Author Topic: Mini starter  (Read 938 times)

JessC

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Mini starter
« on: December 07, 2022, 10:43:55 PM »
I working on my clone and I'm using a ford mini starter.I don't like the idea having it hot all the time.Question is do people fuse this and  what type?  How to wire using harness to dash?
Thank you

Bob Gaines

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Re: Mini starter
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2022, 11:19:27 PM »
I working on my clone and I'm using a ford mini starter.I don't like the idea having it hot all the time.Question is do people fuse this and  what type?  How to wire using harness to dash?
Thank you
It is not typical to use a fuse to protect the starter.  I can't say I have ever even heard of someone running a fuse for the starter on a GT350/500,Mustang or Boss regardless of stock or race.When stock starters drag under load and heat the gear reduced starters are known to spin freely even under severe conditions. There is no need.  It would be interesting to know what even would be adequate given the huge amperage needed to run the starter under load conditions. I have not heard of problems arising with those gear reduced starters getting over heated even with being close to headers. You will find some that wrap the starter or the headers in heat insulating wrap for piece of mind with the starter. Forget about some kind of fuse for the starter is my advice.                       
Bob Gaines,Shelby Enthusiast, Shelby Collector , Shelby Concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

68GT350roadracer

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Re: Mini starter
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2022, 08:23:23 AM »
Just use your stock starter solenoid on the inner fender. Connecting hot lead that is normally hot on the gear reduction starter. To the post on the stock solenoid that goes to the stock starter. Use a jumper wire from stud on for hot lead on gear reduction starter to exciter wire of gear reduction starter.

pbf777

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Re: Mini starter
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2022, 10:43:39 AM »
Just use your stock starter solenoid on the inner fender. Connecting hot lead that is normally hot on the gear reduction starter. To the post on the stock solenoid that goes to the stock starter. Use a jumper wire from stud on for hot lead on gear reduction starter to exciter wire of gear reduction starter.


     DO NOT wire it this way! Yes it will work, sorta, but there will likely be repercussions for doing so, as this is incorrect!  Follow the instructions for proper wiring, and forget about the concern for a fuse.   ;)

     Scott.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 10:50:04 AM by pbf777 »

68GT350roadracer

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Re: Mini starter
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2022, 07:14:57 PM »
Been wiring them this way for years no promblems

pbf777

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Re: Mini starter
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2022, 08:20:23 PM »
Been wiring them this way for years no promblems

     Yes, I understand, but...............think of it like that guy (Roy) who had been sticking his head in the tigers' mouth for years, no problems, but then one day, the tiger (Mantacore) bit him!  :o

     It's always best to just follow the instructions (particularly with electrical wiring), or just don't complain when you do get bit,............. sooner or later!  ::)

     Scott.

68GT350roadracer

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Re: Mini starter
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2022, 07:53:18 AM »
Pbf777 all you are doing is taking a later model starter with the solenoid mounted to it.  They had the positive battery cable going directly to the solenoid mounted on the starter. I think that is why JessC said he did not like it hot all the time. It is on the vehicles that come from the factory with this starter. To use that starter, you just run the positive battery cable to the stock style solenoid on the inner fender. Then run the factory style starter cable to the solenoid on the Ford mini starter. Use a jumper wire to starter cable connection at mini starter to the exciter wire terminal on the mini starter. So that when the power goes to the mini starter it will engage the starter. Racers have been doing this for years.
Pbf777 in case I am misunderstanding how this works, can you please explain how this can cause a problem.

pbf777

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Re: Mini starter
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2022, 05:36:53 PM »
     O.K.,   :)

     Now, I'm not an engineering expert, but I have witnessed quite a few of these conversion installations of the "Mini-Starters" into these older applications over the decades of being in business, and the variations on the theme can prove quite interesting. Yours is the most common "wrong way to do it" and yes it most often will work, sorta.   ???

     The proper wiring procedure is to have a live voltage cable of sufficient ampere load capability that runs from the battery positive terminal directly to the starter solenoid's "BAT" terminal (the bigger stud & nut  ::)). Now in actual execution practice this cable is most often attached to the "BAT" side of the fenderwell mounted solenoid and the normal "battery" cable finishes the circuit. But should not be wired thru or switched by the fenderwell mounted solenoid; as first it is unnecessary complication and the additional switching garners greater resistance hence lesser cranking performance from the motor.

     B.T.W. We have noted that many of the currently available examples of these "old-style" fenderwell solenoids are not manufactured ('off-shore-shyt'!   ::)) or capable of carrying sufficient amperes as the old original examples.  Also the solenoids for use with the mini-starters were diode protected. This do to as for example, when the starter motor is powered and engaged into the flex-plate turning the engine over the electrical surge is in one direction, but the moment the engine fires, even with the shaft clutch, the shaft of the starter experiences loss of turning resistance and even a driving force that accelerates it, and this along with the inertia of the already spinning motor and related componentry, then the power is cut from the switch (this as one releases the key from the 'Crank' position moving to the 'Run'  position), there is the potential for a power reversal with the spinning armature which now acting as generator sends an electrical value back up the cable; and this in the E.F.I. vehicles was found to be potential damaging to the E.C.U.'s.   :(

     Then for the 12V "SWITCH" terminal on the starters' solenoid (the smaller stud & nut  ::)) should be routed to ignition/start/crank switching, which in typical retrofits such as these is to the fenderwell mounted solenoids' original starter lead lug/stud (which otherwise now is abandoned).  This involves the least sum of re-wiring though in other fitments routing to a true "Start/Crank" switch may be preferred.   ;)

     But this is not to be "jumped" to the battery/starter feed cable!  First concern with hitting both terminals simultaneously is the timing event of the rate to energize the intended as separate circuits of different deliveries, that of the solenoid and its' resultant function vs. energizing the field and armature of the motor and it's resultant function.  Next, would be that which was described previously of the voltage production after the key is released from the "Start" position; as if the solenoid is "jumped" to the "BAT" terminal then the potential voltage output supplied can keep the solenoid engaged and the starter gear engaged/stuck in the flex-plate, with the motor continuing to produce voltage that continues to keep the solenoid locked in place, no matter what one does with the key switch!   :o

     And, although some may not have experienced this failure, it does happen, even after its' been working fine for a duration, but one day............  ::)

      "Racers have been doing this for years."

     And this reminds of the GM "one-wire" alternators as racers have been using for decades;  although practiced, and it also "sorta" works, these really aren't intended as a "one-wire" alternator!   ;)

     Scott.     
« Last Edit: December 09, 2022, 05:50:09 PM by pbf777 »

68GT350roadracer

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Re: Mini starter
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2022, 09:34:12 AM »
pbf777 thanks for your reply. The wiring method I use, using the starter side not the BAT side of solenoid. Keeps the heavy gauge starter lead going to the starter from being hot all the time. Which was answering JessC original question. I do not doubt the currently available (off-shore) solenoids do not carry the load as well as the originals or even the aftermarket solenoids available in the 70's and 80's did. Everyone using the now available (off-shore) solenoids, even with original or original style starters have that problem to worry about. I did not think about E.C.U.'s. Which even the retro fit aftermarket fuel injection units have. You are absolutely correct. Thanks for pointing this out, JessC and others needed to know this. My car still has a carburetor. Using the key switch to energize the fender mounted stock style solenoid. Keeps the starter from energizing the fender mounted solenoid, even if the starter does stay engaged in the flywheel/flexplate. I am obviously not an engineering expert either. Thanks again for your information.

Roger

shelbydoug

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Re: Mini starter
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2022, 09:51:17 AM »
I just skimmed through this thread so if this has been mentioned, I apologize but in my experience the fix to many of the hard starting issues, including less then 100% performance from any starter has to do with the heavy battery cables in the car.

The original cables are just too small of a gauge. They should all be replaced by at least a single 0 if not a 00 gauge cable.
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