Author Topic: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?  (Read 3230 times)

Jbrooks

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Doing an engine rebuild On the GT350, and I had a new 157 pin ring gear installed on the flywheel (found some worn teeth during the year down).  I just tried to do the break in on the motor, and I found my starter is grinding when I try to start the car (tried twice and rotated the flywheel to see if it would help the starter engage better)  Pulled the starter and found the bendix teeth to be good and luckily the flywheel showed no signs of damage. To get the car started tonight, I tried a rebuilt starter, but it was 3/100Ē bigger than my original starter and didnít mate up to the flex plate. Has anyone tried a mini starter on their 289?  If so, which one did you go with? 

Thanks in advance for any help!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 08:47:01 AM by Jbrooks »
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Bob Gaines

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2020, 10:41:10 PM »
Doing an engine rebuild On the GT350, and I had a new 157 pin ring gear installed on the flywheel (found some worn teeth during the year down).  I just tried to do the break in on the motor, and I found my starter is grinding when I try to start the car (tried twice and rotated the flywheel to see if it would help the starter engage better)  Pulled the starter and found the bendix teeth to be good and luckily the flywheel showed no signs of damage. To get the car started tonight, I tried a rebuilt starter, but it was 3/100Ē bigger than my original starter and didnít mate up to the flex plate. Has anyone tried a mini starter on their 289?  If so, which one did you go with? 

Thanks in advance for any help!
I assume you meant engine block plate. Some aftermarket starters do not fit well and the block plate has to be massaged with a die grinder so that it will fit.  67 on up shows two different starters in the MPC.  One starter for a 4 speed and one for a auto. That sounds like that could be your problem. Can you take some pictures of your starter and post them? The nose cone section portion that is visible once mounted will tell which one you have 4 speed or auto starter. 
Bob Gaines,Shelby Enthusiast, Shelby Collector , Shelby Concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Jbrooks

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2020, 11:14:39 PM »
Itís been a long day working on the car today, and I forgot to mention that itís a 4 speed. The replacement had the same similar nose, but the diameter where it fits against the block plate was 3/100Ē too big. I tried taking the nose piece of my original starter and putting it in the replacement starter, but it wouldnít fit. Here is a picture of the nose section of my original starter.
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pbf777

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2020, 11:47:12 AM »
Has anyone tried a mini starter on their 289?  If so, which one did you go with? 


     It doesn't look like the original, it's probably not the cheapest thing in the market place, but so far we haven't been let down by the Ford Performance High Torque Mini Starters; and what I prefer to sell (when applicable), as I can't say the same for a number of other brands products. 

     Part number: M-11000-B51, for automatic and manuals other than the 164 tooth flywheels.
                           M-11000-MT164, for manual transmission with 164 tooth flywheels.

     Scott.

Bob Gaines

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2020, 12:45:13 PM »
Itís been a long day working on the car today, and I forgot to mention that itís a 4 speed. The replacement had the same similar nose, but the diameter where it fits against the block plate was 3/100Ē too big. I tried taking the nose piece of my original starter and putting it in the replacement starter, but it wouldnít fit. Here is a picture of the nose section of my original starter.
You have to open up the block plate opening with a die grinder in order to get the after market equivalent starter to work.But in your case that most likely will not solve your problem.The starter in the picture looks to be for a 67 and up automatic. The automatic starter will work most of the time which is confirmed by what you have working before. The change in the flywheel during your rebuild must have been just enough of a difference that the automatic starter wouldn't catch the teeth anymore. The four speed starter bendix goes in further compared to the automatic version. The problem most likely is that in 67 production year you have a starter nose and bendix for the 4 speed and a different nose and bendix for a auto according to the MPC.  That is what I suspected I would see when I ask for a picture given the description you posted. Original 67 and up 4 speed starters are harder to find now. I keep them on the shelf for concours type restorations.  I have seen some aftermarket starters that are meant for four speed applications. If you order the starter that pbf777 recommended be sure order the 4 speed one .
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pbf777

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2020, 04:48:12 PM »
I had a new 157 pin ring gear installed on the flywheel

      This statement implies that the same flywheel is in use but solely with a new ring gear; if mounted properly, and of correct engineering execution (CHINA?) then this is not the issue. 

      The difference between the two starter applications is whether what is often described as the "offset", this being a distance from the back of the block to the face of the ring gear, is either 3/4" (generally auto flexplates & 157T manual flywheels, 3 or 4 spd.) or 3/8" (generally 164T manual flywheels only)  or the closest to as measured.  To the best of my remembrance the only application for the shorter 3/8" offset is the 164T flywheels, most notably in O.E. installations with the cast iron bellhousings, which were configured with a boss cast inside the starter nose relief which precluded the possibility of mounting the longer 3/4" nose starter.               ;)


Quote
I tried a rebuilt starter, but it was 3/100Ē bigger than my original starter and didnít mate up to the flex plate.
You have to open up the block plate opening with a die grinder in order to get the after market equivalent starter to work.


       STOP!  The only instances I've experienced that with O.E.M. components that it was necessary to "clean-up" the starter hole register would have been from some apparent damage inflicted upon the separator plate.  After all, this is the "register" for the purpose of properly locating the starter in relation to the ring gear, and if modified, well as I'm often stating: your the new engineer!  Yes, sometimes the alloy nose sections of the starter may require a little "clean-up", but if notably, greatly, obviously the wrong size, then take the offshore manufactured, piece of shyt back to where you found it!  After all, if they couldn't that right, what else is not going to measure up!          :o

      Scott.

Bob Gaines

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2020, 06:03:05 PM »
I had a new 157 pin ring gear installed on the flywheel

      This statement implies that the same flywheel is in use but solely with a new ring gear; if mounted properly, and of correct engineering execution (CHINA?) then this is not the issue. 

      The difference between the two starter applications is whether what is often described as the "offset", this being a distance from the back of the block to the face of the ring gear, is either 3/4" (generally auto flexplates & 157T manual flywheels, 3 or 4 spd.) or 3/8" (generally 164T manual flywheels only)  or the closest to as measured.  To the best of my remembrance the only application for the shorter 3/8" offset is the 164T flywheels, most notably in O.E. installations with the cast iron bellhousings, which were configured with a boss cast inside the starter nose relief which precluded the possibility of mounting the longer 3/4" nose starter.               ;)


Quote
I tried a rebuilt starter, but it was 3/100Ē bigger than my original starter and didnít mate up to the flex plate.
You have to open up the block plate opening with a die grinder in order to get the after market equivalent starter to work.


       STOP!  The only instances I've experienced that with O.E.M. components that it was necessary to "clean-up" the starter hole register would have been from some apparent damage inflicted upon the separator plate.  After all, this is the "register" for the purpose of properly locating the starter in relation to the ring gear, and if modified, well as I'm often stating: your the new engineer!  Yes, sometimes the alloy nose sections of the starter may require a little "clean-up", but if notably, greatly, obviously the wrong size, then take the offshore manufactured, piece of shyt back to where you found it!  After all, if they couldn't that right, what else is not going to measure up!          :o

      Scott.
FYI aftermarket is many times not the same quality as OEM. I was not saying that it was the best thing to do when messaging the block plate just that is what has to done to get it to work. Some people are looking for more then one way to skin a cat. Also a cheaper or more available starter might be a priority for someone want to get the job done. Not a perfect world .If it was they all would fit.   
Bob Gaines,Shelby Enthusiast, Shelby Collector , Shelby Concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Bob Gaines

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2020, 06:14:54 PM »
 If everything was exactly the same then the starter that previously worked would continue to work when fitted to the rebuilt engine. Something logically has changed . In the case my beat is on a slight change with the new flywheel ring installed. I don't think it is a problem in this case as long as you use the correct starter. ;)
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pbf777

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2020, 08:39:55 PM »
Some people are looking for more then one way to skin a cat.


     What, you don't like cats?               :o

     When did you first find yourself in anger over cats?   You know, it was your fault if you left the vehicle's window open and the little kitty used the interior for a litter box!              ::) 

     Maybe we need P.E.T.A. to be monitoring this forum?            :-\

     B.T.W., do you play the violin?            ::)

     Scott.           

Bob Gaines

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2020, 09:39:02 PM »
Some people are looking for more then one way to skin a cat.


     What, you don't like cats?               :o

     When did you first find yourself in anger over cats?   You know, it was your fault if you left the vehicle's window open and the little kitty used the interior for a litter box!              ::) 

     Maybe we need P.E.T.A. to be monitoring this forum?            :-\

     B.T.W., do you play the violin?            ::)

     Scott.           
No cats were harmed in the making of my post. Just a innocent turn of phrase not meant to upset cat people on purpose. I will try and be more politically correct next time .Sorry. :)
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ramrace

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2020, 10:18:07 PM »
Sounds like a hairy situation to me!

Don Johnston

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2020, 11:21:03 PM »
I like some cats, mostly cat-a-logs.  They help find things like starters and other parts. ;D

The Going Thing

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2020, 12:24:36 AM »
Well, who says cats don't like Shelbys. I caught him red-handed trying to steal my car! 8)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 12:30:46 AM by The Going Thing »

Bigfoot

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2020, 08:11:49 AM »
A hungry Cobra will eat a cat.
Just sayin ...
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Jbrooks

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Re: 289 Starter needs to be changed out, anyone try a mini starter?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2020, 08:46:08 AM »
 
Has anyone tried a mini starter on their 289?  If so, which one did you go with? 


     It doesn't look like the original, it's probably not the cheapest thing in the market place, but so far we haven't been let down by the Ford Performance High Torque Mini Starters; and what I prefer to sell (when applicable), as I can't say the same for a number of other brands products. 

     Part number: M-11000-B51, for automatic and manuals other than the 164 tooth flywheels.
                           M-11000-MT164, for manual transmission with 164 tooth flywheels.

     Scott.

Thanks for all the help from everyone.  During the engine rebuild process, I was so focused on what was being done to the block that I had the wrong ring installed on my flywheel (157 instead of 164) at the machine shop, and I missed it.  That would explain why my starter is now being an issue.

Since I have the rebuilt motor and transmission already back in the car (getting the T pan to clear the radiator support was something else, I'm not pulling to the motor to change out the flywheel). 

With that said, I have ordered the Ford Performance 157 tooth mini-starter listed above, thanks Scott!



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