SAAC Forum

Color Code Information Wanted
Ford 2100/4100 Carburetor "Support" (a.k.a. booster, cluster) Color Codes

Mid 1960s support assemblies were marked with either one or two daubs of colored paint. Some of the late 1950s parts were partially dipped in dyes of different colors.  The tubular passages from their tower like main bodies out to auxiliary venturi were targets for color code daubs.  Each color they had could be used alone of in combinations with itself or other colors.   The example below is the secondary "B" support in a new old stock C3OF-AJ model for most 1963½ HP289 Fairlane engines.  The B supports received a single red daub on what would be the driver's side tube of the car the carburetor was used in.



The "BA" support used in C4OF-AL carburetor assemblies received a red daub on both tubes. There were all kinds of colors and combinations; i.e. yellow on one side and black on the other. The one I can find no data on is the "M" support used in C4OF-AL carburetors. So far I have not found anybody that knows how they were marked.  While the daubs on secondary supports often last until somebody solvent cleans the assembly the daubs on primary clusters usually got washed off pretty quickly, probably by fuel mist during choke operation.

My question to the community is, does anybody have color pictures of a new old stock M support or have a used part with traces of paint remaining? I sure would like the information to complete my spread sheet on color codes on C4OF-AL, C4OF-AT, and early C5OF-L carburetors for 1964½-65 HP289 engines.

Thanks for looking.
Dan

f.y.i....7/16BSF X 2¼ GKN made Grade R bolts. Stock fastener for the upper end of Cobra shock absorbers in rack and pinion chassis. Very hard to find in any condition. I just received the ones that I ordered from this offering.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-16-BSF-X-2-1-4-Long-GKN-Bolts-R-Grade-New-Old-Stock-4-Off/312812230299?hash=item48d50fd69b:g:5UkAAOSwDtxdZqSL

Made in Italy, maybe, made by the famous carburetor company S.p.A. Edorado Weber, maybe not.

Take note and buyer beware as not all "MADE IN ITALY" marked 48 IDA Series carburetors in the marketplace are genuine 'originals', i.e. not every one was made by the company that you think made them.
I will let those interested look up the words resemblance and or counterfeit.

I see some 48 IDA, 48 IDA-1, and lots of 48 IDA4 models for sale that do not match several hundreds of known examples produced by the S.p.A. Edorado Weber (Weber) firm in Italy.  I once saw two (2) each bogus serial number 1 48 IDA carburetors for sale while attending a single SAAC convention.  At least three entities have produced counterfeit parts and carburetors since the 1970s. All the main body castings indicated that they were made in Italy. Were they? I have no idea but they sure don't match what Weber actually made. I have read in print that the first counterfeits started showing up in the UK by 1971 and that includes service parts and whole carburetors.  I have read about and corresponded with racers that some of the issues users suffered were believed to have resulted in getting bogus parts or carburetors mixed into their racing induction systems. 

The common context  is a seller claiming their offering(s) is(are) genuine Weber made in Italy carburetors solely based on the detail of having "MADE IN ITALY" cast into the main bodies.  That line of text is not an automatic verification of authenticity.  So, how does one identify a potential counterfeit? In broad terms the two situations that automatically call my attention to them is 1) mixed features and 2) poor aluminum castings quality. One can drill down to smaller details but most of the time one does not have to do much study. 

Mixed Features:  Many of the parts from main body castings to small ancillary parts were made in series that change specifications over time. If an used assembly has let's say design features of two to several different "factory" periods mixed into one carburetor, that has me examine the unit more carefully. Notes: 1) Restored carburetors almost always have mixed time frame and or design parts incorporated in them.  That makes evaluating them more difficult.  2) At least one clever person has started modifying 1970s and later Weber made carburetors to closely mimic 1960s versions right down to restamping of model and serial numbers. 

Poor Aluminum Castings (body and cover): Weber had very nice aluminum die casting molds to produce the blanks for these parts.  The best counterfeit castings are often very hard to identify as such because the makers went to a lot of trouble to produce their castings. One version of counterfeits has very poorly done castings.  Take a look at the image below. It looks like somebody made something like a plaster cast of a genuine body and hand poured their versions. Not shown but there are gaps in places in the mounting flanges where metal did not get to. Yes,  it is really easy to spot as not genuine even though it says "MADE IN ITALY" on it.



How many bogus carburetors are out in the world?  I have no idea. In my database I have enough very questionable units to be aware that bogus ones are out there.

Bear all this in mind when somebody offers some 'real' made in Italy carburetors for sale.

Wanted To Buy Ford 4100 Series Carburetor Parts
2 each narrow angle idle mixture needle valve screws




4 each 4 loop coil springs that go with the narrow angle idle mixture screws above  (4 loop springs are rare, most 2100/4100 carburetors use 4½ loop springs)

2 each manual choke fast idle adjustment levers (different part than automatic choke applications) and long fast idle adjustment screws (different part than automatic choke applications)







2 each fast idle cam distance pieces, plated steel version (looks like an odd thick flat washer)


Thanks for looking.
Dan

Wanted to buy.  There seems to have been two versions of one 1960s Ford fastener in Grade 5 for certain FE engine exhaust manifold attachment. See picture below. The fully threaded version is not very rare and there is an excellent reproduction of it available. I am looking for some mint used or new old stock ones as shown in the lower images with the small logo F and the partially threaded shank.

Thanks for looking.

We (mostly me)are collecting data on engine blocks and cylinder heads for five bolt HP289s originally installed in new Cobras April 1964 and later.  The configurations between March 1963 and about mid April 1964 are very well known. 

The questions in configurations pop up because Ford made component changes during April 1964. We are interested in documenting mostly intact original engines. The engine number and assembly date together are important to compare them to the database for all five bolt HP289s documented to date no matter what their original installation was in.  I am looking for:

Ford Engine Serial Numbers

Engine block casting version ( C4OF-6015C or C4OF-6015F)

Engine block casting dates (interested in any date in April 1964 through July 1964)

Cylinder head casting version (C4OE-B or C5OE-A)

Cylinder head casting date(s)

Engine assembly dates

Thanks in advance for any help you might provide.

If you have a mostly intact original engine and don't know where to look for engine numbers and the assembly date, send me a PM, I have a slide show with that information.

Engine Mounted Mechanical Fuel Pumps Through CSX2125

If you own or have access to an unrestored, substantially as built, with its original engine, and original engine mounted fuel pump car before CSX2126 we (me mostly but others are interested and helping) would like you to help add data and pictures to a database.  We are working to collect data on the pump's manufacturer, casting numbers as applicable, casting dates as applicable, assembly dates, finishes, and fittings.  Real good pictures of the installation in the car would be great to have also.   Maybe you know where an original engine with fuel pump still attached is sitting in storage or on display.

Don't have a car or access now, did you manage to take some pictures of the fuel pump area on these cars decades ago?

The intent is to add to the open source Cobra engine notes and slide shows I share with owners and restorers.   If you have information or pictures but don't want them public, that works for me as long as I may add your casting or assembly dates to the known ranges without tying them to you or a specific car.

Thanks in advance for any information you may add to the collection. Send me a private message through this site if you wish to make contact.

Dan

f.y.i.... I am in no way connected to this offering other than I bought a knob from this seller. The seller has had multiple ones to sell and they have sometimes been priced lower either of the two common inaccurate reproductions on the commercial market concurrently.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1962-1963-1964-Ford-Galaxie-Four-Speed-Shift-Gear-Knob-Original-Hipo-406-427/223555606993?epid=22013083738&hash=item340cf3d9d1:g:9XwAAOSw7vxbeBel

To the best of my knowledge this is the correct "assembly line" knob for CSX2001 through CSX2200 Cobras and one of two prototype Sunbeam Tigers and the first 56 production Sunbeam Tigers. From my Cobra Transmissions notes:  "Note: Contrary to mythology the short style Sunbeam Tiger shift lever is not the same as a Cobra's. The Cobra and Tiger lever assemblies were made slightly differently in design and manufacturing details, probably made by different suppliers, and had a slightly different overall length based on original samples we have gotten to measure. Part of the confusion is that the very first few Tigers got Cobra transmissions and shifters before Rootes came up with a production supply of their own. A noted Sunbeam Tiger researcher has published that the first fifty six (56) production Sunbeam Tigers made in the summer of 1964 were fitted with 1963 Cobra gear shift systems and late 1963 onward aluminum cased Cobra Borg-Warner T-10 four speed manual transmissions. Based on what I could find published one of the two prototype Tigers also used a Cobra transmission and shifting systems so that would be fifty seven (57) Tigers total with CSX2001 through CSX2200 gear shift levers and knob assemblies. (CSX2201 and later Cobras used different lever and knob assemblies.)"

I have no connection to this offering but it is interesting.  Why?  I have gotten lots of information about the development and history of the 1963½ HP289 Fairlane engines (also used in Cobras and other cars) from Mr. Bob Mannel. Based on documents Mr. Mannel has had access to the first prototype HP289 engines were installed in Fairlanes for testing by the end of October 1962. Ford started assembly line production of HP289 engines during the first week of March 1963. It is not unusual to find 1963½ HP289 specific production parts dated in late February 1963. Makes sense, subassemblies made not long before engine production start up.

Based on the assembly date of the partial assembly offered it was probably one of the items necessary to build up some preproduction High Performance 289s for preproduction testing.

Neat artifact but probably not all that valuable unless you just happened to have the rest of the preproduction engine to go with it.  My question is why is it a C3OF-12127-D assembly?  There was a production model before it.

High Performance 260 engines were fitted with C2FF-12127-A mechanical dual point distributors with all known ones having a single assembly date so far.  March through circa May 1963 High Performance 289s received C3OF-12127-F assemblies. I have seen ones dated 3BA through 3DE. The C3OF-12127-D is believed to have been used to finish the balance of 1963 model year engines through June 1963.

Based on this find, Ford was testing the C3OF-12127-D model by September 1962. Back to my question, if the C3OF-D design was already a known in September 1962 why did Ford make suffix F models for three months before introducing the suffix D model?  Said another way, the C3OF-12127-F model appears to have been some type temporary use model.

Other trivia. The PRODUCTION C3OF-12127-F assembly included an empty vacuum advance housing (i.e. no diaphragm inside). The PRODUCTION C3OF-121287-D received a new main body casting with no place to attach a vacuum advance mechanism. The odd partial assembly offered has a dummy vacuum advance.

From the offering:

"Very rare early version of the 289 HiPo distributor. Has correct "empty" vacuum advance with correct original plug. C3OF-12127-D part number with 2KD date code, 4th week of October 1962 which puts this right at the very beginning of HiPo production! No breaker plate. Sold as is."

https://contact.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?FindAnswers&iid=192960386549&findanswers=&redirect=0&requested=darrylh99

I am in no way connected with this offering or the others by this seller.

Here is a link to one, check out the seller's other items. Looks like what COBRA lettering got added to for 'safety' bell housings for five bolt engines.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/An-Authentic-1963-Print-Of-A-Shelby-American-Clutch-Flywheel-Housing-Blueprint/163680645159?hash=item261c207027:g:cKwAAOSw619cuhuO:sc:USPSFirstClass!59718!US!-1

I am in no way connected to this offering on Ebay®. 


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-Ford-Fairlane-AUTOLITE-4100-4-BARREL-CARBURETOR-1-12-C3OF-AB-HIPO-289/312625681311?hash=item48c9f1539f:g:-fcAAOSwXexc5Yz8


This assembly has been commercially rebuilt before so it is missing its assembly tag and the top cover assembly is not correct BUT the main casting is stamped C3OF-AB.  That was the original HP289 carburetor model for all of preproduction engines during late 1962 through mid May 1963 production or about the first 1000± HP289 engines. (Regular production of HP289s started March 1, 1963.) They are super rare now in any condition. This is only the second core I have ever come across.


This model was replaced by the C3OF-AJ one in mid May 1963. There are many calibrated parts differences between the suffix AB and AJ models.


If you have a car (1963 Fairlane or Cobra are the most likely candidates) with a 1963½ engine assembled before about mid-May 1963 this would the original model for your engine. Check your engine assembly date and or the engine serial number.

Wanted to buy or trade for an original E. Weber 48 IDA or 48 IDA1 carburetor with a serial number less than 100 to complete a set.

Also interested in any quantity of original 1960s parts:
- the 1964-65 version of the #37 and #37A throttle levers shown in the factory exploded view. (New versions are still available but they are made differently than the original design.)

- 3.5 mm auxiliary venturi in great used to new old stock condition, Ford type preferred but the Porsche type will be considered in case you have a full set of eight

- 40 mm chokes (a.k.a. main venturi)

Created for Shelby American 'COBRA' S1CS mascot emblem used on all but earliest Cobras versus the C3RA emblem Ford Motor Company had made and Shelby American used on 427 Cobras.




There is no text on the reverse of the S1CS parts but there are on the Ford C3RA parts.



My picture and commentary file covering production mascot emblems for Cobras is way too long and complicated to put in a thread but if you are interested send me your e-mail address in a PM (private message) and I will send information to you.

This is not mine offering but complete unrestored substantially as Shelby and Ford sold them systems don't come up for sale often. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BARN-FIND-289-FORD-WEBER-48IDA-MANIFOLD-AND-CARBS/113368253245?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

I asked the seller for model numbers and serial numbers. He answered with:
48IDA 1114
48IDA 1115
48IDA 1257
48IDA 1060

Time frame wise I would place the carburetors in the late 1966 to early 1967 time frame (sorry close as I can make an educated guess on) as they fall just after a range of serial numbers of units installed on new GT40s completed in late 1966. The water neck is the second version of cast aluminum COBRA lettered I believe came out in time for 1967 parts catalogs.  (This is the carburetor serial number range were SHELBY lettered intakes started showing up in my data collection.)

NOT MINE. This is not mine nor am I connected in any way with the seller but this piece is so rare I wanted to make an attempt to let early Cobra owners know that it is listed on ebay®

Based on the Holman-Moody intake they created for 260 c.i.d. Ford engines in the 1962-63 time frame this version has COBRA lettering where the Holman-Moody bird logo was in the original version. IMPORTANT: This intake is functionally a copy of a Ford cast iron prototype intake for XHP-260 and HP260 engines and is not suitable for 289 c.i.d. engines performance wise.  These are rare. I have only come across five (5) of them in all these last five plus decades. It was a regular production option for early Cobras. A Holley R-2599 carburetor assembly went with the option package when ordered for a new Cobra.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-AC-COBRA-Aluminum-4-barrel-Intake-Manifold-Ford-260-289-4V-Shelby/232877526048?hash=item3638950c20:g:SEEAAOSwNedbaRQv

Wanted To Buy:  Mostly thanks to Shelby American factory pictures and the owners of a few very early Cobras we know that there were at least four different versions of 4V cast iron intake manifolds for 260 c.i.d. engines.  I would be interested in any Ford version. Have one and don't want to sell or trade, I would like a set of comprehensive pictures of what you have.

Thanks for looking. Dan

XHP-260      SK12569 w/provision for road draft system, usually has a hand applied serial number also.

XHP-260      no identification w/provision for road draft system.

HP260      C2O 9425-K / XE 10639 w/provision for road draft system.

HP260      C2OE-9425-K w/provision for road draft system.

Production part or service part?

For historical accuracy, beware of using the 1965 and 1966 (published in 1965 and 1966) Shelby American service parts books for Cobra and 427 Cobra repairs or restorations.  The yearly race season forms and within seasons revised forms Shelby American submitted to the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) race sanctioning organization for Cobras can also get one historically lost as some parts were not described enough to know exactly what was being listed or the picture(s) included might have been what was planned and not necessarily what was used; the prototype intake for Weber down draft carburetors comes to mind, it was a wooden mock up painted silver.  There was a 427 Cobra chassis Bill Of Materials published that included a cross reference of AC Cars and Shelby American identifications. It is a very interesting document but it too must be used carefully as to me it appears to be what was planned before the first chassis was built and not what AC Cars actually built for any of the coil spring chassis contracts. Also do not rely on the aftermarket accessory catalogs that Shelby American published 1966-68. These published works were not 'here is what AC Cars/Hugus/Shelby/Ford "as built" the cars with' set of references.  None of the Shelby service and accessories parts books address evolution of parts well as 'new' versions or designs got replaced 'old' parts; stabilizer bar grommets and mounts come to mind as 1963-64 pieces and 1965 pieces are significantly different parts doing the same jobs. None of these publications directly addressed the many changes in new chassis within or between contracts for chassis.  It was critical from the start for dealers and owners to know the chassis number of the car they were making parts inquiries for.  Without knowing the chassis number the chances of getting the correct service part(s) were less than perfect. There were quite a few differences in an early CSX20xx car and a late CSX20xx car and a late CSX25xx car was very different parts wise.  (Note: COB and COX prefix chassis were a little different to very different from the CSX chassis that were built concurrently as AC Cars home market specifications were different from American market specifications in many ways.)

The Shelby parts and accessory books were in part lists of commonly serviced or replaced parts and in part lists of post delivery accessories.  Many of the parts listed were just things that will do the job. Most of the parts AC Cars used in building the chassis were not included. Many of the significant parts for early Cobras were not listed at all.  The racing and accessory parts listed were not always the same things installed on new cars street or race. Regarding racing accessory catalogs, Shelby American often used one thing on their team cars and something else on customer cars or through the parts department.

These books also did not include a lot of the small parts SA sourced or made on their own locally without going through Ford or AC Cars.

Also, beware that for Cobras that the AC Cars chassis manuals also include service parts that were different that what was used in production. I have even found an omission, i.e. a part used in new Cobras not shown in the drawing in the manual or associated parts list.

Also bear in mind that chassis were built and finished into running cars street and race over several years by different groups of people in different shops in different countries; there were prototypes or engineering specials; street chassis were occasionally finished into racing cars; chassis were specifically ordered and built as race chassis; 'team' race cars often changed a tiny amount to a lot race to race.  Bear in mind that a part or material available on a given day in production might have been replaced by a different or improved version weeks or months later.  The published parts information barely makes an attempt to delineate any of these variations.

In general to get a good idea of how any new Cobra might have been outfitted one has to know the chassis number, when was the chassis finished as a roller, when was the unit finished into a running car, was it a street car or race car day one, was it built to custom specifications day one or modified as a new car into a working test vehicle by AC Cars or Ed Hugus' shop or Ford Motor Company or Shelby American, and which shop did the final assembly for any 'stock' street car.

A question came up on another forum about the optional (street and race) magnesium wheels with steel 'spline drive' adapters available for new Cobras.  I thought that my response would be interesting to some on this site also.


Shelby American Inc. offered "spline drive" magnesium wheels made by American Racing as street and racing options. There were two design types, the original with 'hidden lugs' and the revised with 'exposed lugs'. Both wheel assembly designs incorporated steel adapters bolted in from the rear of the wheel and steel sleeves on the outboard side to be hard wear surfaces for standard AC logo center lock "knock off" nuts. All wheels were for 15" diameter tires.

Cobra wise buyers could get widths between 6.0 and 8.5 inches with the 6.0 models being unique to Shelby American and Cobras. American Racing added 6.5 through 8.5 inches wide models to their aftermarket catalogs.

6.0 inches wide wheels generally work without coachwork modifications on all four corners. A popular combination was 6.0 inches wide front and 7.0 inches wide in rear. 7.0 inches wide wheels in rear and or extra large tires could require modification of wings depending on the particular chassis as some coachwork width variation was normal.

An additional strengthening revision was made at some point but I don't know when, a rib was added inside each wheel spoke. See the image of the reverse side of a WHEEL below.

Neither assembly design type was light weight as compared to any of the 'pin drive' magnesium wheels Shelby American used.

Street and road racing wise the first 'hidden lug' design assembly proved generally satisfactory durability wise. The first design was not good on the rear for drag racing as the lug bolts tended to wallow out the magnesium they were threaded into. The solution was the 'exposed lug' revision whereby acorn type 'lug nuts' and the bolts captured the hub of the magnesium wheel between them. The second Shelby works "Dragonsnake" used the new design exposed lug wheels.

This wheel is 8.50 wide and was used for many years on the rear of a Cobra but it illustrates the 'hidden lugs.


This is a new old stock 6.0 wide made specifically for Cobras 'exposed lug' wheel I once owned shown front and reverse side.




Most wheels were used as delivered by American Racing. There were at least two cars outfitted with hidden lug wheels that had their outboard sides completely mirror polished.




Some old unrestored wheels on unrestored Cobras had stickers like these on them.




Dan

Wanted To Buy

Original only wanted. I have a really nice used carburetor except its assembly tag is missing. A tag stamped C3AF-S level A dated 2HE (or close to that date) would be most interesting.

Thanks for looking. Dan

If you have an original COB/COX60xx  'AC Cobra' (leaf spring suspension chassis) or COB/COX61xx '289 Sports' (coil spring suspension chassis) car that retains its original rack and pinion steering assembly and you don't mind sharing information, what is the assembly number stamped into one of the aluminum rack housing assemble end castings?

If you don't want to reply in the forum but are agreeable to sharing, please e-mail me or send a private message.

Thanks.
Dan