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Messages - Dan Case

#511
PM sent. DC
#512
1965 GT350/R-Model / Re: Color of proportion valve
February 21, 2018, 04:09:53 PM
Quote from: Bob Gaines on February 20, 2018, 01:26:07 AM
Quote from: whiteykr on February 20, 2018, 12:36:34 AM
What is the correct color on the outside of the proportion valve? I have seen both semigloss black and grey with the bare metal areas. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks  This is for 65 Shelby.
I depends on how early of a car. It is easy to say a mid or late production car would be black . Not so much with the earlier builds. In the beginning Shelby's used the ones that were gray just like a regular Mustang. SA had problems with the 2 1/2 inch rear brakes locking up. After a while SA got Ford to specify from the MFG to pre adjust the proportioning valves (backed off from typical Mustang adjustment) and most likely to make it easier to identify on the Ford assemblyline the valves were now painted black. The engineering number changed to a different C5ZX number also which the ZX designation typically meant a Shelby item. The only difference is the adjustment and the color.

SFM5S142 had a gray one. I kept it for years as a sample, eventually somebody with one with stripped threads talked me out of it for their car.
#513
Wanted to Buy / Re: C6FE heads
February 21, 2018, 04:04:35 PM
Quote from: SFM5S000 on February 21, 2018, 03:32:08 PM
Dan,

There are also the sets of C6FE heads Jack Schroll had recasted out here on the west coast. Forrest still has several sets. Randy should be familiar with these as well and their "tendencies"...

Cheers,
~Earl J

Thanks. I know ones traceable back to day one are scarce. Vintage racers in England and Europe always seem to be hunting genuine Ford sets. I had three sets, one from a Shelby prepared GT40 (now on my red car's play engine), one from an engine used in the works Group II Mustang and its induction system (in storage since circa 1968), and a set that Bob Johnson got from Shelby and used on one of his engines (now on a ultra restored GT40).
#514
SAAC Forum Discussion Area / Re: Service Replacement
February 21, 2018, 03:58:55 PM
Best policy is to know exactly what you are after and if you don't know ask here on this site or privately offline.
#515
SAAC Forum Discussion Area / Re: Service Replacement
February 21, 2018, 03:15:58 PM
Quote from: KR Convertible on February 21, 2018, 03:03:31 PM
NOS parts need to be stored properly to retain their value!!

About 10 years ago, I drove 8 hours to buy a NOS lot of early Mustang parts.  When I got there, I found rusty, pitted parts in Ford boxes and wrappers.  I said to the older gentleman "these parts are not worth the price we discussed, they aren't worth any more than used parts".  He proceeded to throw a couple parts at me and I left.

Lesson learned!

+1 Back in the 1980s I answered an advertisement in HMN for a pair of magnesium GT40 wheels still in the factory boxes. Guess what I found when I got there. Have you ever seen what happens to magnesium wheels and cardboard boxes stored under a house trailer in mid Alabama for years on damp red clay soil? The wheels were absolutely corroded into big hole sponge like blobs with white oxide ooze everywhere and the boxes crumbled to pieces. The man just didn't understand why I had no interest in NOS GT40 wheels at a very premium price...................
#516
Wanted to Buy / Re: C6FE heads
February 21, 2018, 03:09:48 PM
Quote from: Mike_Senar on February 21, 2018, 02:33:45 PM
Someone here have a set they would let go of?
                                                    Mike

I don't want to sell my spare Shelby Group II team car set from 1967 but you might mention more detail as to what you prefer. There were 289 Ford wise:
-   At least two different casting patterns with slightly different exterior appearance.
-   Stock assemblies from Ford.
-   Assemblies ported by or for Ford Advance Vehicles in England
-   Assemblies ported by Valley Head Service for Shelby American Inc (SAI)
-   Assemblies ported by Joe Mondello for SAI
-   Vintage racing reproduction castings ported by lots of companies at least once since circa 1975

Randy might know of more versions.

Dan
#517
SAAC Forum Discussion Area / Re: Service Replacement
February 21, 2018, 02:55:53 PM
Quote from: 69mach351w on February 21, 2018, 01:36:49 PM
Ok, Dan, this is where I get somewhat confused. On your very last sentence at post #22. you say,  "Example: In last month quite a few AC Cars or just British made service parts from the 1970s and 1980s have shown up for sale on ebay® as "NOS".

But according to some reading info here, service parts are NOS.

Bob's reply to me at post #21......    Your bumper is NOS but the date code being after production of the car in question makes it a service part in context to a assemblyline part. It is still New Old Stock however.  Of course we all understand my bumper is not assemblyline.

This is where confusion comes in. What is correct? I'm sure we all agree that a genuine ford service replacement part is in fact NOS??....

Now I'm not talking about repop here at all !!!  Repop is not in this discussion at all.

Thanks



Ok, Dan, this is where I get somewhat confused. On your very last sentence at post #22. you say,  "Example: In last month quite a few AC Cars or just British made service parts from the 1970s and 1980s have shown up for sale on ebay® as "NOS".
DC: The seller called them new old stock.  Two different potential buyers asked me separately about them. They were obviously new and unused.  They were as far as my research indicates made sometime in the 1970s or no later than the 1980s. In this case I have parts actually installed by AC Cars in a new chassis, ones purchased from them in the 1970s and during the mid 1980s for comparison.  They all do the same job but are when compared side by side all obviously different in manufacturing methods,  tolerances, surface finishes, and design. Using the old understanding (before the 1970s) they were new old replacement stock by the original manufacturer. (Nothing wrong with that but if they had been exactly like production parts in every way their auction lot value would have probably been much greater than it was.  The Cobra owner that bought them got a great deal as almost nothing made commercially that we know of since about 1990 is a true 100% bolt out bolt in replacement by itself. That is changing as accurate recreations are in the works currently.)

But according to some reading info here, service parts are NOS.
DC:  In summary of several posts, these days "NOS" is in the mind of who is selling and who is buying not unlike saying 'let's go get a beer', what kind of beer, draft , canned,  bottle, ale, IPA, ????  The person saying it has something in mind.  Recently we took advantage relaxing at a bar that claimed to have something like 300+ different  "beers" on the menu.  If a business expects to turn over inventory every month then anything left from the previous month might be considered NOS. Don't get hung up on what somebody advertises something as, ask questions. 

Bob's reply to me at post #21......    Your bumper is NOS but the date code being after production of the car in question makes it a service part in context to a assemblyline part. It is still New Old Stock however.  Of course we all understand my bumper is not assemblyline.

This is where confusion comes in. What is correct? I'm sure we all agree that a genuine ford service replacement part is in fact NOS??....
DC: New and Old, sure but "NOS" does not mean that it was every used in any new car by itself.  Ford having new tools and new suppliers to make 1967 Mustang service parts in the 1980s were "factory" parts and were Mustang parts.  Genuine Ford, sure. Now in 2018 old, sure. Correct, for what, day one no. NOS as used today by most users does NOT equal assembly line correct. It can be "correct" in terms for being a factory authorized replacement like the F250 and Focus SVT parts described above.

Now I'm not talking about repop here at all !!!  Repop is not in this discussion at all.
DC:  Not always. Going back to the last response.  If anybody, including Ford like they did for the 1967 Mustang front valence has to study old original parts, create new drawings, find somebody to make new tools, and find somebody to produce new replacement parts THOSE PARTS ARE REPRODUCTIONS.  The maker might call them reissues or just service parts. So like the 1966 MUSTANG GT350 fuel cap and the 1967 Mustang front valence they were both start over reproductions sold through Ford dealers as service parts.  In those cases the only thing "original" was the part numbers carried over.

Thanks
« Last Edit: Today at 01:40:36 PM by 69mach351w »
#518
SAAC Forum Discussion Area / Re: Service Replacement
February 21, 2018, 12:44:18 PM
Quote from: gt350hr on February 21, 2018, 12:23:12 PM
+1 Dan. Buying 'NOS" parts can become an ugly experience with lesser informed sellers. They have a Ford boxed part that is new , check it for application on the internet , and put a price on it . I have seen CURRENTLY available parts listed as NOS advertised for OVER Ford retail. Another growing issue from "estate sales "  is  the USED part going in the replacement's  Ford box and set on a shelf. This has now filtered down to our local swap meets.  I now open boxes ( some sellers request I don't) to ensure what they are selling is "new". It really pays to know part numbers and "bundle" whenever possible.

+1 Randy. Good one. A few weeks ago I bought a "NOS" bearing in a Timken® box made for Shelby American. The seller would not look in the box so I took a chance. It was cheap. Timken included Shelby's S1CS Cobra part number on the box flap. Guess what was in the box? A  totally different kind of bearing that was very used and dirty. It was an old Timken bearing though.... (f.y.i....The bearings and most seals in Cobras et alii were made in England. Shelby American's service bearings and seals were made in the USA in the exact same time frame.)

It is best if buyers know exactly what they are looking for. Unfortunately I often hear from a Cobra or 427 Cobra owner AFTER they paid premium for something that turned out to be a post production replacement of some time frame or type. Paying $X for an old service part or reproduction that can be purchased still for half the amount is not something buyers like to hear.
#519
SAAC Forum Discussion Area / Re: Service Replacement
February 21, 2018, 12:40:03 PM
Quote from: Special Ed on February 21, 2018, 10:40:48 AM
.... made by a ford backup vendor or the second vendor when the part made isnt exactly like what was used on the assembly line & some parts were never serviced by ford so to be concours correct you have to restore the used original parts.

This is for Cobra, 427 Cobra, and 289 Sports owners in the audience. Ed mentioned production only parts.

Among FoMoCo, AC Cars Ltd, Ed Hugus, and Shelby's companies there were a bunch of parts used in making these cars new that were never service items and some only available while cars were still being built just like yours.  That doesn't mean that you couldn't get something that could be made to work.   (By the time CSX2025 was built it was very important to be able to tell the service department exactly what your chassis number was to have any chance of getting a suitable replacement (factory authorized replacement part would be one description) part. )

Many of the Ford parts were at the time in a state of rapid evolution; an assembly as complex as a carburetor might have only been a "production" part for three months.  Some parts and assemblies in new Cobras were Ford prototype or experimental parts made in extremely small numbers and often in multiple versions in a short period of time. Some visible engine parts were engine assembly plant only and not offered as service parts.  Ford designed or had designed parts just for new Cobras. Ford also had production runs of parts made just for new Cobras beyond the time they had been obosoleted in use by Ford in building new cars. Going back to Ed's post, at least one significant Cobra part was made by different sub-tier manufacturer than the similar Galaxie part.

AC Cars wise, many part designs changed rapidly under pressure from owners, racing, dealers, Shelby, and Ford.  AC Cars also completed some cars and their materials and methods were usually different than the shops of Hugus and Shelby. Many parts in a Cobra are unique to AC Cars including quite a few fasteners.

Ed Hugus wise, cars finished in his shop had many small parts and final assembly details different than what either AC Cars or Shelby's companies did.

Shelby's works wise,  a really big subject and too broad to do anything but touch on other than say specifications changed frequently in 1962 and 1963, not so much so 1964 onward. Going back to Ed's post what Shelby American used on street and race cars was often quite a bit different what they sold through the service and parts department. While most main stream FoMoCo parts could be obtained, there is no evidence that some Ford, AC, and or Shelby parts were ever offered as service parts. This was especially true with racing parts, i.e. Shelby's race teams used one thing and they sold customers something a little to a lot different.

So, Cobra-427 Cobra-289 Sports wise, various companies including various versions of AC Cars, Ford, American sub-tier suppliers, and British sub-tier suppliers  have made factory replacement or original company (original company name means almost nothing) parts for these cars as far back as April 1965.  Being old since as far back as 1965 and new doesn't automatically mean any new car got that exact part during original assembly.  Example: In last month quite a few AC Cars or just British made service parts from the 1970s and 1980s have shown up for sale on ebay® as "NOS".
#520
SAAC Forum Discussion Area / Re: Service Replacement
February 21, 2018, 11:56:48 AM
Quote from: KR Convertible on February 21, 2018, 09:43:21 AM
Interesting.  I had always thought NORS wasn't necessarily a Ford part and NOS was a Ford replacement part.  NOS wasn't necessarily assembly line correct, but bought from Ford back in "the day".

My frame of reference was the restoration of old cars prior to the mid 1970s and yes people had been "restoring cars" for several decades by then already, like restoring a 1903 car in 1912.  Before the mid 1970s most old car enthusiasts NOS meant made during the production time frame by the original maker with the original tools. (Surprise, some companies make parts for production and some make parts purely for service in more than a few industries.) Ford made (had made) popular 1965 model year parts for more than 30 years with few exactly like production parts that I ever got into my hands.  If enough people wanted 1966 Mustang front bench seats and hounded Ford to get some made they probably would. They offer in service what is 1) a legal obligation and 2) what is a 'fast', popular, and profitable seller.

Prior to the mid 1970s the business of supply parts to return cars to some resemblance of day one or even day two was very small. When I started reading Hemmings Motor News it wasn't much bigger in rectangle or thicker in pages than a typical local swap and shop type magazine at your local convenience store. The largest section covered the 1928-31 Ford Model A car period and there were not many advertisers.  Businesses like Kanter® were around and a few others that still exist.  I don't recall a single business that sold genuine O.E.M. factory parts from production or otherwise. The businesses were directed at keeping cars on the road and not maintaining them just like any factory created them. The quality of parts my father bought ranged from horrible to with enough effort you could make them work. I recall buying some brake parts for a 1930 Ford Model and not a single one of them would fit much less work. I took some parts to a machine shop to be fixed and had one made from scratch based on severely worn one.

These days there are sellers offering remanufactured parts as "NOS", well it is from their frame of reference probably. There are also people collection dozens for very rare never installed assembly line versions of parts, using them to secure judging points, removing them after one show or maybe a whole show season, putting them back in the packages, and selling them as factory NOS.   Once used they really are not "new" anything anymore, especially electrical parts that may have been damaged (cracked ignition distributor cap I saw offered for example).

The parts from any source, including the O.E.M., that were not exactly like the "originals" were some variation of replacement.  Just because it comes in a Ford package doesn't mean it is just like original.

Example: 1995 Ford F250 optional wheel center covers molded in plastic and chrome plated.  They were fragile and easy to break. The first time from new truck my tires were rotated one was broken. The dealer service department ordered one.  What came in was a redesigned stronger part.  I tried to get another "original" but the service manager told me that Ford recalled all the "originals" and now the new one was all you can get. My truck was six months old and all we could get was a New Replacement, new meaning not the same as before.

Example: 2003 Focus SVT 5 Door center high brake light. During the first winter the red lens broke at a screw hole. The only thing Ford had was a revised design so that is what the dealer installed. The next winter it too broke. Again Ford replaced it and again a now third design was used and it could take going through cold weather. In that car's case there was original and two different replacements UNDER THE SAME SALES NUMBER in less than two years.

Today it must be terribly confusing for car owners and restorers to wade through all the descriptions sellers use.   I suspect is in part individual frames of reference. If for example somebody takes the effort, which can be enormous, to create a really authentic "replacement or reproduction" and it takes them ten years to sell all of them, then to him everything they didn't sell immediately became their new old stock or new old replacement stock.  Maybe somebody bought some of those parts but for any number of reasons didn't use them, then them they might be new old stock. The situation I run into hunting Cobra parts are brand new replacement parts being sold in an estate sale situation. The wife, son, brother, et alii only know that part was purchased in the past and never used so top them it is new old stock even if it is a custom designed performance aftermarket part.

In summary, speaking solely for myself I do not rely on what sellers advertise parts as.  It is up to me to identify what is for sale.

Dan
#521
SAAC Forum Discussion Area / Re: Service Replacement
February 21, 2018, 10:57:26 AM
Quote from: 69mach351w on February 20, 2018, 08:54:51 PM
Thanks Mr. Case.  Your description is appreciated.
And some wonder where this forum is heading!!!

Your welcome. Dan
#522
SAAC Forum Discussion Area / Re: Service Replacement
February 20, 2018, 06:03:49 PM
I'll take a shot at a shortened version of what I send to Cobra owners and restorers. I have been around the "restoration" of old cars since 1961 and got my first training on 'this is original and that is not' during that summer at a national Antique Automobile Club of America meet (they were meets back then not shows).


Genuine parts pulled from production runs at the time the car was built for service needs. They were New Stock (NS) at that point in time and sometime later they were considered New Old Stock (NOS). As soon as some reason changed them such that the "original" design, revision level, or version is not made anymore NS becomes NOS. Prior to the 1960s up Corvette and Mustang owners getting into the business a New Old Stock (NOS) 1963 (pick a part) part was actually made in 1963 during production runs and it was just fate that directed it to miss an assembly line and get into a service part package. In industry, almost any large scale industry including automotive ones, between 5% and 20% of parts made during the original production period are set aside for normal service and warrantee work. The more likely the part will fail or be damaged or worn out the higher the percentage is often set aside and distributed through the service channel. Most big companies have engineers that determine risks and likelyhood of requirements. These are "assembly line" parts because they are what the car assembly lines used. In America, large numbers of "lunch pail" parts left the plants of part makers and car assemblers. What does one plan to do with dozens of new engine ground wires that accidently found their way back to your house? (I used that example because a few weeks ago on a trip to Michigan I came across a cache of engine ground wires that walked away circa 1964.)  Sometimes part over runs get left over at the assembly lines or the supplier's plant and the O.E.M. doesn't want them. These "assembly line" parts often end up in the hands of parts dealers. A friend of mine, at the end of each production year, use to buy at pennies on the dollar left over Corvette parts from the St. Louis assembly plant and their suppliers and then sold them through his parts business. Note: Because of design level changes, different suppliers for different assembly plants, and supplier changes all "assembly line" parts even within a given year are not automatically all the same.



An OEM service part made for an earlier application. This use to be the New Replacement Stock (NRS) designation. This was maybe a 1965 design/revision part being sold to service let's say a 1963 car. After these parts get a couple years old they are New Old Replacement Stock (NORS). These may or may not be the original supplier, tooling, manufacturing processes, and or materials. They "will work". The vast majority of old new parts you are likely to come across will probably fit into this category.  This is let's say Ford having runs of 1965 Mustang front bumpers made as required for many years after the last new 1965 Mustang left an assembly line. The day they were made they are NRS and after some period of time they become NORS.  Major car makers must supply something that works for in most cases ten years. The industry I worked in had to supply parts that would work for seven years. The important details were that the original specifications didn't have to be met unless it had safety or emissions requirements, that warrantee didn't have to be the same, didn't have to use the same tools or methods, didn't have to use the same materials, didn't have to use the same supplier / maker, and didn't even have to be made in the same country.  Replacement parts could be made just like "originals" but they didn't have to be. Said another way, same sales number between let's say a April 1965 made part and a April 1975 made part but other than fit the application and work they didn't have to legally be the same. I use an example: 1966 MUSTANG GT350 fuel caps. By the late 1970s they were obsolete from Ford's service organization. One person started a campaign to bring them back. He started ordering caps from at least one Ford dealer. He advertised in print for as many people were interested in new caps to do the same. It took a while but with enough back orders Ford commissioned runs of caps to be made. The "new" caps came in blue and white Ford service packaged and under casual inspection looked 'original'. Then people started comparing the NRS caps with originals still on cars and figured out that the NRS ones were not a 100% match to "assembly line" parts.  Today those replacement fuel caps made in the late 1970s and beyond are NORS parts.


#523
Quote from: Cobra Ned on February 20, 2018, 11:03:21 AM
Dan, I've got 3073 stamped on the collar just inboard of the steering box on my COX car. The corresponding collar on the right is obscured and I can't get close enough to read it.

Thanks Ned. That is the main part of the LH Drive assembly number stamped on the unit. There should be an assembly date close by. The number in the AC Cars and Ford/Shelby Bill Of Material is one character longer than that for some reason. Cam Gears Ltd provided the rack and pinion units, intermediate shaft assemblies, and the steering column assembly less switches (AC Cars added switch gear).  The hole in may database is the model number of the RH Drive assembly.

I do collect assembly dates of any original production rack I come across.
#524
CSX 2000 Series / Re: American Racing Wheels for Cobras
February 18, 2018, 04:56:47 PM
Quote from: CSX2259 on February 18, 2018, 02:53:03 PM
The hidden lug nut style wheel backside would look like the third photo down, the bolts threaded into the wheel itself.

+1 The designs were bolts threaded into magnesium or into long shank lug steel nuts.

When the prototype 1965 MUSTANG GT350 race car was first completed and tested (SFM5R002) it also used the same lug nuts. When research for that car's restoration was in progress I reverse engineered the design into a set of drawings for the restoration team in case they didn't find any new old stock ones or enough new old stock ones. These are the general views I created but they illustrate the threading in the nuts.

The washers are captured. They have to be pressed on but will free turn once in the undercuts made for them.



#525
CSX 2000 Series / Re: American Racing Wheels for Cobras
February 18, 2018, 01:46:48 PM
Quote from: werthie on February 18, 2018, 01:38:43 PM
Good article, Dan . . . Thank you!

alan
csx2563


Thank you and you are welcome.