Author Topic: The problem with EFI conversion over keeping carburetors  (Read 1494 times)

shelbydoug

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Re: The problem with EFI conversion over keeping carburetors
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2023, 08:16:39 AM »
“I want to use EFI because it is easier to tune.” -some guy with an AOL email address (probably)

The current crop of EFI systems are self learning. You install them and let them do their thing.

Personally I don't think they are the right call on a classic Shelby.

The switch over physically is not an easy transition at all. There is "a bit" of challenge to it.

These cars all have quirks that in some cases are unique to the Shelby line and strangely enough are part of the mystique. Taking the carbs out is not the way to go at all.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2023, 08:34:56 AM by shelbydoug »
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Re: The problem with EFI conversion over keeping carburetors
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2023, 08:08:51 AM »
So the consensus is :

they are good until they are bad.......
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Drew Pojedinec

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Re: The problem with EFI conversion over keeping carburetors
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2023, 09:38:08 PM »
“I want to use EFI because it is easier to tune.” -some guy with an AOL email address (probably)

The current crop of EFI systems are self learning. You install them and let them do their thing.

Uh huh. That isn’t what everyone who is throwing one in the trash and buying a carb from me say.

I have no issue with efi. I have issue with people thinking it is a magic wand. You cannot buy your way out of learning how to tune an engine.

shelbydoug

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Re: The problem with EFI conversion over keeping carburetors
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2023, 08:17:55 AM »
“I want to use EFI because it is easier to tune.” -some guy with an AOL email address (probably)

The current crop of EFI systems are self learning. You install them and let them do their thing.

Uh huh. That isn’t what everyone who is throwing one in the trash and buying a carb from me say.

I have no issue with efi. I have issue with people thinking it is a magic wand. You cannot buy your way out of learning how to tune an engine.

Well it does depend on what ones own definition of "better" is.


It is not an "easy" conversion on a pre-efi car. Personally knowing more then a few "street rodders", I'm not surprised at one making a statement like that. Thinking about it, I've never seen them chew gum and walk at the same time? I wonder if that is significant?

There are decisions that must be made in the EFI component selection that are not part of the ECU's purpose to decide.


The self learning concept can be over ridden and you can rewrite the programs baseline strategies. Do you need to know what you are doing with that? Sure thing but there are capabilities that the EFI systems have that are not possible with carbs.

It does help if the installer/owner is not a Neanderthal and does not try to "fix" something by hitting it with a club, like some have done with carbs I might point out.


Personally I am perfectly happy with my 2-4 Holley setups on my GT350 and GT500. The Webers are a different story all together, but putting down self learning EFI systems without specific knowledge of what is going on is just foolish and just going to come back and bite you. Well maybe not actually bite, but certainly make earlier uneducated statements embarrassing.

I can't imagine how ridiculous both of my engines would look replacing them with dual throttle bodies and considering that both are very good running examples of '60s maximum carburetion strategies, why mess with them at all?


As an old school guy to begin with, I am always slow to admit the improvements in going from analog to digital systems. Current music recordings and photography are good examples but there are still "artists" around that work in 16 track and film.

Different strokes for different folks. Different ways on different days. No one is wrong. Each just have different perspectives, have their own reasons for that and their own definition of what is good and what is disappointing.

Some of these points are what opens up the Weber 48ida set ups to criticisms or more correctly statements of disappointment. They are not going to make your 289 pull like a 427. A "funny thing" about that though. At wide open throttle, they pull just like an 8 stack EFI system does. They just get there differently with what some might refer to as "low rpm driveability concerns".


It should be pointed out that none of the systems are perfect. Neither are the people involved or the decisions that they make. That I think is part of the reasoning. Imperfect systems created by imperfect creatures.

In drag racing at least, there is a reason that there are "grudge matches" and no one can deny that was motivation between Shelby, Ford and Ferrari, not to mention GM.

Some of us learned to enjoy the spectacle of the bickering and later put our own toes in the water to see what it felt like and one of the side effects being feeling the frustrations of making the systems work for us.


For me it's all fun. Others will never be satisfied or ever could be.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 08:29:58 AM by shelbydoug »
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Re: The problem with EFI conversion over keeping carburetors
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2023, 08:44:07 AM »
“I want to use EFI because it is easier to tune.” -some guy with an AOL email address (probably)

The current crop of EFI systems are self learning. You install them and let them do their thing.

Uh huh. That isn’t what everyone who is throwing one in the trash and buying a carb from me say.

I have no issue with efi. I have issue with people thinking it is a magic wand. You cannot buy your way out of learning how to tune an engine.

Well it does depend on what ones own definition of "better" is.


It is not an "easy" conversion on a pre-efi car. Personally knowing more then a few "street rodders", I'm not surprised at one making a statement like that. Thinking about it, I've never seen them chew gum and walk at the same time? I wonder if that is significant?

There are decisions that must be made in the EFI component selection that are not part of the ECU's purpose to decide.


The self learning concept can be over ridden and you can rewrite the programs baseline strategies. Do you need to know what you are doing with that? Sure thing but there are capabilities that the EFI systems have that are not possible with carbs.

It does help if the installer/owner is not a Neanderthal and does not try to "fix" something by hitting it with a club, like some have done with carbs I might point out.


Personally I am perfectly happy with my 2-4 Holley setups on my GT350 and GT500. The Webers are a different story all together, but putting down self learning EFI systems without specific knowledge of what is going on is just foolish and just going to come back and bite you. Well maybe not actually bite, but certainly make earlier uneducated statements embarrassing.

I can't imagine how ridiculous both of my engines would look replacing them with dual throttle bodies and considering that both are very good running examples of '60s maximum carburetion strategies, why mess with them at all?


As an old school guy to begin with, I am always slow to admit the improvements in going from analog to digital systems. Current music recordings and photography are good examples but there are still "artists" around that work in 16 track and film.

Different strokes for different folks. Different ways on different days. No one is wrong. Each just have different perspectives, have their own reasons for that and their own definition of what is good and what is disappointing.

Some of these points are what opens up the Weber 48ida set ups to criticisms or more correctly statements of disappointment. They are not going to make your 289 pull like a 427. A "funny thing" about that though. At wide open throttle, they pull just like an 8 stack EFI system does. They just get there differently with what some might refer to as "low rpm driveability concerns".


It should be pointed out that none of the systems are perfect. Neither are the people involved or the decisions that they make. That I think is part of the reasoning. Imperfect systems created by imperfect creatures.

In drag racing at least, there is a reason that there are "grudge matches" and no one can deny that was motivation between Shelby, Ford and Ferrari, not to mention GM.

Some of us learned to enjoy the spectacle of the bickering and later put our own toes in the water to see what it felt like and one of the side effects being feeling the frustrations of making the systems work for us.


For me it's all fun. Others will never be satisfied or ever could be.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it"
Living RENT FREE in your minds...

Home of the Hertz Musketeers 

A person without a sense of humor is like a wagon without springs.  It's jolted by every pebble on the road

I have all UNGOLD cars

I am certainly not a Shelby Expert

Life is short B happy

shelbydoug

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Re: The problem with EFI conversion over keeping carburetors
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2023, 09:05:25 AM »

[/quote]

"If it ain't broke don't fix it"
[/quote]

Excellent point!
68 GT350 Lives Matter!

crossboss

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Re: The problem with EFI conversion over keeping carburetors
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2023, 09:39:07 AM »
My worthless two cents...
The best, and most reliable cabs 'I' have used: OEM Autolite/Motorcraft 4300 series, Autolite 4100 series, Carter/Edelbrock, and the QJ.
Past owned Shelby's:
1968 GT-350--Gold
1970 GT-500--#3129--Grabber Orange.
Current lifelong projects:
1969 Mustang Fastback/FOX chassis, 5 speed, 4 wheel discs, with a modern Can-Am 494 (Boss 429), Kaase heads, intake with a 1425 cfm 'B' Autolite Inline carb, ala Trans-Am style
1968/70 Olds 442 W-30

68stangcjfb

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Re: The problem with EFI conversion over keeping carburetors
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2023, 12:03:02 PM »
Three of the collector cars I have have Holleys on them. They run well and I rarely have to adjust them. Another car has an Autolite 4100. Same deal. That being said, I installed a Fitech 400 hp system on my friends 1970 El Camino mild 383 small block about 5 years ago and he hasn't had a single issue with it and he loves it. He likes it because he doesn't know much about cars. I prefer the carburetors because more than likely they're not going to get you stuck someplace. If you have some knowledge, you can usually get them going. Electronic ignitions are great too but they can get you stuck also. When I go on a trip in one of my cars I always carry a points distributor just in case the electronic system fails.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 12:08:50 PM by 68stangcjfb »
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