block has the capacity to do the 427 cross bolts on. It would be a very expensive undertaking to do at this point.
It DOES NOT have the 428 showing through the water ports that I see.
Well, that is a picture of my block and it definitely has the web reinforcing.
The Cobra Jet Registry states that "A" scratch blocks from November '66 to May '67 have the reinforcing.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-block
If that's not the reinforcing on my block, then what are those bumps and trusses called?
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 18, 2020, 08:49:21 AM
None of your photos show the reinforced webbing found in 428CJ - era 428 blocks. If your block has that it's an exception rather than a typical thing to see in 428 blocks dated earlier than say October 1967, well into the 1968 model year.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 17, 2020, 04:30:42 PM
A block for a 1967 Shelby GT500 would not have the extra reinforcement found on 428 blocks used in the 428CJ era. Those blocks did not exist until the fall of 1967 after Shelby had stopped making the 1967 cars.
You should see the beefy extra webbing blocks in every 1968 GT500 and GT500KR and all 1969 - 70 GT500's as well as every 1968 and later 428 engine installed in anything from a cop car to granny's 428 Marquis station wagon after the period of change over that roughly coincides with the strike at Ford in the fall of 1967.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: texas swede on March 17, 2020, 11:29:59 AM
Thanks guys,
You are the best. My 67, #1317 was scheduled and built the same day at San Jose on January 31, 1967.
What cast and assembly date code ranges would the engine need.
Texas Swede
That probably means all of the parts were there to build it immediately. Depends on the combination going into it? A 4 spd, non-air, non emissions, black interior would probably be the easiest.
Shelby completion dates on the automatics with air show some big differences between build dates and completion dates. The presumption is something was missing to complete the car?
I would think from about Christmas to New Years day would be perfect for your casting dates?
I've seen some of that two to three week window vary though according to the time of the year.
You just know that a block cast in May of 66 couldn't likely be in a 67 Shelby where the first build is probably in Novermber 66. That's a stretch.
Having said that though I've seen engines with what appears to be the original heads that aren't even close to having been cast at the same time. Maybe a month to six weeks apart, so I don't know what's with that other then with the FE's, never say never.
My block has the CJ webbing in it. Maybe they all should? I don't know about that?
Some sellers have claimed that there are 428 blocks without any scratch marks. At this point I'd error on the side of caution and say that is just not so. They likely are 390 blocks that have been bored out.
The 390 blocks don't have the CJ webbing either as far as i know but the world of Ford FE's is a strange one and I have often found other parts that should not exist but do.
This block has the capacity to do the 427 cross bolts on. It would be a very expensive undertaking to do at this point.
It DOES NOT have the 428 showing through the water ports that I see.
Well, that is a picture of my block and it definitely has the web reinforcing.
The Cobra Jet Registry states that "A" scratch blocks from November '66 to May '67 have the reinforcing.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-block
If that's not the reinforcing on my block, then what are those bumps and trusses called?
So you are saying that the cobrajet.org/id-block, listing of "A" scratch blocks cast from November '66 to May of '67 with the reinforcing is incorrect?
I covered the casting numbers out of the gate. There are only a couple of castings that are absolute which aren't identifiers for the 428. The water jackets also don't apply to earlier 428s. Sadly, many have been less than enchanted after purchasing a 428 to find it's a 390. Even the scratch doesn't absolutely guarantee a 428. The bore is about the only thing that is certain. What a conundrum, huh?
The photos directly below this statement are what can be used to ID the later C scratch 428 blocks. From what we can tell the change date was perhaps late September 1967 or early October 1967. Again well after any 1967 Shelby GT500 had already been built.
Quote 428CJ Component ID page - "One of the most telling clues can be found inside the engine. Thanks to Bill Lewis for the images!" - End Quote
A scratch 428blocks - all the ones I have ever seen - do not have this additional webbing found in the main bearing supports.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 18, 2020, 09:48:14 AM
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 18, 2020, 08:49:21 AM
None of your photos show the reinforced webbing found in 428CJ - era 428 blocks. If your block has that it's an exception rather than a typical thing to see in 428 blocks dated earlier than say October 1967, well into the 1968 model year.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 05:45:41 PM
Quote from: Royce Peterson on March 17, 2020, 04:30:42 PM
A block for a 1967 Shelby GT500 would not have the extra reinforcement found on 428 blocks used in the 428CJ era. Those blocks did not exist until the fall of 1967 after Shelby had stopped making the 1967 cars.
You should see the beefy extra webbing blocks in every 1968 GT500 and GT500KR and all 1969 - 70 GT500's as well as every 1968 and later 428 engine installed in anything from a cop car to granny's 428 Marquis station wagon after the period of change over that roughly coincides with the strike at Ford in the fall of 1967.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 17, 2020, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: texas swede on March 17, 2020, 11:29:59 AM
Thanks guys,
You are the best. My 67, #1317 was scheduled and built the same day at San Jose on January 31, 1967.
What cast and assembly date code ranges would the engine need.
Texas Swede
That probably means all of the parts were there to build it immediately. Depends on the combination going into it? A 4 spd, non-air, non emissions, black interior would probably be the easiest.
Shelby completion dates on the automatics with air show some big differences between build dates and completion dates. The presumption is something was missing to complete the car?
I would think from about Christmas to New Years day would be perfect for your casting dates?
I've seen some of that two to three week window vary though according to the time of the year.
You just know that a block cast in May of 66 couldn't likely be in a 67 Shelby where the first build is probably in Novermber 66. That's a stretch.
Having said that though I've seen engines with what appears to be the original heads that aren't even close to having been cast at the same time. Maybe a month to six weeks apart, so I don't know what's with that other then with the FE's, never say never.
My block has the CJ webbing in it. Maybe they all should? I don't know about that?
Some sellers have claimed that there are 428 blocks without any scratch marks. At this point I'd error on the side of caution and say that is just not so. They likely are 390 blocks that have been bored out.
The 390 blocks don't have the CJ webbing either as far as i know but the world of Ford FE's is a strange one and I have often found other parts that should not exist but do.
This block has the capacity to do the 427 cross bolts on. It would be a very expensive undertaking to do at this point.
It DOES NOT have the 428 showing through the water ports that I see.
Well, that is a picture of my block and it definitely has the web reinforcing.
The Cobra Jet Registry states that "A" scratch blocks from November '66 to May '67 have the reinforcing.
https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-block
If that's not the reinforcing on my block, then what are those bumps and trusses called?
So you are saying that the cobrajet.org/id-block, listing of "A" scratch blocks cast from November '66 to May of '67 with the reinforcing is incorrect?
I agree with Royce. Nothing with reinforcements before late 1967 ( 68 model year blocks.) It seems like ALL of the late and service blocks have the extra webbing though.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 18, 2020, 11:52:01 AM
I agree with Royce. Nothing with reinforcements before late 1967 ( 68 model year blocks.) It seems like ALL of the late and service blocks have the extra webbing though.
That's still only half an answer. You say that the info on https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-block, is wrong also?
It's half-answer Wednesday. I'll address the other half tomorrow. I was saying the other forum is the 428CJ forum. They would at best be mid to late year production.
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 18, 2020, 03:07:25 PM
It's half-answer Wednesday. I'll address the other half tomorrow. I was saying the other forum is the 428CJ forum. They would at best be mid to late year production.
Yes. Don't overwork yourself. Continue to interview those coffee holders.
I am a great admirer of Scott and Chris. They do a lot of great things. I don't disagree with what they say but it's worded in a way that I would not word it. It's got you convinced that you see something that I don't see. There's way too much information about things that happened before and after the 428CJ period of time. That ultimately just causes confusion.
Quote from: shelbydoug on March 18, 2020, 02:59:28 PM
Quote from: The Going Thing on March 18, 2020, 11:52:01 AM
I agree with Royce. Nothing with reinforcements before late 1967 ( 68 model year blocks.) It seems like ALL of the late and service blocks have the extra webbing though.
That's still only half an answer. You say that the info on https://www.428cobrajet.org/id-block, is wrong also?
Here are pictures of the later reinforced webbing and the earlier blocks without. I hope the referenced pictures clear up confusion.
Well I'd post my detailed pics but you have already dismissed it as a freak, so what's the point of going through the effort?
It doesn't matter to me. It is what it is.
If you have the reinforcements that's great. First one I've seen early. I put them up for identification for those who may not understand the discussion.