67 smog

[J_Speegle]

I understand your point regarding the "slippery slope" of modifications, but when we are dealing with a legally-mandated retrofit to be able to drive the car on public roads in the State of California, it seems that should be allowed as an exception to the general definition of "original" in councours.  Perhaps that would be allowable with written documentation of the required smog retrofit.

Agree this would be in contrast with the intended goal or representing how the cars were originally built. Their ability to be used/driven is something that is not part of the goal. Another challenge would be the retrofit - which ones would be ok or how many retrofits one could have.  There are classes at some shows and organizations that include the worked "driven" in the class title that one might make suggestions to and some allow for safety and other requirements/retrofits but they almost always have some limitations and truthfully at some point, if you are one of those that are concerned with safety, your and your family's safety should be worth losing a few points at a car show IMHO

Currently it cars can be returned to factory emission standards and do not require retrofitting. Chances of being caught in a roadside random test are small so even those that have modified their cars are not as likely to get questioned as years past since they did away with the bi-annual test

Not sure why anyone would still be running the retrofits except out of having something different for people to point out and discuss of the engine compartment were open

[1968]

I understand your point regarding the "slippery slope" of modifications, but when we are dealing with a legally-mandated retrofit to be able to drive the car on public roads in the State of California, it seems that should be allowed as an exception to the general definition of "original" in councours.  Perhaps that would be allowable with written documentation of the required smog retrofit.

Agree this would be in contrast with the intended goal or representing how the cars were originally built. Their ability to be used/driven is something that is not part of the goal. Another challenge would be the retrofit - which ones would be ok or how many retrofits one could have.  There are classes at some shows and organizations that include the worked "driven" in the class title that one might make suggestions to and some allow for safety and other requirements/retrofits but they almost always have some limitations and truthfully at some point, if you are one of those that are concerned with safety, your and your family's safety should be worth losing a few points at a car show IMHO

Currently it cars can be returned to factory emission standards and do not require retrofitting. Chances of being caught in a roadside random test are small so even those that have modified their cars are not as likely to get questioned as years past since they did away with the bi-annual test

Not sure why anyone would still be running the retrofits except out of having something different for people to point out and discuss of the engine compartment were open

I get your point, but the "appropriate/acceptable" smog retrofit is pretty simple:  Thermactor equipment removed, Ford plugs installed in air holes in smog heads.  It is my understanding that was what was done, or at least what was supposed to be done.

[J_Speegle]

I get your point, but the "appropriate/acceptable" smog retrofit is pretty simple:  Thermactor equipment removed, Ford plugs installed in air holes in smog heads.  It is my understanding that was what was done, or at least what was supposed to be done.

Since we're discussion leaving cars as they were required to be retrofitted, removing the system was not a retrofit IMHO respectfully you off by allot.

Removing the system and placing 8 plugs in the heads was not the legal nor ok retrofit. That was simply a modification not a retrofit.

For Calif, for example, it was illegal to remove the system and over the years the stated would require more systems, parts and modifications to try and stay in compliance to a changing and rising emission standard. To day the systems are still required though the not as enforced as it has been in the past though the legislation continues to try and reinstate the annual or bi-annual tests every year or two

Depending on the year there things as simple as the car kit while other period could require you to drill a 1/4-1/2" hole in the intake manifold to retrofit a check valve and an aftermarket control system if the factory emissions had been removed or in some cases register a car that originally didn't have a Calif emission system. Some years part of the retrofit required a closed element air cleaner in place of an open element air cleaner.

Communicated and tried to work with the state BAR over the decades trying to even just let us put back the original systems and let it be, but as stated, over the decades, that was not enough so many owners and hot rodders could be found going to great lengths to skirt the system.

Have a fair collection of the state emission manuals and testing manuals. When the state requirement for bi-annual testing was ended I was one of three speakers that spoke to the committee exploring the possibility and started to get the change passes. So, I think I have a fair grasp of the history of the effects of state requirements on our specific historical vehicles and I think I have some experience in the subject

[1968]

I get your point, but the "appropriate/acceptable" smog retrofit is pretty simple:  Thermactor equipment removed, Ford plugs installed in air holes in smog heads.  It is my understanding that was what was done, or at least what was supposed to be done.

Since we're discussion leaving cars as they were required to be retrofitted, removing the system was not a retrofit IMHO respectfully you off by allot.

Removing the system and placing 8 plugs in the heads was not the legal nor ok retrofit. That was simply a modification not a retrofit.

For Calif, for example, it was illegal to remove the system and over the years the stated would require more systems, parts and modifications to try and stay in compliance to a changing and rising emission standard. To day the systems are still required though the not as enforced as it has been in the past though the legislation continues to try and reinstate the annual or bi-annual tests every year or two

Depending on the year there things as simple as the car kit while other period could require you to drill a 1/4-1/2" hole in the intake manifold to retrofit a check valve and an aftermarket control system if the factory emissions had been removed or in some cases register a car that originally didn't have a Calif emission system. Some years part of the retrofit required a closed element air cleaner in place of an open element air cleaner.

Communicated and tried to work with the state BAR over the decades trying to even just let us put back the original systems and let it be, but as stated, over the decades, that was not enough so many owners and hot rodders could be found going to great lengths to skirt the system.

Have a fair collection of the state emission manuals and testing manuals. When the state requirement for bi-annual testing was ended I was one of three speakers that spoke to the committee exploring the possibility and started to get the change passes. So, I think I have a fair grasp of the history of the effects of state requirements on our specific historical vehicles and I think I have some experience in the subject

Sorry, but first-hand experience tells me that you are incorrect about what happened with California emissions over the years, and with regard to the current law for 1975 and older vehicles.

[1968]

I get your point, but the "appropriate/acceptable" smog retrofit is pretty simple:  Thermactor equipment removed, Ford plugs installed in air holes in smog heads.  It is my understanding that was what was done, or at least what was supposed to be done.

Since we're discussion leaving cars as they were required to be retrofitted, removing the system was not a retrofit IMHO respectfully you off by allot.

Removing the system and placing 8 plugs in the heads was not the legal nor ok retrofit. That was simply a modification not a retrofit.

To elaborate on this point, while I have no way of proving that that was done in all California county air districts at all times, I have anecdotal evidence that it certainly was done in at least some county air districts for at least some period of time to reduce NOx emissions.

[J_Speegle]

To elaborate on this point, while I have no way of proving that that was done in all California county air districts at all times, I have anecdotal evidence that it certainly was done in at least some county air districts for at least some period of time to reduce NOx emissions.

So according to your source removing the system helped reduce emissions?  Could you provide the date, section number of the document or other details for that?

Like typical government systems you can get to very different answers for the same question based on interpretation on the same day

[J_Speegle]

Sorry, but first-hand experience tells me that you are incorrect about what happened with California emissions over the years, and with regard to the current law for 1975 and older vehicles.

Sorry but maybe we just need to agree to disagree. Not really an important hill at the moment and does not relate directly to the discussions.

Apparently, we have had different experiences as well as current understanding  not a big surprise given the state and the system. Government employee for over thirty years.

[1968]

To elaborate on this point, while I have no way of proving that that was done in all California county air districts at all times, I have anecdotal evidence that it certainly was done in at least some county air districts for at least some period of time to reduce NOx emissions.

So according to your source removing the system helped reduce emissions?  Could you provide the date, section number of the document or other details for that?

Like typical government systems you can get to very different answers for the same question based on interpretation on the same day

Yes, you are right in that there were possibly inconsistent enforcement and compliance methods over time and by location.  This is particularly likely since California regulated air quality standards by county air districts and their varying corresponding levels of compliance with the ambient standards for criteria pollutants such as NOx.  Also, the smog science was very new in the late 1960's and early 1970's, and went through a gradual evolution, including the later consensus that the early Thermactor setup did more harm than good in terms of NOx emissions.  See Reply #8 and Reply #11 in this thread.

An interesting discussion, and it seems relevant to the question of what point in time to choose whether to reinstall Thermactor on a car.  If the time chosen is "as new" for a California car, then yes, it clearly would have been on there.  But the only point I was trying to make is that there are legitimate explanations as to why Thermactor might not be on the car, other than just that a previous owner did not like it.

I liken the removal of the Thermactor system to the gas tank protective cover that was installed over the original gas tank of our Pinto back in the day.  Both measures were taken to address a defectively designed original factory part.  You may disagree, but that is a matter of opinion.

[shelbymann1970]

The incorrect assumptions are yours.

Specific engines were federally certified before 1968 production started and did not change for Shelbys during the course of the model year. The vast majority of all 68 Shelbys were built after January 1, those that were built prior still had the smog controls.

This is a documented fact. Factory build sheets show the same engine configurations during the entire production run from September 1967 to July 1968.

Maybe not federally mandated, but Ford adopted to the coming changes so they did have to change during production.

Unfortunately, your internet research does not match the reality of production. The only 1968 Shelbys built w/o smog were GT350 automatics.

What someone did after the fact is irrelevant to the historical correctness of the cars.

Nope.  You are missing the point.  You questioned how California could require the removal of federally required smog equipment.  Whether the car was a 1967 or 1968 model does not matter, as long as it was manufactured prior to January 1, 1968.  I have personal family experience with a 1968 Mustang in Southern California that, while it was still required to be smog inspected in connection with the annual registration renewal, was required to be smog retrofitted.  The Thermactor air holes were plugged and the remaining equipment was removed prior to smog inspection approval.  The car had a manufacture date of November 1967.  Was the car no longer "original"?  Under concours standards, yes, but it was "legal" in California after the retrofit.

I bought a 67 FB 289 3 speed car that the owner bought less M/T and bought a 67 Cougar 390 4 speed out of a junkyard down in San Diego. He had the 390 rebuilt and installed. Painted the car and had it smog inspected with the working 390 smog on it. He brought the car back from California and then sold it due to a divorce. He said the smog worked as it passed emissions. That was 1988. Since the engine was fresh(guy even drove the car back to Michigan from SD) the smog came off as easy as you can pull one off an FE. Like I said in a previous post I sold it to a 67 GT500 owner. So if I'm reading your post correctly how would this Mustang be put through the smog test and not make the owner retrofit his car before issuing a registration? The only reason I know about his test is that I asked him why it was still on there and he said it had to be to pass emissions in Calif.

[1968]

The incorrect assumptions are yours.

Specific engines were federally certified before 1968 production started and did not change for Shelbys during the course of the model year. The vast majority of all 68 Shelbys were built after January 1, those that were built prior still had the smog controls.

This is a documented fact. Factory build sheets show the same engine configurations during the entire production run from September 1967 to July 1968.

Maybe not federally mandated, but Ford adopted to the coming changes so they did have to change during production.

Unfortunately, your internet research does not match the reality of production. The only 1968 Shelbys built w/o smog were GT350 automatics.

What someone did after the fact is irrelevant to the historical correctness of the cars.

Nope.  You are missing the point.  You questioned how California could require the removal of federally required smog equipment.  Whether the car was a 1967 or 1968 model does not matter, as long as it was manufactured prior to January 1, 1968.  I have personal family experience with a 1968 Mustang in Southern California that, while it was still required to be smog inspected in connection with the annual registration renewal, was required to be smog retrofitted.  The Thermactor air holes were plugged and the remaining equipment was removed prior to smog inspection approval.  The car had a manufacture date of November 1967.  Was the car no longer "original"?  Under concours standards, yes, but it was "legal" in California after the retrofit.

I bought a 67 FB 289 3 speed car that the owner bought less M/T and bought a 67 Cougar 390 4 speed out of a junkyard down in San Diego. He had the 390 rebuilt and installed. Painted the car and had it smog inspected with the working 390 smog on it. He brought the car back from California and then sold it due to a divorce. He said the smog worked as it passed emissions. That was 1988. Since the engine was fresh(guy even drove the car back to Michigan from SD) the smog came off as easy as you can pull one off an FE. Like I said in a previous post I sold it to a 67 GT500 owner. So if I'm reading your post correctly how would this Mustang be put through the smog test and not make the owner retrofit his car before issuing a registration? The only reason I know about his test is that I asked him why it was still on there and he said it had to be to pass emissions in Calif.

1988?  Assuming your friend remembers correctly, by that late date you can probably attribute it to the tech's unfamiliarity with the then 21-year old engine, or he/she did not do his/her job correctly.  Well before 1988, our cars had been retrofitted following vehicle inspections.  I had a buddy with a 1967 Mustang who also had the same retrofit applied (Thermactor removed, holes plugged).  But my experience is with only one California county.  I have no idea what was going on in other counties.

[shelbymann1970]

The incorrect assumptions are yours.

Specific engines were federally certified before 1968 production started and did not change for Shelbys during the course of the model year. The vast majority of all 68 Shelbys were built after January 1, those that were built prior still had the smog controls.

This is a documented fact. Factory build sheets show the same engine configurations during the entire production run from September 1967 to July 1968.

Maybe not federally mandated, but Ford adopted to the coming changes so they did have to change during production.

Unfortunately, your internet research does not match the reality of production. The only 1968 Shelbys built w/o smog were GT350 automatics.

What someone did after the fact is irrelevant to the historical correctness of the cars.

Nope.  You are missing the point.  You questioned how California could require the removal of federally required smog equipment.  Whether the car was a 1967 or 1968 model does not matter, as long as it was manufactured prior to January 1, 1968.  I have personal family experience with a 1968 Mustang in Southern California that, while it was still required to be smog inspected in connection with the annual registration renewal, was required to be smog retrofitted.  The Thermactor air holes were plugged and the remaining equipment was removed prior to smog inspection approval.  The car had a manufacture date of November 1967.  Was the car no longer "original"?  Under concours standards, yes, but it was "legal" in California after the retrofit.

I bought a 67 FB 289 3 speed car that the owner bought less M/T and bought a 67 Cougar 390 4 speed out of a junkyard down in San Diego. He had the 390 rebuilt and installed. Painted the car and had it smog inspected with the working 390 smog on it. He brought the car back from California and then sold it due to a divorce. He said the smog worked as it passed emissions. That was 1988. Since the engine was fresh(guy even drove the car back to Michigan from SD) the smog came off as easy as you can pull one off an FE. Like I said in a previous post I sold it to a 67 GT500 owner. So if I'm reading your post correctly how would this Mustang be put through the smog test and not make the owner retrofit his car before issuing a registration? The only reason I know about his test is that I asked him why it was still on there and he said it had to be to pass emissions in Calif.

1988?  Assuming your friend remembers correctly, by that late date you can probably attribute it to the tech's unfamiliarity with the then 21-year old engine, or he/she did not do his/her job correctly.  Well before 1988, our cars had been retrofitted following vehicle inspections.  I had a buddy with a 1967 Mustang who also had the same retrofit applied (Thermactor removed, holes plugged).  But my experience is with only one California county.  I have no idea what was going on in other counties.

To be clear the guy bought the car(around 1987-88). had it painted and installed the engine and trans. Bought wheels. Had it inspected and then drove it to Michigan right after buying the wheels and tires. I bought it within a month of that so I would suspect the seller-in his 20s like me-had a pretty good recollection. Now me, on the other hand, am remembering what he said over 30 years ago and back then I didn't know  any state was doing cars that old(Mi was only doing it on newer cars and I had owned a few 428 CJ Mustangs by then with no smog on them  and smog exempt status). My 87 Grand National failed more than once and for asn extra 20 bucks-wink, wink- it passed!