SAAC Forum

Quote from: SChatman on December 13, 2021, 11:45:55 PM
Thanks, that's exactly what I needed!

over the decades I have had a few clocks that didn't work. Back in the 80s I learned to clean the clocks and use a light oil on the gears to lube. I'd do that and blow the clock out again. I have yet to have a clock not work after doing that AND cleaning the contact points. In both my 69 cars the clock works and they are original over 50 years old. I have seen some with the burnt contacts like Bob has said. I got a clock project I will get to in the future as my friend just gave me a 69-70 clock.

Quote from: 69 GT350 Vert on December 13, 2021, 01:14:53 PM
I had vacuum ornametal restore my instrument and clock bezels as well as my console inert on my 69 shelby back in 2017.  The paint and finish work turned out very good.  However, he failed to fix the broken plastic tabs on my console insert.  I installed a quartz movement on my clock myself and it has worked perfectly for at least 3 years. 

https://www.instrument-specialties.com/ restored my console gauges and did a great job.  They have the exact artwork for the Faria gauges and use the correct greyish blue background color.  At least they did on mine.

So you had a good job done by vacuum ornamental here in Mi? Thanks. Gary

Quote from: CharlesTurner on December 13, 2021, 02:32:00 PM

Quote from: KR Convertible on December 13, 2021, 01:31:53 PM
This is just a guess.  Is it possible that the threaded pieces were oven brazed.  The washers look welded.

I think those were spot welded.

As a person who has welded for our die operations for a short window of time but have dealt with details being welded for over 40 years by my journeymen Tool and Die Welders I can say that these caps-like the ones on my 70- are welded as in a filler "like"  material was used and the washers with the filler material were liquified in the "bonding" process. You can see the edge burn off on the washers. One of the nuances when I learned to weld tool trim steels is to not have an edge burn off where the weld ends you still have an edge with the virgin steel. Too hot welding and stopping creates a melted edge on the virgin material right where you stopped. Why I usually tig welded and not arc or mig. In todays environment we are going towards laser welding and hardening for our tool and die operations. We will get a new machine in our facility by next summer. Again I'm not an expert welder but one who knows enough to be dangerous and honestly have never seen the process of brazing like has been mentioned by PBF777 

Thanks guys as I never saw that on my 70 caps for the 2 70s I had owned or my 68. When repainted they came out great. A nice set and they are pit free.

Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 12, 2021, 11:47:08 AM
They are not typicall brazed but I have seen a mess like that before on various years of what appear as unmolested cars.

Thanks. I do not know if the paint I blasted off was original on these caps but they are really nice sans the braze rod mess. Gary

Quote from: Bob Gaines on December 12, 2021, 11:29:41 AM
Washers are brazed on.

so someone got messy with the brazing?  Also they are in bare metal and those welded areas are definitely welding rod and not brazing rod.

Here is something weird. While blasting these caps this was the end result. The caps are pretty nice but have what appears to be copper on them. At first I thought it was bondo but when I filed it it was metal. The areas on the one cap where I filed it is misleading as it looks white but it isn't. Any thoughts?  Gary

Quote from: J_Speegle on December 11, 2021, 01:41:05 PM

Quote from: shelbymann1970 on December 11, 2021, 07:27:15 AM
With all the sleuthing over the years has there even been a data base with cars actual build dates along with the corresponding "tag" dates for components like engine, trans, sheet metal. If not this could be an important look into Ford's practices. Problems etc. Of course on untouched "documented numbers matching cars"..................

Yes at least a number of people have collected and organized this sort of information for their use. Sometimes they include allot more data points than just what you listed. Surprisingly some started recording data back in the 60's-70's for certain types of cars

Remember that if your comparing Boss 302's built at Dearborn (often not identified in those discussions) the date spreads really IMHO don't apply to your situation.

agree 100 percent. anomalies are generally plant specific. I do not think you will find "MADE DE MEXICO" stamped  on a latch support on a Dearborn car but you will on a SJ car. Have you seen that Jeff? it was on a SJ R-code Mach1 I restored 30 years ago.

This may help? 1970 but no reason not to believe they are not the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGPR8S15lBU

Quote from: Tired Sheep on December 11, 2021, 08:52:29 AM
I read all your posts.  What I see is a lot of hostility, because no one that responded in this thread will support your agenda.

LOL what I see from you is a person who appears not to read and wants to start crap. No hostility. It isn't my car. Told my friend I'd try and get to the bottom of it. You have added nothing here but opinions. Those who know me know that I am diligent on trying to uncover everything and not assume anything and I'm NOT a hostile person. Too bad SAAC 1.0 isn't around as I have had lively discussions on 69-70 Shelbys where experts have told me I was wrong only to have info come out(period pics and those who did things are GREAT resources) to prove I was right and have seen others change their stance and others have been quiet from their initial  "that wasn't the  way it was" posts. It is no wonder others have left this forum. I will continue on this journey and if it bothers you as it appears to do just turn off the notifications to it. Gary

Quote from: Tired Sheep on December 11, 2021, 07:36:27 AM
I agree not impossible. But, not likely...

You originally asked what other people thought. Now you're trying very hard to persuade them.

Find some other examples of a super tight window. I am sure you can find cars from the same DSO. They will have automatic transmissions and there is a high probability they will be originals.

did you read my post and see I asked if anyone had charted documenting numbers matching engines and trans compared to the dates of the cars along with sheet metal? I also mentioned that on the B2 forum they found blocks that were used months later. I'm not trying to persuade anyone here. I'm just trying to find out all possible scenarios and like with the numbers someone here could have a tight time frame or a chart showing patterns of built components to car assy dates. Bottom line the tag was stamped on a Monday and car was built on a Wednesday assuming all records are correct. That is why now I want to find other C4 equipped 302 Mustangs from Metuchin or Dearborn with trans codes VS Build dates. It is easy to DISMISS something than to do a lot of hard work to come to a more accurate conclusion wouldn't you say? I know we are talking 1968 here but working in the auto manufacturing arena since 1985 our components do not sit around. They get built crated/racked and moved to the docks where trucks show up every day for shipment. At one point right out of bankruptcy I drove a HiLO for 3 weeks and our assembled components I would bar code tag with a date code and I would move them to the docks and stack the racks. Parts were generally gone the same day out the door. My leader loaded the trucks. We would hydroform Corvette frame rails and ship the same day or load on a rail car but in those we were stock piling since they were moving the rail operations to Canada so were were building more than they needed so they had stock for the transition period of the dies and stamping process to be finished in Oshawa. What becomes difficult is if the assy plants rotated their stock of components as it came in the door.

Quote from: J_Speegle on December 10, 2021, 05:18:45 PM

Quote from: CharlesTurner on December 10, 2021, 02:13:12 PM

Quote from: J_Speegle on December 10, 2021, 02:05:48 PM
Wasn't the plant in the south somewhere?  Don't have that document handy at the moment

Sharonville, OH

Thanks for the clarification. Knew you would remember

Quote from: Special Ed on December 10, 2021, 03:02:03 PM
I dont recall c6 trans tags being date coded but  a trans serial# instead i thought so was c4 trans tags date coded  as that tag is a B  (not an 8 ) in front of c11   so was that trans a c8zp-b id #

Here is an example from a 68 Mustang Shows the month and day of month and printed in reverse from earlier 65-66 tags

With all the sleuthing over the years has there even been a data base with cars actual build dates along with the corresponding "tag" dates for components like engine, trans, sheet metal. If not this could be an important look into Ford's practices. Problems etc. Of course on untouched "documented numbers matching cars". On the B2 forum they have found a few cars with blocks cast months before the car was built. What about components that are built a few days before car assy  when parts become bottle necks in the system. A factory with a shortage of 351C 2V engines in 1970 might see engine tag assy dates real close to the car's assy. I have heard stories of the 351C  2V in 1970 that is why I mention this. My friend owns a 70 Mach1 H-code original paint interior etc survivor with the 2V Cleveland in it. Just had it built at Roush and pulled 330HP on the dyno with a holley 2V on it. Jack showed up saw the performance and asked what was in the engine(cam pistons), what was done to the heads and asked them to use an adapter and put a 4 V on it. Pulled a lot more HP out of that engine. The way the heads were rebuilt, new guides installed and the ports "flash" ported was really interesting as it was done on a high tech laser machine and it did the job real fast. That is why Roush's quoted price to build the engine was much less than other "old" tech engine shops in the area when dealing with the canted valves.

Quote from: CharlesTurner on December 10, 2021, 12:55:58 PM
I checked some other C4 tags and that date code is 8C11, would be followed by another number, assuming a shift code.  So, yes, March 11, 1968.

If the actual build date of the car was March 13, that would be very tight.

It is a 7+ hour drive from Cleveland to Metuchin for engine deliveries. Where were the trans made? There is no "8" in front of the C. There is a C8ZPB then C 1 1 then the bolt is possibly hiding a character and I'll have him pull the tag to see but appears to be a B. Even back then there was just in time deliveries. If a car is built early I would suspect more lead time on date components but if a car is built on time or late it could mean it was waiting for components and a trans is a component. Not unreal or impossible. Engine  tag says C2 but build on the engine itself is 2-27 by the assy stamp on the block. Both have the same codes on it.  Here is more fodder on the engine: The clips on the valve covers still had the BLUE paint on them. The engine appeared concours correct used dirty before it was tore down for the rebuild. The components are date coded also. Rods are Jan. He built a stroker so he kept all his original components so he has all the original rods pistons cranks and camshaft. All Ford. All date coded to a factory Feb build so I'm in my opinion it was an untouched engine and not a rebuild. This trans was specific  for a 302 Mustang only. How many 302 4V autos did they build in 1968? Next is to find the date codes on the casting. If Sharonville was the plant that produced the trans it is a 9 hour drive from that city to Metuchin.

Quote from: sc4248 on December 10, 2021, 12:07:12 PM
  Putting the finishing touches on my 69 and I'm at the restoring instrument cluster stage. I know that I need a new ammeter silkscreen. Is the tach guy the only person does that. Would you use the Scott Drake instrument and clock panels, or would you have the originals restored? If restored, by whom? Anybody use the quartz clock that's available? How about instrument lights?  Thanks

I'd have them restored but cannot recommend anyone right now as I haven't had any done since 2008. Ray Azcue did my 68 Shelby along with the woodgrain and did a fantastic job but  he retired soon after but I made him the templates to do the painting after vacuum metalizing(chroming) the 69 clusters. I heard over the years his brother Tony took over. Ray was in Texas. I have a friend who is getting his cluster done right now locally and When he gets it back I can get you reports on how it came out. There are a few in our area and this might be the one he is using. https://www.vacuumorna-metal.com/content/restoration. They show 1969 dash pieces in their slide show.

Quote from: CharlesTurner on December 10, 2021, 11:47:31 AM
C 11 is the date, so March 11... assume '68.  This lines up with the April castings on the block.

I'm not sure we will ever know for sure why those numbers are stamped there.  Maybe some other cars will turn up with something similar... and doesn't have to be Shelby's... Mustangs built around the time period would probably yield more samples to compare.

Thanks Charles. mid to late Feb castings on the block, heads.  March 2 on the engine tag(Feb 27 assy stamp on block). Trans tag is stamped march 11 or is that March 1 and the 1 is something else after that? March 11 would be 2 days  before car was assembled in Metuchin(Marti says March 13th). Too close? Are there cast dates on Automatic trans? While some seem to think I am missing some point I wonder if there are other cars out there and others are afraid to even bring it to light thinking they might have gotten the same responses I have gotten from a few here. Gary