SAAC Forum

Quote from: Bill on January 04, 2024, 08:21:30 AM
For the street, I would not suggest a HiPo shift kit, while it firms the shifts up, it may ruin the experience for your friend since he is driving it strictly on the street. Especially given the stock "R" servo already offering a firmer "feel" while shifting gears
https://www.raybestospowertrain.com/transmission-rebuild-kits/az36008a
Call them to confirm, but this is what a good friend just used for his 428CJ 69 Mach I and he and his loving wife both love the end results.


Bill

Plus one on the Raybestos kit.


John

Cory, Cory, Cory,
Why do you have to put those out where an addict can see them?


John

The Holley List 1850-2 is a Universal Off Road Carburetor, when I worked for a speed shop back in the late 1970s we sold them by the pallet load.
The original List 1850-A and 1850-AAS was used in the 1958-1961 Lincoln with the 430 engine, also the 1958-1959 Mercury on the 430 engine and the 1959-1961 Thunderbird 430 engine.


John

Quote from: FL SAAC on November 03, 2023, 04:00:59 PM

Quote from: 427heaven on October 31, 2023, 07:48:13 PM
Thanks Tony well wishes to you and yours... Heard the news, you guys got the 66 you were wanting, enjoy it like they were meant to be enjoyed!!!

Thank you Sir !

Meant to be driven and it will be , shame about those low miles......

You can cure low miles! More Gas needed! Go drive.


John

Quote from: shelbymann1970 on December 17, 2023, 03:56:26 PM

Quote from: JohnSlack on December 17, 2023, 02:51:16 PM
I think that the end statement that is the one that will resonate loudest is that on December 17,2023 with four days left in the auction there are still zero bids. The starting point is $350,000.00.

So not a lot of people willing at this point to jump into the pool.

The car is a really interesting, cool looking, conversation piece. It has had a lot of high end atta-boys but is still not generating the fiscal interest in the deep end of the pool.

As a car I like it, at that price point, I don't.


John

another thing people like to consider is how much of the original car is left? I saw it with original quarters done and appeared to have bodywork done as in bondo flairs at the top of the quarters. I grew up a few miles from Dearborn and have owned a lot of Mich Mustangs and in a few short years these cars were rusting out. I have owned my share of rusty Mi Mustangs to where we broke a rusty shock tower on a 69 in 1978 doing donuts and hitting the curb with the pass wheel breaking the DS shock tower(I wasn't driving nor was it my car). 1980 I owned a 44Kmile  one owner 70 with a rusted floor to the point the DS seat rocked a little. So this car being in my neck of the woods being swiss cheese when dipped decades later wouldn't surprise me. The original engine was out there but not in the car nor owned by the second owner in 1984. So how did the original engine find its way back into the car(did it?). So you have a unique 1 of 1 car but how much of the original car is there? I'm sure some buyers would be considering that also but others not? Time will tell.

I have been reading through this post without comment. I have quite a few of these same thoughts, not because I grew up surrounded by rust and cars that live on salted roads. However I have had relatives that had pick up trucks that were Swiss Cheese. I've been enjoying the banter back and forth on this particular car. It's been entertaining.

I think that the end statement that is the one that will resonate loudest is that on December 17,2023 with four days left in the auction there are still zero bids. The starting point is $350,000.00.

So not a lot of people willing at this point to jump into the pool.

The car is a really interesting, cool looking, conversation piece. It has had a lot of high end atta-boys but is still not generating the fiscal interest in the deep end of the pool.

As a car I like it, at that price point, I don't.


John

Quote from: pbf777 on December 14, 2023, 10:33:49 AM

Quote from: gt350shelb on December 12, 2023, 09:13:29 PM
The bud moore oil pan is quite  the challenge to duplicate .

Quote from: JohnSlack on December 14, 2023, 01:52:26 AM
I also have the patterns that Rich Rodeck made of all the gating.

     Always make ones' own observation as to the potential effectiveness of any "trick" oil pan, this to ones' own application; as it is not so uncommon to have pans designed for specific car and track instances and may not prove "ideal" elsewhere.   

    Scott.

Scott,
I didn't have a 1969 Team car to restore. So I searched for all the parts to build a correct 1969 T/A motor. Over the years with parts sourced from so many different people I couldn't name them all. I have all of the parts (Except for Bud Moore valve covers.) To build a complete engine. So having the correct oiling system was/is a requirement. No I'm not running the ultra-heavy T/A rods and a center counter weighted crankshaft, (Randy Gillis talked me out of that over a dozen years ago.) As gt350shelb said, "you can't see them anyway", so why carry that downside.


John

Quote from: gt350shelb on December 14, 2023, 12:58:02 PM
I think in most cases any of these pans is overkill in the vintage racing  groups/ but in being  period correct  must look the part ( what is inside  does not matter ) The ones i duplicated were correct inside and out the  bear was making the  tubing bends to match the originals .

The De-Aireator piece to me is a very complex part.


John

Quote from: gt350shelb on December 13, 2023, 10:01:39 PM

Quote from: JohnSlack on December 13, 2023, 12:50:44 AM

Quote from: gt350shelb on December 12, 2023, 09:13:29 PM
The bud moore oil pan is quite  the challenge to duplicate .

It sure is.

built 3 at one time  with an original to copy

Very nice, I have two original pans. One really nice oil pan, another damaged pan. However I also have the patterns that Rich Rodeck made of all the gating.


John

Quote from: gt350shelb on December 12, 2023, 09:13:29 PM
The bud moore oil pan is quite  the challenge to duplicate .

It sure is.

Quote from: shelbydoug on December 12, 2023, 04:00:03 PM
Thanks for posting the pictures. Interesting stuff.

I'm aware of the 351c's running in Pro Stock with the Wieand Tunnel Rams. As I recall they all ran with add on plenums under the carbs. The volume of the plenum was important.

I can see that the inter runner "passages" were a direction in that thinking. The issue would be to fit that all under the hood of the Mustang so the height available for the manifold caused the problem.

I remember talking to Randy right after he was working on one of these setups at the track. He was so frazzled that he didn't want to talk much about them. Just a couple of generalities about the set up.

I was asking him about the fuel reverson and what was done with that. He said his solution was just to provide a "plate" over the carbs that just provided a place for the fuel droplets to accumulate and then run off the engine where it wouldn't be a hazard.

I've worked with Weber 48 ida's a lot. I know the frustration and had all to do but laugh out loud about it? In the case of the "Webers" on my Pantera the solution was putting 5" tall stacks on the car. Then the plumes would stay in the stacks.

When I had the Webers on my Shelby, they were on a Cleveland, and the stacks had to be shorter then stock in order to fit under the hood.

You can still see the marks under the hood if you look closely where the flames from the carbs when starting it cold did a job on the paint.

The Pantera does not have that issue. Lots of room over the stacks in that car.

Which is why on the air cleaner lid that Kelly made for the Dual Autolite Inline Intake that we are experimenting with we added an inverted focal point for the fuel to condense on above each barrel. Randy Gillis was part of that conversation. It will be getting a taller.elelment, and going through the hood of the BOSS 302. (Using a glass hood)

shelbydoug,

As to the plug on the side of the Intake and what it's function is.....

As you will notice there was a fitting going into the side of the pan, inside the pan there is a baffle that prevents the oil from being drained onto the crankshaft (2nd Picture). There is the Holman Moody functional diagram that better explains everything and how it works to keep the pan full and the vacuum tank. The rear of the engine had a long pickup that scavenged the rear section of the pan since acceleration tried to make all the oil stay there.


John

shelbydoug,

The first picture is of two of the Dual Dominator Intakes I previously owned. The upper intake was a real early intake that came out of the big Shelby American sale when they were closing down. That intake manifold has no coolant hose attachment spigots as the coolant was being taken out of the front of the cylinder heads. (Now you know why the 1969 BOSS 302 heads have that different flat surface on the front.) That intake has no passages under the carburetor mounting surface. From my talks with Larry Ofria who had done some experimentation with that intake with Shelby American that intake made a storm of stand off above the carburetors and did not get very far. The lower intake came from New Zealand, This intake was used with spacer plates on a 351C drag car. In order to make it work better they welded up the passages under the carburetor mounting flanges, and screwed some kind of home made adapter plate on to it.

The next two pictures show the early style intake with no passages under the carburetor flanges

The fourth picture shows the passages under the carburetor flanges on the later intake. There were different size "vent" passages tried between the upper and lower carburetor passage levels. My current intake has 3/4" passages however I have seen them with no vent and also 5/8" venting.

Quote from: shelbydoug on December 12, 2023, 07:36:30 AM

Quote from: TA Coupe on December 12, 2023, 05:49:28 AM

Quote from: shelbydoug on December 11, 2023, 12:59:23 PM
The pics are appreciated by me John but how about top views?

Aren't the dual Dominators for the 69 B2 factory team car and those are serial numbered?

Here you go, here's mine.
https://imgur.com/gallery/eEcvBPr

       Roy

On your dual dominator intake, is there a plenum or runner that connects the front and rear carbs together?

The Ford Intake Manifolds never had a passage that connected to front and rear carburetors. The have been some intakes modified that have done that operation however that modification is a fail. The passages in your next question are somewhat small and are there to tune the band where the carburetors operate as Pure IR Which did not work vs. almost IR which worked better.

Quote from: shelbydoug on December 12, 2023, 07:36:30 AM
Is there a plenum under each carb or does each runner go directly to the head intake port from each individual runner like a tunnel ram intake does?

I'm going to post additional pictures which will cover that.

Quote from: shelbydoug on December 12, 2023, 07:36:30 AM
I see what appears to be a -10AN male fitting attached but is that a engine vacuum line or a crankcase breather line?

That is the crankcase breather line that would run out to a separator tank that would drain back down to a fitting on the front left side of the oil pan

Quote from: shelbydoug on December 12, 2023, 07:36:30 AM
Not to change the subject but since you seem to be familiar with some of these special Ford intakes, have you ever seen a version of your intake for a 351C with a 9.2" deck height?

That was not considered necessary for multiple reasons as the Dual Dominator intake didn't make it past the 1969 year. The Holley 4500 series Carburetors ran out of airflow on a 310 cubic inch Independent Runner engine at around 7,500 RPM. They simply did not flow enough for IR usage. I got this information directly in conversations with Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins. Bill had done extensive dyno testing with the Dominator in IR using the 4500 series Holley carburetors and had done testing using the even larger 4600 series Holley Dominators (Never produced past the experimental stage). I have seen dual Dominator intake manifolds that were used for drag racing with the 351C However they all have used spacer plates between the intake manifold and the heads. I have never seen or heard of a 351C intake manifold.


John 

Quote from: shelbydoug on December 11, 2023, 12:59:23 PM
The pics are appreciated by me John but how about top views?

Aren't the dual Dominators for the 69 B2 factory team car and those are serial numbered?

The Dominator carburetor and intake manifold story is so awesome. There were several series of Dominator intake manifold made up. I have owned several of them over the years. This is actually the first one I ever owned, however I let it go in 1987 trading it for a set of chrome Magnum 500 wheels. I then went through several versions trying to get back to this intake manifold.

Yes each intake had an XE or SK number that told what was different about it.

This intake manifold had two ports that someone had filled with clay to change the shape of the port. This intake is $11 of the final series. I was talking with Larry Ofria who I worked for way back and showed him the intake. He asked me about the clay, when I told him I took it out, he told me that Shelby paid him to put it in to improve the intake manifold ports. Oh, Well,


I think that I have shots from above of the intake manifolds from that same series. I'll check, if not I can get them out of the storage facility and shoot new ones.


The Dominator (Not Yet named that yet - BTW) was technically doomed at this point, However unbeknownst to FoMoCo and Holley an insider friend of Ronnie Kaplan told him about the new carburetor and he arranged to liberate two pair out the back door and secretly developed an intake manifold for them. Not knowing that AMC had any FoMoCo showed up to the first race of the season. The SCCA tech people started to explain to the FoMoCo teams that the carburetors would not be allowed when a Ford executive noticed while passing the AMC pits that AMC also had the new monster carburetors. Originally he was quite upset that someone else had the new trick carburetors, however once he got back to their team cars and was told SCCA was not happy. He told the SCCA tech person "Anybody who wanted to get them could, go look at the AMC cars they have them.





John