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Messages - shelbymann1970

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My 2 car garage.

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I got to thinking who owns what. So I can attach a car to a forum member. NBD if you don't own one as enthusiasm is the mantra of SAAC.  Also in the description a brief history if you like like is it "papered" in MCA, SAAC, Team Shelby. Thanks in advance for all who participate. Almost like a virtual Shelby meet.
 I'll go first. My vert I have owned since 1985. MCA concours driven gold in 2003 but like it says at the bottom "not any more" for a few reasons. I restored it myself except for outer paint(I painted the underside trunk and engine bay) and top. Drivetrain original and detailed with new seals. Interior mostly original. Gary

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 16, 2021, 12:41:53 PM »
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary
Read Scott's post above:



Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information).  There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't?
Why don't you reread my post. I am NOT alleging a rebody. Can you read English? I was pointing out how to spot out inconsistencies as date coded sheet metal to spot a REBODY. Yeah, I'll report your lack of understanding and accusations!


There is no lack of understanding here, your diatribe on car based on your observation and then statements on the lower value of re-bodies is called "context".   
Read his asking what to do in the red. My answers and plausible reasons. Most rebodies come from rust free cars. This car appears to have had apron work done which generally would make no sense on a rebody.  I know what I meant when I posted and was trying to help. You are trying to put word or accusations on me and that comes from your last of ability to understand when someone tells you what they were doing and you cannot comprehend that. SMH. I will type SLOWLY for you.... I am not accusing this car of being a rebody. I could only even come to  an  understanding like that by physically inspecting the car or from date codes given to me from a car. I have not seen one or done the other. SMH

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 16, 2021, 11:50:05 AM »
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary

Gary,

Please take a minute to read the tilt-away portion of the comments.  I learned so much from that experience and immediately documented there is a small divot right where that switch should be.  Under the paint.  The response by one of the BaT commenters seemed on target and made sense.  They are complicated contraptions to keep working and many have elected to replace them with tilt only versions. 

Take note of my initial response time of 11:09 pm Sept. 1st.  Then maybe read the exchange afterwards and through the next morning for additional insight to how I respond.

With regard to date coded panels.  Tell me where to look, and what panels you found unusual.  The car hasn't left our facility yet and I am curious.  Since I personally Dryce cleaned the entire underside, I was very impressed with what I saw.  Please consider also that I trained people in paintless dent removal in the late 1980s and have a keen eye still.  Even at 59. 

But mostly, I want to thank you for taking the time to communicate with me constructively.
 
I took some of your pics and circled the areas of sheet metal you can easily check now or on future cars you may purchase and  what some here were talking about. I can post the pics or send them to you in an email Scott. Your call. Can't post pics in messages. You can message me your email and I'll contact you. Just trying to help and to be clear I am NOT saying it was a rebody like 427 Hunter accused me of. Gary

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 16, 2021, 11:44:29 AM »
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary



Alleging it's a re-body is a pretty heavy accusation on a public forum with no proof. You even directed people to this discussion on the BAT comment section below the auction. The seller posted a photo of the vin under the tag prior to restoration, and that car appears to have a long time known history in SAAC (1795 is in my 1987 registry with the owners information).  There are several date codes that can be seen in the photo's, are you saying they don't match the production date of the car? Do you know something we don't?
Why don't you reread my post. I am NOT alleging a rebody. Can you read English? I was pointing out how to spot out inconsistencies as date coded sheet metal to spot a REBODY.

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 16, 2021, 11:27:18 AM »
Thanks, others may be at odds with me.  But I am not with them.  Everyone has something to contribute, how that is offered is sometimes off putting. 

Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective on the matter.  If you put yourself in any person's position be it a broker, dealer, family member, or not passionate corporate seller, you can certainly see the issue here.  No definitive source or process to pursue, unquantified costs needing case by case negotiation and potential availability challenges of multiple persons.  Some more than others on both points, and the difficulty of bias toward or against anything or anyone. Then there is the inter-member challenges where a person is chosen but some in the community question their knowledge or assessments.

It's a minefield. And regardless of your efforts over the past 45 years as a total gearhead and passionate brand person, your integrity WILL be challenged. 

 :-\
there is the saying "jack of all trades ,master of none". That could easily be put forth in the  car industry. You are a dealer. I have seen some of the cars you have sold on BaT and that is just a small snapshot of decades in your business. I don't know you but because of your time and the  spectrum of cars you sell you know quality but maybe do not know the ins and outs of every marque you sell. Here, you are dealing with those who are mostly geared to one or 2 marques that they have educated themselves on for decades. I have owned around 30 first Gen Mustangs the most being 1969. I know a lot about 1969s. I have owned 2 first gen Camaros and until recently knew a little about them but gaining more knowledge through BaT on them. I don't need an expert to buy a 69 or 70 Mustang or Shelby but might for a 69 Z/28 or a 67 Vette. I, for one, am not at odds with you. Nor am I with the buyer. Covid  and Crypto it appears has brought a buying frenzy in the last year. Cars that brought money we would have never seen a few years ago. That's the market these days. Gary

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 16, 2021, 11:02:14 AM »
I'm going to take another constructive shot at this...

What should a less knowledgeable but as passionate Shelby seller or representative of a seller do specifically to understand any car they are offering to the general market beforehand? 

Please do not just say call someone who knows.  I tried that...

A person accepted by the best here who are willing to get paid to physically come inspect a car.   
Can they be objective about a car without disgust for previous work or choices.  There's no need for emotions and opinions, just facts that can be supported with history and knowledge.

I was willing on this previous car, and am willing in the near future to try again.  With the caveat that what is important to me is rarely as important to others.  Which applies to everyone IMHO
There is one expert who is local to me in the Detroit area who has appraised Cobras, GT40s, Shelbys through SAAC. He also appraised the 2016 LeMans winning Ford GT for Ford motor company. getting back to the KR you sold. Many who have owned or have contributed here could possibly determine why some things were like they were on your car. Rebodies: There are many panels inside the car that date codes can be read easily. The sheet metal on any car should  have date codes that coincide with the cars build and other cars built at the same time. Your car missing the hole for tilt switch should be investigated. Was that A pillar replaced because of rust/accident? The hole filled in? Why no holes in the front apron for the tilt cannister. Again, was it a replaced panel? Some of the spot welds I saw tend to make me think some aprons were replaced. Buck tag never mounted on DS and no hole on pass side for it. If a rebody why would someone use a car with bad aprons? if indeed the welds I saw point to replacement aprons(date codes on those if present?). As a person who took the basket case shell of a 68 Shelby and did an investigation to see if it was a real car I have been through that before. Oh, Yeah, the knee pad thing is interesting. Again, date coded sheet metal as easy as looking at some of the trunk inner supports could confirm if the date codes are with in the realm of the car build. hope this helps. FYI there are a "FEW" rebodied early Shelbys running around and documented by SAAC. They bring a fraction of what a non rebodied car brings. Gary

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 16, 2021, 03:53:17 AM »
OK, now you got me started. I consider J. Spengle a good friend. He has helped me tremendously on my 65.If everyone was like Jeff it would be a great place. So what is with the attitude Becker? I will be happy to give you my credentials.I own 2 68 KR s since 1972 and have been into Shelbyís since 1969.How long have you been into these cars? I donít remember your name 50 yrs. ago. I will be happy to tell you everything wrong with this car. I donít give opinions but facts. We can take this PM .
Stephen Becker has been a used Shelby(mostly) seller for as long as I can remember him. So anything negative talking about car sales could affect his business. That would be my take. Just my .02C

From what I see and know of Stephen, he seems to be a straight shooter, he only deals with quality. Will not touch a car with bad history. In other words, if you buy something from him, IT IS RIGHT. (MY opinion)

I probably was into Shelbys before a lot of people here, so what? Being a SAAC member or not really does not matter. I would bet there are many out there who have nice cars that could care less how long they were involved. Take a pill, people, and allow opinions to be expressed.
Let me be clear here on my post you quoted me: I was responding to a guy who didn't know who Stephen was it appears. I basically said who he was(longtime Shelby dealer). I've seen his cars for sale for decades. Talked to him before. Do not TAKE my post as a negative comment against Steve. It isn't.  The second part is true to any classic car dealer when it comes to sales. Gary

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Up For Auction / Re: Can this be explained to me?
« on: September 15, 2021, 05:27:45 AM »
In 2009 I listed both my 73 Mustang vert and 68 Shelby on Ebay with BIN. I had to sell one. It was funny seeing the very lowball offers from dealers. My 73(which sold the 3rd time on within 2 hours for my BIN price of 16K) I had a dealer first offer me 8K then 9K then 10K. I told him to "go away". They were not BIN "or make offer".  Ditto for my 68. Bottom feeders. Kept my 68 and enjoyed it another 4 years until I bought my 69 SCJ Mach1. 68 Shelby had to go(room for 2 classics only). 4 times on Ebay and selling it the 4th time after auction. Again BIN and had an offer in my wheelhouse so I accepted. Ebay pissed me off on their "rules" so I effectively sold it under a brand new account in my wife's name with zero feedback(referred watchers to prior auctions under my regular Ebay handle). Car went to France.
 On my 73 they pulled my first auction with a few hours left and the car was close to the reserve(went BIN after that) because of "rules violation". Seems someone complained that I used 71 and 72 in my ad(common practice for 71-3 owners). I called on the phone to ask why the auction was pulled and a live person told me that. I then proceeded to list about a dozen other auctioned doing the SAME thing that were live. None were ever pulled. I am not a fan of Ebay and will never sell another car on there with BaT around now. Heck I hardly ever go there anymore except my saved searches(a few) for certain parts. I doubt I'll sell parts anymore on Ebay either with their total cost including PayPal for sold items. I'll try FB first.  Gary

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 15, 2021, 05:00:05 AM »
As stated above the car went for 2X retail......something is up. Plain and simple and I do not care if that hurts feelings, I would not consider any car "over restored" if it is not right in places as mentioned, yet because the paint is better than it was from the factory it is called over restored...Then my Boss is over restored also? Yet it has repro floor pan, torque boxes, rear frame rails, front frame rails, wheel houses, etc.....will bring more than it is worth? where do I go??? Let see a Boss today is lucky to retrieve 70K, where do I go for my 140K?
One reason why I like Graveyard Carz. Mark "over restores"  the cars(have you ever seen the quality of an original 60-70s Mopar? ) but he makes them as close to assy line correct. To me not being anything close to a mopar expert it appears that that marque has a LOT BETTER quality repo parts than the Ford community as most repo parts for Mustangs are junk. Been there, returned that(repo parts) bought NOS or excellent used. As has been stated this car to be over restored would mean a concours correct gold car but points taken off for better paint. This car is eye candy and probably why it broke the bank. I think too many people under estimate the power of  perfect or near perfect black paint on a car-especially a Shelby. Again, JMHO and why? Studying the market and dealing with an appraisal friend I believe when I sold my 68  I got 5-10K more for it than I would have in it's original highland green and my car wasn't even a factory black car in 2013.  Gary

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 15, 2021, 04:52:22 AM »
I'd say it doesn't matter to most of us like me who watch in amusement that someone with that type of disposable income isn't smart enough to do some due diligence on a car they are buying.................

The issue or problem is this can "hurt" all of us and the hobby. We all hopefully understand that the wealth are likely driving the value of most of our cars and when one or more feel that they were sold something that they were not fully aware of they aren't happy, and he/she tells a few of their friends and they tell others. Next thing you know they are buying art, sail boats or that third or fourth home.

Memories of a poor purchase (will leave it at that) can last as long or longer as memories of an enjoyable one.  Many of us can recall examples of this taking place - some of refer to those as "that guy" incidents

Yes we can't lead all the horses the horses to water nor make them drink but we also can't bring that horse back to life after they have perished from the lack of water.

If the buyer is as informed as possible personally at that point I agree - His money and choice but have not seen anything to suggest that so far. We'll see if and when they show up here
I will respectably disagree in that these are few and far between like about a decade ago a 70 Boss 302 popped at BJ for 195K and a better car the high 80s. Bob G commented that he gave his opinion the high 80s car to the buyer before the auction that that was the better car. Both orange. Boss 302 values have not been affected by that IMHO.

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 15, 2021, 04:48:18 AM »
OK, now you got me started. I consider J. Spengle a good friend. He has helped me tremendously on my 65.If everyone was like Jeff it would be a great place. So what is with the attitude Becker? I will be happy to give you my credentials.I own 2 68 KR s since 1972 and have been into Shelbyís since 1969.How long have you been into these cars? I donít remember your name 50 yrs. ago. I will be happy to tell you everything wrong with this car. I donít give opinions but facts. We can take this PM .
Stephen Becker has been a used Shelby(mostly) seller for as long as I can remember him. So anything negative talking about car sales could affect his business. That would be my take. Just my .02C

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 14, 2021, 01:29:57 PM »




Why should any of this really matter to anyone but the buyer who has the economic power, was willing, able and paid the big bucks?
I'd say it doesn't matter to most of us like me who watch in amusement that someone with that type of disposable income isn't smart enough to do some due diligence on a car they are buying. I'd think most made their money(well over 50 percent of the top one percent inherited their $$) they didn't make it by not researching or educating themselves on their money investments whether it is tangible or intangible assets.

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Up For Auction / Re: Black 1968 GT500KR on BAT
« on: September 14, 2021, 01:26:09 PM »
My pet peeve is when cars hit a home run on BaT there are those chiming in "WELL BOUGHT!!!". I think we have some on the KR. Or at the beginning of the auction some playing up a car like its the best thing since sliced bread. I missed a lot on this KR but didn't really critique this car either to really notice the tilt stuff.

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