SAAC Forum

Quote from: Chad on June 17, 2018, 07:19:30 PM
Hey Dan,

Thanks for the info.  So the dealer invoice for my car #2460 list a High-riser manifold.  So would that have been dealer installed?  If so what carb would they have put on it?

Thanks Chad

The Registry indicates the first buyer of your car made the deal July 1, 1965. Any version of "small letter" intake manifold (There were several different castings made by at least two different foundaries.) made available up to that point in time. Any version any date of R-3259 1965 MUSTANG GT350 carburetor made available up to that time. Shelby American did not practice first in first out inventory control as evidenced by a 1966 MUSTANG GT350 getting sold with a prototype R-3259 from 1964.

Assuming the dealer ordered a induction kit for a Cobra there should have also been ancillary parts besides just the manifold and carburetor.

Based on the Registry only three new Cobras were factory fitted (Shelby's works in California) with high rise aluminum intakes and Holley® carburetors.

From my Cobra engine notes:

CSX2497, CSX2553, and CSX2555 all got 1965 MUSTANG GT350 high rise intakes and carburetors AFTER 1965 MUSTANG GT350 production started. (I had the carburetor from CSX2555 for years, it is now on 1965 MUSTANG GT350 SFM5026.)

CSX2497 was sold as a Stage I competition car with what was described as a racing engine, leaving only CSX2553 and CSX2555 as street cars so fitted.

Between Registry information and what I have learned about these cars, the exact version of carburetor  could have had whatever version of R-3259 there was available at the time they were finished as running cars.

CSX2553 was invoiced on 01-21-1965
CSX2555 was invoiced on 04-21-1965 (The original carburetor was from the 4B5 production run under the first engineering design level.)
CSX2497 had a work order dated 07-28-1965 to install the race engine and other goodies.

From circa September 1964 when we believe the few prototype R-3259s were made for Shelby American and late July 1965 there were:
R-3259 (Prototypes made by the Holley Custom Shop from already existing R-2668 carburetors in 1964.)
R-3259A (As far as I can find and or believe only the two production runs in December 1964 were made under this revision level. We got copies of what few engineering files Holley still had.)
R-3259AAS (Most of the "3259s" made. A few parts changed between the December 1964 run assemblies and all others I have examined. There were several production runs in 1965 for these.)

Note: There were also "1966" and later versions made under the R-3259-1A and R-3259-1AAS revision levels.

How about a part from the car? Long ago, back when events were meets and not shows, Mr. Shelby was doing signatures for free. There was a long line of people waiting. They had all kinds of media from plain white paper to skin. A Cobra owner wanted to get something signed but he had nothing at hand to get signed. I suggested that he go across the street and buy a marker pen, go remove the air cleaner top from his engine, and get in line with it.

My friend did just that. Mr. Shelby was sort of taken back by the idea of signing a car part but he did it. In minutes people were showing up in line with markers and sun visors or glove box doors from their cars at the event. 

The images I have seen of unmolested used 427 Cobra cast iron exhaust manifolds show a AC Cars part number cast into them. AC Cars supplied the cast iron two branch exhaust manifolds for HP289 engines in Cobras.

Production part or service part?

For historical accuracy, beware of using the 1965 and 1966 (published in 1965 and 1966) Shelby American service parts books for Cobra and 427 Cobra repairs or restorations.  The yearly race season forms and within seasons revised forms Shelby American submitted to the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) race sanctioning organization for Cobras can also get one historically lost as some parts were not described enough to know exactly what was being listed or the picture(s) included might have been what was planned and not necessarily what was used; the prototype intake for Weber down draft carburetors comes to mind, it was a wooden mock up painted silver.  There was a 427 Cobra chassis Bill Of Materials published that included a cross reference of AC Cars and Shelby American identifications. It is a very interesting document but it too must be used carefully as to me it appears to be what was planned before the first chassis was built and not what AC Cars actually built for any of the coil spring chassis contracts. Also do not rely on the aftermarket accessory catalogs that Shelby American published 1966-68. These published works were not 'here is what AC Cars/Hugus/Shelby/Ford "as built" the cars with' set of references.  None of the Shelby service and accessories parts books address evolution of parts well as 'new' versions or designs got replaced 'old' parts; stabilizer bar grommets and mounts come to mind as 1963-64 pieces and 1965 pieces are significantly different parts doing the same jobs. None of these publications directly addressed the many changes in new chassis within or between contracts for chassis.  It was critical from the start for dealers and owners to know the chassis number of the car they were making parts inquiries for.  Without knowing the chassis number the chances of getting the correct service part(s) were less than perfect. There were quite a few differences in an early CSX20xx car and a late CSX20xx car and a late CSX25xx car was very different parts wise.  (Note: COB and COX prefix chassis were a little different to very different from the CSX chassis that were built concurrently as AC Cars home market specifications were different from American market specifications in many ways.)

The Shelby parts and accessory books were in part lists of commonly serviced or replaced parts and in part lists of post delivery accessories.  Many of the parts listed were just things that will do the job. Most of the parts AC Cars used in building the chassis were not included. Many of the significant parts for early Cobras were not listed at all.  The racing and accessory parts listed were not always the same things installed on new cars street or race. Regarding racing accessory catalogs, Shelby American often used one thing on their team cars and something else on customer cars or through the parts department.

These books also did not include a lot of the small parts SA sourced or made on their own locally without going through Ford or AC Cars.

Also, beware that for Cobras that the AC Cars chassis manuals also include service parts that were different that what was used in production. I have even found an omission, i.e. a part used in new Cobras not shown in the drawing in the manual or associated parts list.

Also bear in mind that chassis were built and finished into running cars street and race over several years by different groups of people in different shops in different countries; there were prototypes or engineering specials; street chassis were occasionally finished into racing cars; chassis were specifically ordered and built as race chassis; 'team' race cars often changed a tiny amount to a lot race to race.  Bear in mind that a part or material available on a given day in production might have been replaced by a different or improved version weeks or months later.  The published parts information barely makes an attempt to delineate any of these variations.

In general to get a good idea of how any new Cobra might have been outfitted one has to know the chassis number, when was the chassis finished as a roller, when was the unit finished into a running car, was it a street car or race car day one, was it built to custom specifications day one or modified as a new car into a working test vehicle by AC Cars or Ed Hugus' shop or Ford Motor Company or Shelby American, and which shop did the final assembly for any 'stock' street car.

For historical accuracy, beware of using the 1965 and 1966 (published in 1965 and 1966) Shelby American service parts books for Cobra and 427 Cobra repairs or restorations. The books are not 'here is what we "as built" the cars with' set of references. The books are service part books. Many of  the parts listed are just things that will do the job. Many of the parts for early Cobras are not listed at all.

They also do not include a lot of the small parts SA sourced or made on their own locally without going through Ford or AC Cars.

Also, beware that for Cobras for sure the AC Cars chassis manuals also includes service parts that were different that what was used in production. I have even found an omission, i.e. a part used in new Cobras not shown in the drawing in the manual or parts list.

Quote from: gt350hr on May 18, 2018, 02:02:54 PM
Dan it is entirely possible that the "universal" over the counter kit was used because of the low volume nature on this engine combination. A 427 Cobra with a single four , cast iron manifolds and rear exit exhaust is pretty rare! Obviously the 428 is more common , but still a small number.

SAI sourced all kinds of parts locally on their own from day one with CSX2000 in Dean Moon's shop. The 'stuff' sourced locally is the hardest to find now especially items that were custom ordered or sourced from small manufacturing companies that didn't survive past the 1970s.

The whole engine "thing" was a string of "rare" combinations.  CSX32xx and CSX33xx cars did not get as many SAI changes or additions to engines as received from Ford as CSX31xx cars did. That doesn't mean parts for the 4V fitted engines are easy to find.

Most CSX32xx and CSX3301, received 1966 428 PI engines for manual transmissions to which SAI added some 427 Cobra only goodies.  Rare doesn't describe some parts for those engines as manual transmission hot rod police cars must not have been real common.   

I have not heard of a CSX32xx car getting any but during the CSX31xx time frame SAI did offer a under chassis header system. CSX3141 was fitted with a set and an automatic transmission so the headers were probably just barely squeezed in.

No problem.

I don't do all that much on research on 427 Cobras so I don't know near as many details on manufacturers, materials, and part numbers as I do for Cobras. I do collect information that I can comb through as required.

Quote from: PhilS on May 17, 2018, 03:33:31 PM
Got them. Thank you.

You are welcome. This is the closest "old" kit I have seen and the tube and cover are probably way too short. The heat pick up fitting looks great.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1955-56-57-58-THUNDERBIRD-FORD-LINCOLN-MERCURY-AUTOMATIC-CHOKE-CONTROL-HEAT-UNIT/183229376067?hash=item2aa9526643:g:W34AAOSwvD5aEx-K

Images sent.

Quote from: PhilS on May 17, 2018, 03:04:06 PM
Thanks for the responses. I have one for a 67 R code Fairlane but it is 1-2 inches too long. I have never seen a correct one so I might just section mine. Once installed it would be hard to detect as long as the nut end is alike.

The insulator cover is visually the tough thing if exact day one appearance is desired. The original tube covers were pretty fragile and would come apart. I have seen unrestored 427 Cobras with just a scrap of original cover hanging off a copper tube.

Send me your e-mail address in a PM (private message) on this forum and I will send a couple of very unrestored car pictures.

Quote from: gt350hr on May 17, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
  The original tubes are mild steel similar to that used for brake and fuel lines except 1/4" dia tube. Because of the "log" style cast iron manifolds used , the tube would be very close to one for a '65 Thunderbird or Galaxie offering which used the log style manifold. It would not be the same as the production 427 tube which used "header looking" , long manifolds. I am not aware of a reproduction but there may be.
     Randy

All the intact unrestored 427 Cobra pictures (includes dirty one owner low mile cars) I have show a copper tube, including new CSX31xx engines during installation at Shelby's works. Unrestored cars I have seen in person had a few as 800 original miles to less than 10,000 miles with copper tubes.

Not all 2-4V cars hot air choke pull off systems in the CSX31xx and CSX30xx S/C ranges. In a few cars a special plug provided by Holley sealed the choke inlet and the thermostatic control cover was remarked with a new nominal index by hand. The plug was actual something used briefly by Ford in 427 R Code engines, briefly but long enough to get shown in a TSB.

I won't claim to be an expert on this subject but CSX32xx and CSX33xx chassis with 4V induction. Not much different than CSX31xx 2-4V induction except on opposite sides of the engine.

I don't recall what it is called it but there was a special heat capturing fitting threaded into an exhaust manifold. (A new old stock fitting was offered on ebay® about three months ago. I have seen two different lengths for sale. I don't know the length of the one used in a 427 Cobra but it can't be real long.) A soft copper tube connected the fitting in the manifold to the choke mechanism on the carburetor. A soft flexible asbestos fiber based woven tube covered (insulated) the copper tube.

The hard to duplicate detail is that the insulation tube that is not a Ford part. The one person that I know that has been successful finding an exact match did so hunting old inventory in old pre-national chain flood parts stores and that was a long time ago.

Quote from: Bob Gaines on May 11, 2018, 08:55:35 PM

Quote from: sfm5s081 on May 11, 2018, 05:59:54 PM
funny, I run a 66 Virginia Mustang one on my 65.

Nothing wrong with it IMO . I have a original and the repro on display engines and the only way you can tell is that the original is a little more distressed in comparison in my case.

At least some originals were made in a magnesium alloy and were subject to significant corrosion in wet or wet and salty locations.

Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on April 19, 2018, 11:23:58 PM
Complete car should be worth more. If you parts out a Cobra your should get the most money for the right footwell with tag and title.

The aluminum tag AC Cars used on CSX2xxx chassis CSX2201 and later haven't proven to be all that valuable. 1) Many owners of prior chassis have added tags to cars that didn't originally have them. As such they are a non stock addition. I know of several different versions of counterfeits, reproductions, and replicar versions. 2) It varies a little over the years but for whatever reasons around 11% of CSX2201 and later chassis (my data collection) are now using some kind of replacement for the original tag. So far the lack of an original tag has not affected the market desirability of those cars. Indeed, complete recreated from near nothing cars sell for big sums "original" tag or not. 

Yes, the title can be "worth" a surprising amount in six figures, even if the car is not much more than a pile of rubble. The more famous the car the remains use to be the more valuable the "title" to it might be. It is the history of a chassis that affects "value" more than anything else. That is most likely why creative new unknown histories suddenly come out of nowhere for cars like: always a street car going into a restoration shop and coming out with claims of being a successful Shelby race team racer.