What is crossing the line?

[shelbymann1970]

We see so many cars here from various selling venues and platforms. Many times the cars are discussed on the forum. So when is it crossing the line commenting on them? I mean, when you see a car that has so much going on with it you think it could be a rebody and such do you keep quiet and let the seller portray it as a car it isn't? Do you point out the warning signs? Or do you just keep quiet and if potential buyers don't seek expert advice on the car then it is a "fool with money is easily parted"? Now I'm not talking about a changed deck lid or doors which we see on 69-70s a lot. 1 piece floor pan on a decent car.  I'm talking about cars to the point there are serious issues with them. Is it good for our hobby to have people ripped off by sellers as it is their own fault for trusting a seller(back to my quotation) or seller's friends or the ignorantly blissed who call these cars great in their posts(when they are not)?. Anyways once in a while a car like that rear its ugly head. Everyone has opinions and they are just that. I'd like to hear opinions on both sides on this. Thanks. Gary

[Side-Oilers]

My $.02:   I consider it very valuable to be able to discuss the various Shelby products up for sale/auction. 

We are all still learning about these cars...even the most knowledgeable among us will occasionally point-out a unique (proper & correct) detail they just discovered about particular Shelbys.  That's great for all of us.

Where it gets to bug me is with the snarky type of posts that sometimes show up here, and on auction sites (BaT in particular.) The truth is indeed the truth, but no one likes to watch their car get trashed during their own sale/auction.

That said, I'll bet that 99.83% of those same online sellers would appreciate a thoughtful post explaining the items that they may not know are incorrect. 

On the other end: The scammer-sellers will (hopefully) then realize they can't peddle their car for as much as they'd thought, and (depending on what they post as a reply) that can help all involved.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Unfortunately we live in a time where making some observations can get you sued. It doesn't matter if a car is an undisclosed rebody.  When you point that out you have reduced the price that someone may have gleaned from a newbie sucker. His attorneys will be in touch and expect you to make up his loss.....
If you notice the descriptions on BAT are very carefully worded to protect them and the seller from any falsehoods about the car. Your comments should also be as vague.

[Side-Oilers]

Brett:   Sad litigious state of the world today, but you are right. 

Although, I've never personally heard the outcome of such a suit where the disparaging person actually had to pay $$ to the disparaged seller.  (Not that I know anything. I have not done a search on this.)

Anyone can sue anyone, and it all costs $$ and time to defend.  And, yes, the scammers will resort to almost anything to sell their phony/POS cars. It all sucks.  Have I said recently that I hate the Internet?

Richard:  Can you help here?  Have you ever heard of a successful suit regarding a car's loss of value, based on someone's online post? Where the evil poster had to pay actual money as restitution?

BTW:  I've been going back-and-forth on trying to decide to sell my vintage Mopar up, or not. I don't have it in me anymore to counter every single post by some disruptor whose only mission is to cause havoc.  The "don't-really-know-it-alls" (but think they do) fall just below that on the level of wasting my time. I'm always happy to answer any questions, requests for docs, photos, etc., from serious and polite buyers.  As it should be.  It's the a-holes and time-wasters posting on popular sites like BaT who make those venues less appealing for me to use. 

Anyone have a great suggestion on where to best sell a top quality, low mile, survivor car?  "Best" for all the reasons listed above, and in terms of getting a good price for a unique (but relatively overlooked) make/model of vintage car. I'm talking a $35-40k car. ('71 Chrysler Imperial.)

I hate eBay (for several reasons) and won't use them.
I hate "big tent extravaganza" style car auctions (for even more reasons.)
Hemmings has deteriorated, IMO, (don't sue me!) and their online traffic is abysmal (an insider told me this.)
Car club sites are usually good places to post for sale ads.
Where else?

Apologies for straying off topic.

[98SVT - was 06GT]

Anyone have a great suggestion on where to best sell a top quality, low mile, survivor car?  "Best" for all the reasons listed above, and in terms of getting a good price for a unique (but relatively overlooked) make/model of vintage car. I'm talking a $35-40k car. ('71 Chrysler Imperial.)

Car club sites are usually good places to post for sale ads.

Even Craigslist charges for car ads now.
Clubs seem to be the best place anymore. Everywhere you go all you seem to get is cilckyloos that want to collect pictures and fill your inbox with stupid questions all followed up with a 1/3 asking price offer.
One guy I know recently complained about Hemmings - he bought the $149.00 package and ended up with one 1/2 price offer.

[deathsled]

"If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it." Marcus Aurelius

That said, I have not heard about a suit, be it successful or not, about someone being sued for damages for a loss in value to a sale of a car due to a comment made about the car online.  That does not preclude the existence of such a suit somewhere in these fifty states but now you have peaked my curiosity.

First, one would have to show causation.  For example, but for the comment posted, would the car have sold for the asking price.  That would be a tough burden to show because how can you prove it would have sold for X price but for the posting?  It would be problematic though for a poster to make a claim about a specific car for sale if an agreement had already been reached between the seller and the buyer and then a poster comes along with a posting that disparages the car and kills the sale.  That could fall under tortious interference with contract, which is a viable cause of action and can get you sued.

Quick definition of tortious interference here infra.

"Tortious interference is a common law tort allowing a claim for damages against a defendant who wrongfully interferes with the plaintiff's contractual or business relationships. See also intentional interference with contractual relations."

Second, anyone wanting to litigate such an issue needs to know that most if not all lawyers will only take the case on an hourly basis as opposed to contingency fee so be prepared to put down at least a $2,500 retainer to start things and be billed at least $250 an hour and likely much more.  That retainer will get eaten up fast and you will be replenishing soon and before you know it you are at $10,000 in legal fees and still climbing.  So a balancing test needs to be considered.  Is the loss taken on the sale in excess of potential lawyer fees or is it a wash? 

Third, just because no such case has been litigated, does NOT mean it cannot be litigated in the future.  The term is known as a "case of first impression" and you don't want to be the proverbial "poster boy" (pun intended) for creating a new body of law. 

Fourth, let's say you get a judgment against the poster.  What's next?  Enforcement and collection of the judgment.  Well, the defendant can declare bankruptcy to discharge the debt depending on their solvency.  It will likely fall under the wing of a Chapter 7 and now your judgment is uncollectible plus you are out all those legal fees.  Even if they cannot declare bankruptcy, then you must do a citation to discover assets and try to collect.  Good luck with that.  Let me know how it works out for you.

Fifth, truth is an absolute defense.  If what the poster is spewing about said car happens to be true, then I'd say the defendant has a good affirmative defense to the plaintiff (but not necessarily so if a contract has already been formed and we are back to tortious interference with a contract.)

So choose your words carefully seems to be what I am saying.  And is it one's obligation to save everyone in the world?  Some cannot be helped no matter what you do.

That is all.

[deathsled]

Here is a case I just found on the heels of this posting.  Dana Mecum had an interest in the case as one of the buyers interestingly enough.  Case decided 2019.  Though not directly on point, it gives one an idea about the possibility of tortious interference litigation.  The case of Hamann v. Carpenter involved the sale of a 1953 Ferrari 375MM Pininfarina Spyder.  Enjoy.

https://casetext.com/case/hamann-v-carpenter-1

The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit appears to allow the tortious interference count to go forward while dismissing some of plaintiff's other counts.  Don't know what happened at the trial level on remand.

[Side-Oilers]

Richard, thanks for the research.  The Mecum case sounds complicated.  Glad I'm not a lawyer.

What do we owe you for your expert opinion?  (That's a joke...don't sue me to try and collect.). 

[deathsled]

No money owed, Van.  It was all pro bono.

[shelbymann1970]

No money owed, Van.  It was all pro bono.

Here is another thing I always wondered about is how does one prove what was typed was done by the actual typist? I could be typing this right now. Or my wife. Or one of my kids. Or someone hacked my account. How could a plaintiff prove that what was typed was actually done by the defendant? "my dog was loose and was hitting my keyboard" 
I ran into this situation 2 decades ago about a certain "prototype Shelby". We all in the know know what it is and I have had history with the car going back to the early 80s as have members here but when 1 person mentioned lawsuit on another forum at the time(SAAC forum didn't exist yet) I just dropped the car entirely and don't type about it at all.

[Coralsnake]

And I believe, that unless you are posting Hillary Clinton memes, you are still entitled to post your opinions.

[shelbymann1970]

Unfortunately we live in a time where making some observations can get you sued. It doesn't matter if a car is an undisclosed rebody.  When you point that out you have reduced the price that someone may have gleaned from a newbie sucker. His attorneys will be in touch and expect you to make up his loss.....
If you notice the descriptions on BAT are very carefully worded to protect them and the seller from any falsehoods about the car. Your comments should also be as vague.

Here is a great example of BaT wording on a stock  car. All these cars have documented history but the first line is " This Toyota Camry is a NASCAR race car that is said to have been campaigned by Denny Hamlin before being re-bodied and spending time as a show car for Joe Gibbs Racing."  So was it or not? There are log books on every car so they could say definitively in the auction if it was or wasn't.   https://bringatrailer.com/listing/nascar-toyota-camry/

[deathsled]

No money owed, Van.  It was all pro bono.

Here is another thing I always wondered about is how does one prove what was typed was done by the actual typist? I could be typing this right now. Or my wife. Or one of my kids. Or someone hacked my account. How could a plaintiff prove that what was typed was actually done by the defendant? "my dog was loose and was hitting my keyboard" 
I ran into this situation 2 decades ago about a certain "prototype Shelby". We all in the know know what it is and I have had history with the car going back to the early 80s as have members here but when 1 person mentioned lawsuit on another forum at the time(SAAC forum didn't exist yet) I just dropped the car entirely and don't type about it at all.

Ding Ding DING! Yes!!

Buuuut, many people like to snitch on themselves making damaging admissions particularly at accident scenes and in criminal matters.  More people talk than clam up.  Admissions are an exception to the hearsay rule and are admitted in evidence.  Remember that testimony is evidence as well as tangible objects that are called demonstrative evidence.  Can someone lie and claim that you made some admission?  Yes, of course but it cuts both ways.  The admission goes to weight and credibility of the witness but will be considered by the court and heard by the jury.  If the prejudice of the evidence is outweighed by its probative value, then the evidence may not be admitted.  Like extremely graphic photos of an accident scene that might inflame the jury. 

[Greg]

No money owed, Van.  It was all pro bono.

Here is another thing I always wondered about is how does one prove what was typed was done by the actual typist? I could be typing this right now. Or my wife. Or one of my kids. Or someone hacked my account. How could a plaintiff prove that what was typed was actually done by the defendant? "my dog was loose and was hitting my keyboard" 
I ran into this situation 2 decades ago about a certain "prototype Shelby". We all in the know know what it is and I have had history with the car going back to the early 80s as have members here but when 1 person mentioned lawsuit on another forum at the time(SAAC forum didn't exist yet) I just dropped the car entirely and don't type about it at all.

First off, if you are man or woman enough to make the comment, be man or woman enough to say you did and own it.  Only a coward hides and my 2 cents, let the purchaser do the checking.  It is not your or my job to "police" the community because if you are wrong, yes we all can be :-)... you do open yourself up to liability.  I for one am not going to put the blame on my wife and kids and nor should anyone else to theirs.  If you hurt a seller who owns a 6 figure car with blasfemous comments, true or not, you could be paying an attorney bill well into the 6 figures which you will not get back even if you win.  Some of these guys have a lot of money and more than willing to just to pay attorneys and hurt you just because they can.  Be very careful.

[Coralsnake]

I like the "shelby police" / good old boy argument. These guys dont want to share the information they have. Its a secret society.

I guess I am going to keep my comments a lot more general and people that want the information can pay for it. That seems to be the best path...