SAAC Forum

  DONT LOWBALL ME! I KNOW WHAT I GOT! 

Quote from: Side-Oilers on January 02, 2024, 11:01:20 PM
So, how would that guy referenced in the first post refer to a Pontiac V8 from the 1960s/70s?

326, 350, 389, 400, 428, 455.  Which are small blocks and which are big blocks? 

Answer: None are either.  They're all the same block-size Pontiac V8s.

What else do they all have in common?

All real Pontiac V8's (not corporate engines) since 1955 have had the same bore spacing. From the 287 (1955) and 317 (1956) all the way up to the 455 (1970).

He did. I didn't want to muddy up this discussion with Pontiac. Although, one can attempt make the argument that 265 and 301 Pontiacs are small blocks (lower deck height but same bore spacing) and 326 to 455 are big blocks!  Grab your weapon of choice and CHAAAAAARGE!!!!!!

Quote from: 98SVT - was 06GT on January 02, 2024, 12:44:58 PM
The only definition that shows up on Google is that a BB is bigger and heavier than a SB. Each manufacturer had 2 different V8 engine families a big and a small. C.I. can't really enter it since 427 small blocks are around now. Even the FE that started as a 332 was smaller than a raised deck little Ford that started at 221 and was very common in 351 and even some 400s. The original Chevy Big Block was 348/409 The 396/427 was later and I'm not sure if we should discuss its canted valves as the inspiration for the Boss & Cleveland heads......
Now for the real question - was that a 427 Cobra or really one with a 428 that found its way into most of them?
Finally you can ponder if we should classify the 170/200 Ford 6 cylinder as a small block and the 240/300 inch one as a big block......

CSX-3285, The Hollywood Knights Cobra. Did it start life with a 427 or a 428? Either way, a BIG BLOCK!

People can start an argument over anything. A while back, I posted a comment on a U Tube video about a car being "an honest to goodness real 427 Big Block Cobra". Someone chimed in and said an FE is not a big block because (his exact statement copied and pasted) "technically it's not but if it makes you feel better the FE is a big block happy now 1958 Chevy 348 bore spacing 4.840 1958 Chrysler 350 bore spacing 4.800 1958 ford MEL 383 bore spacing 4.900 1958 Ford FE 332 bore spacing 4.630 sorry but the MEL was fords big block in 1958 1968 the FF was fords bb I've  ask before I'll ask again show me 1 FORD add calling an FE a bb Mercury called an FE a big scorching 428 but not a bb . A big block technically must have a bore spacing of 4.800 or greater but call it what you want a lot of people call an engine with a blower super charged  but they're also technically wrong" He also claimed to work in a machine shop for 30 years. Someone else said he was wrong, and they went back and forth.
Do you think he is right or wrong? I personally consider an FE a Big Block.

If memory serves, early Cougar GTEs (as well as 135 Mustangs) used C8AE-J heads. Later ones used C8OE-N heads. Both drilled for 14 bolt 390 style exhaust manifolds. C7AE-F P.I. intake was used. Same as 68 GT500 & 135 Mustangs.
https://www.mustangtek.com/heads/C8AE-6090-J.html
https://www.mustangtek.com/Intake/C7AE-9425-F.html
https://www.mustangtek.com/exhaust/C7OE-9431-A.html

Not mine. Saw on FB Marketplace.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1442337572977402/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post

Something like this? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQGAaCSFlJI   Bullitt Telecopier Scene
Perfect shot at 48 seconds.

Come on guys! My comments were just light-hearted fun! No need to start a flow comparison! .  It's also cool watching the guy write the numbers in the Valley of the cylinder sizes.

Typical production pre 66 head vs typical production 66 & up head (428 CJ & 427 MR not included). Who cares if they don't flow 300 cfm? They look cool when you pop off that intake! Nuff Said! (Sorry. I was watching Oceans 13 yesterday.)

That video never gets old! Love watching the FEs get made. At 17.15, look at the size of the ports on those heads. Gotta love those pre 66 heads!

Okay. So that puts a dent in my theory.  The A. O. Smith trip starts after the Ford release date. That being said, it's still only 38 days total between May 8th and June 16th between release and sale date. Add transport time to A.O. Smith and back to Dearborn and then to the dealership and it becomes a far stretch for the car to go from a Boss 302 to a Shelby and back to a Boss 302 then be sold in that amount of time. So the next logical questions would be how long did the conversion to a Shelby take at A. O. Smith. Then how long to convert it back to a Boss 302. I'm thinking Kevin Marti should be consulted about the statement on the Marti report to see if he has acual proof (is in paperwork in his files) this car became a Shelby at some point of he just assumed it was based on the 4 in the vin. Also, if this car was a prototype Boss 302 Shelby, why wasn't it treated like other prototypes like being crushed or ending up in the employee lot for sale etc. No, it was delivered to a regular dealer for sale.
Again, I have no agenda in this. To me it's just an interesting puzzle to solve.

Quote from: shelbymann1970 on December 17, 2023, 05:40:01 AM

Quote from: 427hunter on December 16, 2023, 09:45:22 PM

Quote from: 68stangcjfb on December 16, 2023, 09:02:06 PM
I think the Marti report tells the tale. The car was built May 6th. It was released May 8th. It was sold to the original owner as a Boss 302 June 16th. It would be physically impossible for it to have been built in Dearborn as a Boss 302 (we all know Shelby's started life as Mustangs at Dearborn, Metuchen & San Jose), shipped  to AO Smith, converted into a Shelby, shipped back to Dearborn, converted back into a Boss 302, then released to the dealer in 2 days. I'm just looking at it logically with the facts that are presented. Am I wrong?

Your going to have to explain why you think "it's physically impossible for it to have been built in Dearborn as a boss 302" - it is a boss 302 and was built at Dearborn.

The car was never turned into a shelby by A.O. Smith it never went there, it was dressed up like a shelby after it was restored by the owner at that time. The car is coded 48 which means Shelby mustang - but left Dearborn as a boss 302.

You are getting ahead of yourself. You took a partial sentence out of context from 68stangcjfb. go read the RED I noted and it makes sense just the built may6 and released May8th. To me that is the most damning evidence on it. We are all in agreement on what the car is. Unlike most of those here I had seen and gone over this car in 1984. Followed this car through subsequent owners. As a 70 Shelby owner and one who had restored numerous 69-70  Mustangs up until that point and was in the process of restoring  1970 #3052 I pretty much had a handle on what was correct on dash vins and such. I had probably up to that point  owned at least a dozen 69s.

+1

I think the Marti report tells the tale. The car was built May 6th. It was released May 8th. It was sold to the original owner as a Boss 302 June 16th. It would be physically impossible for it to have been built in Dearborn as a Boss 302 (we all know Shelby's started life as Mustangs at Dearborn, Metuchen & San Jose), shipped  to AO Smith, converted into a Shelby, shipped back to Dearborn, converted back into a Boss 302, then released to the dealer in 2 days. I'm just looking at it logically with the facts that are presented. Am I wrong?

Exactly how many Shelby's were built after this car? Maybe they were just filling out the orders that were already received.

I was just looking at the dates on the Marti report. I'm thinking some time between April 7th when the order was received and May 6th when the car was built, someone at Ford who thought it would be a good idea to build a Boss 302 Shelby got word from their boss that they were killing the Shelby program and remaining cars would be restamped as 1970 models. There clearly was no need to explore the possibility of a Boss 302 Shelby anymore but the paperwork for the car was already in the pipeline so it just got built as a Boss 302. Maybe they tried to change the paperwork hence the 15-day late build time? Is it known at what date Ford decided to end Shelby production?